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Thread: Gas Prices

  1. #1
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    Gas Prices

    Which of the following is causing gas prices to skyrocket?

    1) Oil shortage
    2) Greedy Oil Companies
    3) Government Stupidity
    4) EPA refusal to let oil companies build more refiniries?

    How about a combo of 3 and 4!

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    Federal Reserve Inflation

    The Federal Reserve is buying up bonds from banks with money printed out of thin air and selling it like it has intrinsic value... when you do this you cause inflation. The dollar is worth 1/3 of what it was in 1998 and oil prices are 3 times as high. Answer: Deflate the dollar... deflate the gas prices.

    Here is a chart pricing gas in gold and if you bought gas in gold today it would be cheaper than ten years ago... amazing right?

    [IMG]http://pricedingold.com/charts/Gas-1997.png[/IMG]

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    [QUOTE=MnJetFan;2476520]Which of the following is causing gas prices to skyrocket?

    1) Oil shortage
    2) Greedy Oil Companies
    3) Government Stupidity
    4) EPA refusal to let oil companies build more refiniries?

    How about a combo of 3 and 4![/QUOTE]

    [SIZE="4"]5) Speculation...[/SIZE]

    always first to blame environmentalists, aren't you. OMG! It's all the tree huggers fault. Jeez...constant blaming of granola-ites is just as ludicrous as blaming "corporations"...big bad evil Volvo driving beatnik!

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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2476860][SIZE="4"]5) Speculation...[/SIZE]

    always first to blame environmentalists, aren't you. OMG! It's all the tree huggers fault. Jeez...constant blaming of granola-ites is just as ludicrous as blaming "corporations"...big bad evil Volvo driving beatnik![/QUOTE]

    well the same people who blame our government for everything, including gas prices, won't let that same government drill in Alaska, which could a) possibly lower gas prices, b) rid ourselves of our dependence somewhat on the middle east.

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    The EPA is part of the government oil companies have asked for years to build new refiniries and the EPA tells them no. The environmental crowd has gone hog wild and just about everyone knows it except themselves! BTW I dont drive a Volvo I like Nissan!

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    [QUOTE=MnJetFan;2476886]The EPA is part of the government oil companies have asked for years to build new refiniries and the EPA tells them no. The environmental crowd has gone hog wild and just about everyone knows it except themselves! BTW I dont drive a Volvo I like Nissan![/QUOTE]

    It's not the EPA that tells them no. It's the people who don't want to live near a refinery. Not to mention that refineries have to positions in coastal areas, so Nevada is not an alternative. When you consider that refineries are not supposed to be built within 50 miles of population centers, and the coast is densely populated, it's hard to find places to put one that will not be quickly protested. Refineries are notoriously not people friendly... Don't blame the EPA; you wouldn't want one in your backyard either...

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    [QUOTE=mallamalla;2476871]well the same people who blame our government for everything, including gas prices, won't let that same government drill in Alaska, which could a) possibly lower gas prices, b) rid ourselves of our dependence somewhat on the middle east.[/QUOTE]


    Not too far in the future, Canada will be one of the biggest oil producers in the world, due to the shale oil fields it holds that are now economically feasible to tap. We also have not utilized natural gas at anywhere near the levels we should. Natural gas powered cars should be a real option, but there is simply no push for them, despite their viability.

  8. #8
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    Gas prices are no different than corn prices, wheat prices, copper or gold prices.

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    gas is still cheap imho

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    [QUOTE=mallamalla;2476871]b) rid ourselves of our dependence [B][SIZE="3"]somewhat [/SIZE][/B]on the middle east.[/QUOTE]

    Ha! Somewhat...

    Can you guess how much oil that the US drills for we end up exporting?



    And drilling in ANWAR is useless..

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    [url]http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7010615007[/url]

    North Dakota-Montana Oil Well Has 4.3 Billion More Barrels Of Reserves

    April 12, 2008 12:56 a.m. EST

    Windsor Genova - AHN News Writer

    Bismarck, ND (AHN) - An oil well in the Bakken area of North Dakota and Montana contains 4.3 billion more barrles of oil reserves, a new assessment by the U.S. Geological Survey indicates.

    USGS released the revised estimate Thursday of oil reserves in the Bakken shale formation, a 25,000-square-mile area that extends to Canada's Saskatchewan and Manitoba provinces.

    In its original study in 1995, the agency found 150 million barrels of recoverable oil from the Bakken using technology at the time. [I]The additional reserve is 25 times the initial estimate[/I] and makes the oil well's reserves the largest outside of Alaska.

    Other articles point out there's quite possibly much more to recover from this site alone. My suspicion is the oil will be exported for a higher profit, so the in the end game we're effed anyway.

    No matter what the case, I can't wait til an alternative breaks the backs of these bastards. Until then, everyone else suffers.

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    [QUOTE=jefethegreat;2476811]The Federal Reserve is buying up bonds from banks with money printed out of thin air and selling it like it has intrinsic value... when you do this you cause inflation. The dollar is worth 1/3 of what it was in 1998 and oil prices are 3 times as high. Answer: Deflate the dollar... deflate the gas prices.

    Here is a chart pricing gas in gold and if you bought gas in gold today it would be cheaper than ten years ago... amazing right?

    [IMG]http://pricedingold.com/charts/Gas-1997.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]



    "The dollar is worth 1/3 of what it was in 1998." One step further shows that the dollar is worth .04 of what is was when the federal reserve act came into being in 1913.:eek:

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    [QUOTE=frostlich;2476947][url]http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7010615007[/url]

    North Dakota-Montana Oil Well Has 4.3 Billion More Barrels Of Reserves

    April 12, 2008 12:56 a.m. EST

    Windsor Genova - AHN News Writer

    Bismarck, ND (AHN) - An oil well in the Bakken area of North Dakota and Montana contains 4.3 billion more barrles of oil reserves, a new assessment by the U.S. Geological Survey indicates.

    USGS released the revised estimate Thursday of oil reserves in the Bakken shale formation, a 25,000-square-mile area that extends to Canada's Saskatchewan and Manitoba provinces.

    In its original study in 1995, the agency found 150 million barrels of recoverable oil from the Bakken using technology at the time. [I]The additional reserve is 25 times the initial estimate[/I] and makes the oil well's reserves the largest outside of Alaska.

    Other articles point out there's quite possibly much more to recover from this site alone. My suspicion is the oil will be exported for a higher profit, so the in the end game we're effed anyway.

    [B][U]No matter what the case, I can't wait til an alternative breaks the backs of these bastards. Until then, everyone else suffers.[/QUOTE]
    [/U][/B]


    I couldn't agree more!

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    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2476892]It's not the EPA that tells them no. It's the people who don't want to live near a refinery. Not to mention that refineries have to positions in coastal areas, so Nevada is not an alternative. When you consider that refineries are not supposed to be built within 50 miles of population centers, and the coast is densely populated, it's hard to find places to put one that will not be quickly protested. Refineries are notoriously not people friendly... Don't blame the EPA; you wouldn't want one in your backyard either...[/QUOTE]

    There are the same people *****ing about the price of gas, the price of electricity and so on. BTW I have a refinary not to far from me!

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    [QUOTE=MnJetFan;2477306]There are the same people *****ing about the price of gas, the price of electricity and so on. BTW I have a refinary not to far from me![/QUOTE]

    You're right... I completely forgot about pipeline fed refineries, particularly from Canadian fields.

  16. #16
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    Is the EPA telling them no, or are the standards to hard to meet in order to build a refinery?

  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=cr726;2477349]Is the EPA telling them no, or are the standards to hard to meet in order to build a refinery?[/QUOTE]

    From [url]www.citizen.org[/url]

    Myths and Facts about Oil Refineries in the United States

    The Bush administration and some members of Congress blame environmental rules for causing strains on refining capacity, prompting shortages and driving up prices. But in reality, it is uncompetitive actions by a handful of companies with large control over our nation’s gas markets that is directly causing these high prices.

    Myth 1: Oil refineries are not being built in the U.S. because environmental regulations, particularly the Clean Air Act, are so bureaucratic and burdensome that refiners cannot get permits.

    Fact: Environmental regulations are not preventing new refineries from being built in the U.S. From 1975 to 2000, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) received only one permit request for a new refinery. And in March, EPA approved Arizona Clean Fuels’ application for an air permit for a proposed refinery in Arizona. In addition, oil companies are regularly applying for – and receiving – permits to modify and expand their existing refineries.[1]

    Myth 2: The U.S. oil refinery market is competitive.

    Fact: Actually, industry consolidation is limiting competition in oil refining sector. The largest five oil refiners in the United States (ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillips, BP, Valero and Royal Dutch Shell) now control over half (56.3%) of domestic oil refinery capacity; the top ten refiners control 83%. Only ten years ago, these top five oil companies only controlled about one-third (34.5%) of domestic refinery capacity; the top ten controlled 55.6%. This dramatic increase in the control of just the top five companies makes it easier for oil companies to manipulate gasoline supplies by intentionally withholding supplies in order to drive up prices. Indeed, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) concluded in March 2001 that oil companies had intentionally withheld supplies of gasoline from the market as a tactic to drive up prices—all as a “profit-maximizing strategy.” A May 2004 U.S. Governmental Accountability Office (GAO) report also found that mergers in the oil industry directly led to higher prices—and this report did not even include the large mergers after the year 2000, such as ChevronTexaco and ConocoPhillips. Yet, just one week after Hurricane Katrina, the FTC approved yet another merger of refinery giants—Valero Energy and Premcor—giving Valero 13% of the national market share. These actions, while costing consumers billions of dollars in overcharges, have not been challenged by the U.S. government.

    Myth 3: The United States has maxed out its oil refining capability.

    Fact: Oil companies have exploited their strong market position to intentionally restrict refining capacity by driving smaller, independent refiners out of business. A congressional investigation uncovered internal memos written by the major oil companies operating in the U.S. discussing their successful strategies to maximize profits by forcing independent refineries out of business, resulting in tighter refinery capacity. From 1995-2002, 97% of the more than 920,000 barrels of oil per day of capacity that have been shut down were owned and operated by smaller, independent refiners. Were this capacity to be in operation today, refiners could use it to better meet today’s reformulated gasoline blend needs.

    Profit margins for oil refiners have been at record highs. In 1999, for every gallon of gasoline refined from crude oil, U.S. oil refiners made a profit of 22.8 cents. By 2004, the profits jumped 80% to 40.8 cents per gallon of gasoline refined. Between 2001 and mid-2005, the combined profits for the biggest five refiners was $228 billion.

    Gutting environmental laws for oil refinery siting will not solve the high gas prices.

    So what should be done?

    Improve regulations over the over-concentrated oil industry
    The most effective way to protect consumers is to restore competitive markets. Congress should limit the financial incentives oil companies have to keep gasoline supplies artificially tight by mandating minimum storage of gasoline, reevaluating recent mergers, investigating anticompetitive practices, and re-regulating oil trading.

    Adopt tougher fuel economy standards
    In 2004, the EPA found that the average fuel economy of 2004 vehicles is 20.8 miles per gallon (mpg), compared to 22.1 mpg in 1987—a six percent decline. This decline is attributable to the fact that fuel economy standards have not been meaningfully increased since the 1980s, while sales of fuel inefficient SUVs and pickups have exploded: in 1987, 28% of new vehicles sold were light trucks, compared to 48% in 2004. Billions of gallons of oil could be saved if significant fuel economy increases were mandated. Improving fuel economy standards for passenger vehicles from 27.5 to 40 mpg, and for light trucks (including SUVs and vans) from 20.7 to 27.5 mpg by 2015 would reduce our gasoline consumption by one-third. Dramatic reductions in consumption will not only reduce strain on America’s refinery output, but also on Americans’ pocketbooks.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [1] Committee on Government Reform Hearing, “Potential Energy Crisis in the Winter of 2000” 106th Congress, (Sept. 20-21, 2000). [url]http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/useftp.cgi?IPaddress=162.140.64.21&filename=74099.wais&directory=/disk2/wais/data/106_house_hearings[/url]

  18. #18
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    Maybe someone can answer this for me, but how much is the average barrel or gallon of gas taxed? I'd be interested in knowing how much fed. taxes play into the high gas prices.

  19. #19
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    Not sure about the barrel, but I think the fed gets 60 cents or so per gallon.
    I think the manipulaton of the market is a better explanation.

    [QUOTE=Mavrik;2477667]Maybe someone can answer this for me, but how much is the average barrel or gallon of gas taxed? I'd be interested in knowing how much fed. taxes play into the high gas prices.[/QUOTE]

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2477371]From [url]www.citizen.org[/url]

    Myths and Facts about Oil Refineries in the United States

    The Bush administration and some members of Congress blame environmental rules for causing strains on refining capacity, prompting shortages and driving up prices. But in reality, it is uncompetitive actions by a handful of companies with large control over our nation’s gas markets that is directly causing these high prices.

    Myth 1: Oil refineries are not being built in the U.S. because environmental regulations, particularly the Clean Air Act, are so bureaucratic and burdensome that refiners cannot get permits.

    Fact: Environmental regulations are not preventing new refineries from being built in the U.S. From 1975 to 2000, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) received only one permit request for a new refinery. And in March, EPA approved Arizona Clean Fuels’ application for an air permit for a proposed refinery in Arizona. In addition, oil companies are regularly applying for – and receiving – permits to modify and expand their existing refineries.[1]

    Myth 2: The U.S. oil refinery market is competitive.

    Fact: Actually, industry consolidation is limiting competition in oil refining sector. The largest five oil refiners in the United States (ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillips, BP, Valero and Royal Dutch Shell) now control over half (56.3%) of domestic oil refinery capacity; the top ten refiners control 83%. Only ten years ago, these top five oil companies only controlled about one-third (34.5%) of domestic refinery capacity; the top ten controlled 55.6%. This dramatic increase in the control of just the top five companies makes it easier for oil companies to manipulate gasoline supplies by intentionally withholding supplies in order to drive up prices. Indeed, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) concluded in March 2001 that oil companies had intentionally withheld supplies of gasoline from the market as a tactic to drive up prices—all as a “profit-maximizing strategy.” A May 2004 U.S. Governmental Accountability Office (GAO) report also found that mergers in the oil industry directly led to higher prices—and this report did not even include the large mergers after the year 2000, such as ChevronTexaco and ConocoPhillips. Yet, just one week after Hurricane Katrina, the FTC approved yet another merger of refinery giants—Valero Energy and Premcor—giving Valero 13% of the national market share. These actions, while costing consumers billions of dollars in overcharges, have not been challenged by the U.S. government.

    Myth 3: The United States has maxed out its oil refining capability.

    Fact: Oil companies have exploited their strong market position to intentionally restrict refining capacity by driving smaller, independent refiners out of business. A congressional investigation uncovered internal memos written by the major oil companies operating in the U.S. discussing their successful strategies to maximize profits by forcing independent refineries out of business, resulting in tighter refinery capacity. From 1995-2002, 97% of the more than 920,000 barrels of oil per day of capacity that have been shut down were owned and operated by smaller, independent refiners. Were this capacity to be in operation today, refiners could use it to better meet today’s reformulated gasoline blend needs.

    Profit margins for oil refiners have been at record highs. In 1999, for every gallon of gasoline refined from crude oil, U.S. oil refiners made a profit of 22.8 cents. By 2004, the profits jumped 80% to 40.8 cents per gallon of gasoline refined. Between 2001 and mid-2005, the combined profits for the biggest five refiners was $228 billion.

    Gutting environmental laws for oil refinery siting will not solve the high gas prices.

    So what should be done?

    Improve regulations over the over-concentrated oil industry
    The most effective way to protect consumers is to restore competitive markets. Congress should limit the financial incentives oil companies have to keep gasoline supplies artificially tight by mandating minimum storage of gasoline, reevaluating recent mergers, investigating anticompetitive practices, and re-regulating oil trading.

    Adopt tougher fuel economy standards
    In 2004, the EPA found that the average fuel economy of 2004 vehicles is 20.8 miles per gallon (mpg), compared to 22.1 mpg in 1987—a six percent decline. This decline is attributable to the fact that fuel economy standards have not been meaningfully increased since the 1980s, while sales of fuel inefficient SUVs and pickups have exploded: in 1987, 28% of new vehicles sold were light trucks, compared to 48% in 2004. Billions of gallons of oil could be saved if significant fuel economy increases were mandated. Improving fuel economy standards for passenger vehicles from 27.5 to 40 mpg, and for light trucks (including SUVs and vans) from 20.7 to 27.5 mpg by 2015 would reduce our gasoline consumption by one-third. Dramatic reductions in consumption will not only reduce strain on America’s refinery output, but also on Americans’ pocketbooks.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [1] Committee on Government Reform Hearing, “Potential Energy Crisis in the Winter of 2000” 106th Congress, (Sept. 20-21, 2000). [url]http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/useftp.cgi?IPaddress=162.140.64.21&filename=74099.wais&directory=/disk2/wais/data/106_house_hearings[/url][/QUOTE]

    How do you overcharge consumers and force smaller companies out of business at the same time? The way to force smaller companies out is to price below what they can sell for and forcing them to sell out. This smells like BS to me.

    Could it be that margins aren't all that great and profits are off the charts because of scale?

    Could it be that investing huge amounts into refineries where environmental regulations and additive compounds to meet those regulations change regularly, making investment of huge sums of money for a relatively low margin business high risk?

    Could it be that our government has no long term energy plan and routinely subsidizes different areas of energy making any large capital investment in any one particular area extremely risky long term and is a set up for boom and bust, exactly what we have seen in the last two cycles minipulated by government intervention through tax policy, subsidies and government spending?

    Business is in a conspiracy to earn profits and increase profits, and I think the more time Congress investigates this conspiracy instead of manipulating our economy by legislating the better off we wil be long term.

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