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Thread: The Smallness of Our Politics on Display at the ABC Debate

  1. #1

    The Smallness of Our Politics on Display at the ABC Debate

    The Smallness of Our Politics on Display at the ABC Debate
    The Reverend Wright controversy, the flag pin controversy, and the William Ayers controversy were all dying or dead. Now, they're back in the headlines.

    In lieu of questions on education, the environment, trade, health care, or almost any other serious issue, the moderators of Wednesday's Democratic presidential primary debate on ABC chose to reinvigorate what Barack Obama called "manufactured" issues.

    "Manufactured" issues are ones the media and the blogosphere believe should be a big deal, and treat as such, even if there is little evidence that voters really care about them. They are less frequently about a controversial position on a serious topic, since no mainstream presidential candidate ever dares to take one of those, than they are guilt-by-association situations that say little or nothing about the candidate him or herself.

    William Ayers is a perfect example of this. Ayers was part of a domestic terror group from the '60s and '70s called the Weather Underground or the Weathermen. Obama knows Ayers and his wife, also a member of the Weather Underground, because they ran in the same Chicago political circles in the 1990s. Ayers hosted the event in which Obama was unveiled as a state senate candidate, and gave money to Obama's state senate reelection campaign in 2001. The men are not friends, though they have been described in the past as friendly. Ayers, now a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago, declines to disavow his past, leaving Obama open to headlines like "Obama worked with terrorist."

    [B]In Obama's response to questions about Ayers in the debate today, he pointed out the absurdity of the guilt-by-association game that so often captures the daily coverage of presidential politics.

    …the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago when I was 8 years old, somehow reflects on me and my values, doesn't make much sense...

    The fact is, is that I'm also friendly with Tom Coburn, one of the most conservative Republicans in the United States Senate, who during his campaign once said that it might be appropriate to apply the death penalty to those who carried out abortions.
    Do I need to apologize for Mr. Coburn's statements? Because I certainly don't agree with those either.

    So this kind of game, in which anybody who I know, regardless of how flimsy the relationship is, is somehow -- somehow their ideas could be attributed to me -- I think the American people are smarter than that. They're not going to suggest somehow that that is reflective of my views, because it obviously isn't. [/B]

    [url]http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/04/7996_the_smallness_o.html[/url]

  2. #2
    You [U]spin[/U] me right round baby, right round, like a record baby, right round, round round......

    How DO we know how friendly he's been with Ayers? Because till now, the major media hasn't asked, and even now, they;re not exactly asking further, or verifying anything.

    I guess we can just take Obama's word, after all he's cool and ironic (right Bit), so he must be trustworthy too. I'm sure his association with Racist Ministers and Domestic Terrorists is perfectly legit, non-stories than are SO unimportant, no one shoud even ask about them or investiage them.

    Anyone who does ask about these non-issues is clearly a racist anyway.

    And after all, Obama says he is "change", and he has "hope". Isn't that enough?

  3. #3
    Anyone else notice how uncomfortable Obama has looked in front of the camera the past week or so?

  4. #4
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2485932]
    I guess we can just take Obama's word, after all he's cool and ironic (right Bit), so he must be trustworthy too. [/QUOTE]

    more trustworthy than Hillary.

    Warfish this isn't a contest between Obama, Clinton and Ron Paul. The Candidates are who they are, and if you aren't going to vote in the Democratic primary, and not going to vote for ANY democrat, it's not really your business, is it?

  5. #5
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    [QUOTE=JerseyJet2007;2485938]Anyone else notice how uncomfortable Obama has looked in front of the camera the past week or so?[/QUOTE]

    Not really...

    Did you notice the camera lights reflecting off of John Mccain's cataracts this week.

  6. #6
    [QUOTE=JerseyJet2007;2485938]Anyone else notice how uncomfortable Obama has looked in front of the camera the past week or so?[/QUOTE]

    I don't know if it's discomfort, it might be fatigue. Hillary is on another planet, she thrives in these desperate stressful situations, but most people would be exhausted after 15 months of constant campaign. I think we are seeing fatigue from Obama.

  7. #7
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2485944]Not really...

    Did you notice the camera lights reflecting off of John Mccain's cataracts this week.[/QUOTE]

    Is this how you plan to beat Mac in the Fall? Just make fun of him and his age???

  8. #8
    [QUOTE]And so the point I was making was that when people feel like Washington's not listening to them, when they're promised year after year, decade after decade, that their economic situation is going to change, and it doesn't, then politically they end up focusing on those things that are constant, like religion.

    They end up feeling "This is a place where I can find some refugee. This is something that I can count on." They end up being much more concerned about votes around things like guns, where traditions have been passed on from generation to generation. And those are incredibly important to them.

    And yes, what is also true is that wedge issues, hot-button issues, end up taking prominence in our -- in our politics. And part of the problem is that when those issues are exploited, we never get to solve the issues that people really have to get some relief on, whether it's health care or education or jobs.

    So this i something that I've said before. It is something that I will repeat again. And yes, people are frustrated and angry about it, but what we're seeing in this election is the opportunity to break through that frustration. And that's what our campaign has been about, saying that if the American people get involved and engaged, then we are going to start seeing change. And that's what makes this election unique. [/QUOTE]

    This was the problem last night for Obama, he thinks that Americans expect Government to solve their problems and when it doesn't they look toward faith, guns, and wedge issues. Here's a clue, most Americans don't count on the government for their livelihood, health care, cars, gas, food, etc. They never believed that Government could solve their problems and the reason he doesn't get it is because he has a classic liberal elitist attitude which is fully in play in his answer above.

    We do need an efficient bureaucracy because we spend a boatload of money in our Government, but we aren't hearing Obama address that, what we are hearing is income redistribution, wind fall profits taxes, huge increases in cap gains taxes and large subsidies.

    He was defensive and he was poor on the issues. Overall it was a bad night for him and you can complain all you want about the moderation, which was awful, but it doesn't change the fact that the kid gloves are off and he had a terrible performance both on the "wedge" and "real" issues.

  9. #9
    [QUOTE=bitonti;2485943]more trustworthy than Hillary.

    Warfish this isn't a contest between Obama, Clinton and Ron Paul. The Candidates are who they are, and if you aren't going to vote in the Democratic primary, and not going to vote for ANY democrat, it's not really your business, is it?[/QUOTE]

    "Not my Business", eh? Guess that whole Citizenship, one man, one vote thing doesn't carry much weight in the Bit household.....

    Obama or Clinton, one of them will very likely be the next President. As such, I have every right to care, and question, thanks.

  10. #10
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    [QUOTE=JerseyJet2007;2485958]Is this how you plan to beat Mac in the Fall? Just make fun of him and his age???[/QUOTE]

    I plan I beating him? I'm not running for office this year...maybe I will in '12.

    But it's easy to poke fun at McKerry...as it is against Obama Woods and Hilarity Clintoon...

  11. #11
    How could anyone watch that with so much good basketball on last night?

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2485932][B]You [U]spin[/U] me right round baby, right round, like a record baby, right round, round round......[/B]

    How DO we know how friendly he's been with Ayers? Because till now, the major media hasn't asked, and even now, they;re not exactly asking further, or verifying anything.

    I guess we can just take Obama's word, after all he's cool and ironic (right Bit), so he must be trustworthy too. I'm sure his association with Racist Ministers and Domestic Terrorists is perfectly legit, non-stories than are SO unimportant, no one shoud even ask about them or investiage them.

    Anyone who does ask about these non-issues is clearly a racist anyway.

    And after all, Obama says he is "change", and he has "hope". Isn't that enough?[/QUOTE]

    spin??? you expected objectivity from mother jones????

  13. #13
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    Maybe MotherJones is spinning to deflect attention from Obama's lie.

    [B]Obama lied in ABC Philadelphia debate over flag pin[/B]

    Andy Martin
    2008-04-17 10:59:35 - Once again, Andy Martin exposes Senator Barack Obama as someone who lies about facts.


    ANDY MARTIN
    Executive Editor
    ContrarianCommentary.com

    'Factually Correct, Not
    Politically Correct'

    [B]OBAMA CAUGHT IN ANOTHER LIE[/B]

    (NEW YORK)(April 17, 2008)(Exclusive) Senator Barack Obama was caught in another lie Wednesday, April 16th when he denied ever having made a statement refusing to wear a flag pin:

    On April 16th, Obama said (excerpt from nytimes.com transcript):

    [I][B]I have never said that I don't wear flag pins or refuse to
    wear flag pins.[/B][/I]

    [url]www.nytimes.com/2008/04/16/us/politics/16text-debate.html?pagewa[/url] ..

    On October 4, 2007 Obama stated:

    Obama Stops Wearing Flag Pin, Says He'll Show Patriotism Through Ideas
    By DAVID WRIGHT and SUNLEN MILLER
    Oct. 4, 2007 -
    An eagle-eyed reporter for the ABC affiliate in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, noticed something missing from Democratic presidential contender Sen. Barack Obama's, D-Ill., lapels.
    "You don't have the American flag pin on. Is that a fashion statement?" the reporter asked, at the end of a brief interview with Obama on Wednesday. "Those have been on politicians since Sept. 12, 2001."
    Catch David Wright's report tonight on "World News with Charles Gibson."
    The standard political reply to that question might well have been, "My patriotism speaks for itself."
    But Obama didn't say that.
    Instead the Illinois senator answered the question at length, explaining that he no longer wears such a pin, at least in part, because of the Iraq War.
    "You know, the truth is that right after 9/11, I had a pin," Obama said. "Shortly after 9/11, particularly because as we're talking about the Iraq War, that became a substitute for I think true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security, I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest.
    "Instead," he said, "I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great, and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism."
    In Iowa, some Obama supporters applauded the candidate's fashion statement. Said Carrie Haurum of Waterloo: "He doesn't need to wear that flag on his lapel. He wears it in his heart."
    But talk radio and cable news quickly pounced on the issue.
    "It just shows you he's not ready for the big time," conservative Laura Ingrams opined on Fox News.
    Said Sean Hannity: "Why do we wear pins? Because our country is under attack!"
    The Obama campaign declined to expand on the senator's statement. Spokesman Bill Burton said, "His comments speak for themselves."
    But, Obama responded to the mini controversy.
    "I'm less concerned with what you're wearing on your lapel than what's in your heart," Obama said Thursday while campaigning in Independence, Iowa.
    "You show your patriotism by how you treat your fellow Americans, especially those who serve. And you show your patriotism by being true to your values and ideals. And that's what we have to lead with, our values and ideals," Obama said.
    Of course, if he had said that in the first place, he might have avoided any controversy.
    Obama is not alone in not wearing the Stars and Stripes pin.
    Most of the candidates do not wear them. The one big exception: former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, who is rarely without one.
    Democrat John Edwards almost always wears his late son's Outward Bound pin.
    Hillary Clinton tends not to wear the flag pin, although ABC News off-air reporter Eloise Harper has found several images where she does.
    "Well I think there are so many ways that Americans can show their patriotism," she said. "Wearing a flag pin, flying the flag, pledging allegiance to the flag, talking about the values that are important to America, teaching your children about what a great nation we have, standing up for those values, speaking out, there is just so many ways that one can demonstrate patriotism."
    Her husband, former President Bill Clinton, wears a Hillary pin.
    Copyright © 2008 ABC News Internet Ventures

  14. #14
    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY;2485991]spin??? you expected objectivity from mother jones????[/QUOTE]

    :zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz:

  15. #15
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    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2486016]Maybe MotherJones is spinning to deflect attention from Obama's lie.

    [B]Obama lied in ABC Philadelphia debate over flag pin[/B]

    Andy Martin
    2008-04-17 10:59:35 - Once again, Andy Martin exposes Senator Barack Obama as someone who lies about facts.


    ANDY MARTIN
    Executive Editor
    ContrarianCommentary.com

    'Factually Correct, Not
    Politically Correct'

    [B]OBAMA CAUGHT IN ANOTHER LIE[/B]

    (NEW YORK)(April 17, 2008)(Exclusive) Senator Barack Obama was caught in another lie Wednesday, April 16th when he denied ever having made a statement refusing to wear a flag pin:

    On April 16th, Obama said (excerpt from nytimes.com transcript):

    [I][B]I have never said that I don't wear flag pins or refuse to
    wear flag pins.[/B][/I]

    [url]www.nytimes.com/2008/04/16/us/politics/16text-debate.html?pagewa[/url] ..

    On October 4, 2007 Obama stated:

    Obama Stops Wearing Flag Pin, Says He'll Show Patriotism Through Ideas
    By DAVID WRIGHT and SUNLEN MILLER
    Oct. 4, 2007 -
    An eagle-eyed reporter for the ABC affiliate in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, noticed something missing from Democratic presidential contender Sen. Barack Obama's, D-Ill., lapels.
    "You don't have the American flag pin on. Is that a fashion statement?" the reporter asked, at the end of a brief interview with Obama on Wednesday. "Those have been on politicians since Sept. 12, 2001."
    Catch David Wright's report tonight on "World News with Charles Gibson."
    The standard political reply to that question might well have been, "My patriotism speaks for itself."
    But Obama didn't say that.
    Instead the Illinois senator answered the question at length, explaining that he no longer wears such a pin, at least in part, because of the Iraq War.
    "You know, the truth is that right after 9/11, I had a pin," Obama said. "Shortly after 9/11, particularly because as we're talking about the Iraq War, that became a substitute for I think true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security, I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest.
    "Instead," he said, "I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great, and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism."
    In Iowa, some Obama supporters applauded the candidate's fashion statement. Said Carrie Haurum of Waterloo: "He doesn't need to wear that flag on his lapel. He wears it in his heart."
    But talk radio and cable news quickly pounced on the issue.
    "It just shows you he's not ready for the big time," conservative Laura Ingrams opined on Fox News.
    Said Sean Hannity: "Why do we wear pins? Because our country is under attack!"
    The Obama campaign declined to expand on the senator's statement. Spokesman Bill Burton said, "His comments speak for themselves."
    But, Obama responded to the mini controversy.
    "I'm less concerned with what you're wearing on your lapel than what's in your heart," Obama said Thursday while campaigning in Independence, Iowa.
    "You show your patriotism by how you treat your fellow Americans, especially those who serve. And you show your patriotism by being true to your values and ideals. And that's what we have to lead with, our values and ideals," Obama said.
    Of course, if he had said that in the first place, he might have avoided any controversy.
    Obama is not alone in not wearing the Stars and Stripes pin.
    Most of the candidates do not wear them. The one big exception: former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, who is rarely without one.
    Democrat John Edwards almost always wears his late son's Outward Bound pin.
    Hillary Clinton tends not to wear the flag pin, although ABC News off-air reporter Eloise Harper has found several images where she does.
    "Well I think there are so many ways that Americans can show their patriotism," she said. "Wearing a flag pin, flying the flag, pledging allegiance to the flag, talking about the values that are important to America, teaching your children about what a great nation we have, standing up for those values, speaking out, there is just so many ways that one can demonstrate patriotism."
    Her husband, former President Bill Clinton, wears a Hillary pin.
    Copyright © 2008 ABC News Internet Ventures[/QUOTE]

    it's just a small lie...:D

  16. #16
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2485932]You [U]spin[/U] me right round baby, right round, like a record baby, right round, round round......

    How DO we know how friendly he's been with Ayers? Because till now, the major media hasn't asked, and even now, they;re not exactly asking further, or verifying anything.

    I guess we can just take Obama's word, after all he's cool and ironic (right Bit), so he must be trustworthy too. I'm sure his association with Racist Ministers and Domestic Terrorists is perfectly legit, non-stories than are SO unimportant, no one shoud even ask about them or investiage them.

    Anyone who does ask about these non-issues is clearly a racist anyway.

    And after all, Obama says he is "change", and he has "hope". Isn't that enough?[/QUOTE]


    The problem is that all of this is so one-sided. I don't see the major media hopping on any of McCains associations with ministers who claim Islam is evil and that it is the divine duty of America to eradicate it. How come his associations are not even discussed. Liberal media my ass!

  17. #17
    What does this quote have to do with mother Jones or any other site for that matter?:zzz::zzz: Its a direct quote from the debate!

    [I]In Obama's response to questions about Ayers in the debate today, he pointed out the absurdity of the guilt-by-association game that so often captures the daily coverage of presidential politics.

    …the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago when I was 8 years old, somehow reflects on me and my values, doesn't make much sense...

    The fact is, is that I'm also friendly with Tom Coburn, one of the most conservative Republicans in the United States Senate, who during his campaign once said that it might be appropriate to apply the death penalty to those who carried out abortions.
    Do I need to apologize for Mr. Coburn's statements? Because I certainly don't agree with those either.

    So this kind of game, in which anybody who I know, regardless of how flimsy the relationship is, is somehow -- somehow their ideas could be attributed to me -- I think the American people are smarter than that. They're not going to suggest somehow that that is reflective of my views, because it obviously isn't. [/I]
    Last edited by intelligentjetsfan; 04-17-2008 at 01:09 PM.

  18. #18
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    [QUOTE=Eversteady;2486030]The problem is that all of this is so one-sided. I don't see the major media hopping on any of McCains associations with ministers who claim Islam is evil and that it is the divine duty of America to eradicate it. How come his associations are not even discussed. Liberal media my ass![/QUOTE]

    they already have...

    of course in the mind of liberals association w/minister = worshipping for two decades under a minister like wright who you've admitted to consistently seeking council from and already named to your campaign as a spiritual advisor (or whatever it was).....

    fact is they haven't even touched on many of the hardcore issues for obama such as his voting record....

  19. #19
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2485964]"Not my Business", eh? Guess that whole Citizenship, one man, one vote thing doesn't carry much weight in the Bit household.....

    Obama or Clinton, one of them will very likely be the next President. As such, I have every right to care, and question, thanks.[/QUOTE]

    maybe im wrong but you seem to hate them both. It's not a constructive position to take.

    and actually if you aren't a democrat it's not your place to vote.

    I did something very shameful the other day and registered democratic in PA. I just don't see what your role is in this situation, hating on both parties. Do you hate one less than the other?

    If you hate them both a ton, this debate really isn't relevant for you.

  20. #20
    [QUOTE=Eversteady;2486030]The problem is that all of this is so one-sided. I don't see the major media hopping on any of McCains associations with ministers who claim Islam is evil and that it is the divine duty of America to eradicate it. How come his associations are not even discussed. Liberal media my ass![/QUOTE]

    Because his associations didn't come out on 9/11 and support the GD terrorist thats why!

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