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Thread: Gasoline Prices

  1. #41
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    [QUOTE=2foolish197;2497438]you know how many companies moved out of new york?[/QUOTE]

    These were replaced and then some.

    Plus people do not only use mass transit to go to work.

    NYC would not work without mass transit, yet the average person uses far less gasoline than the average American.

  2. #42
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    [QUOTE=2foolish197;2497431]yes you need transport links but less and less people will be centralized and work closer to or at home in relation to their jobs ,again how important is mass transit? most suburbs don't have transport links.what are the mass transit options in the southwest or south?[/QUOTE]

    Few today. But almost every major city-center either has a system in development/planning, or a fledgling system already up and running of some kind.

    While technology will have the effect we've discussion on lowering commuting in general, workplace centers will not dissapear completely for some time, if ever.

    Part of the trouble is that outside the major cities (NY, Chicago, LA, Seattle to name a few), Commuter Service has been a lost art for either a long time, or in many cases (the southwest) forever. Amtrak cannot and has not filled the void left when the freight railroads left the business inthe 70's, and even then the passenger rail market was in deep and serious decline nationwide, due to the surge in air travel and the continue expansion of auto commuing.

    As the importance and relevance of mass transit is rediscovered, more system will be built, and more development will surround them. They are not the answer in and of themselves of course, but a key to the future.

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2497485]Few today. But almost every major city-center either has a system in development/planning, or a fledgling system already up and running of some kind.

    While technology will have the effect we've discussion on lowering commuting in general, workplace centers will not dissapear completely for some time, if ever.

    Part of the trouble is that outside the major cities (NY, Chicago, LA, Seattle to name a few), Commuter Service has been a lost art for either a long time, or in many cases (the southwest) forever. Amtrak cannot and has not filled the void left when the freight railroads left the business inthe 70's, and even then the passenger rail market was in deep and serious decline nationwide, due to the surge in air travel and the continue expansion of auto commuing.

    As the importance and relevance of mass transit is rediscovered, more system will be built, and more development will surround them. They are not the answer in and of themselves of course, but a key to the future.[/QUOTE]

    Very nicely stated!

  4. #44
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    [QUOTE=Big Blocker;2497459]These were replaced and then some.

    Plus people do not only use mass transit to go to work.

    NYC would not work without mass transit, yet the average person uses far less gasoline than the average American.[/QUOTE]no i'm not saying mass transit doens't work here.mass transit is great except for the station at 34/sixth.an absolute disgrace.i'm saying i don't know if future working generations are going to be reliying on mass transit systems like we do.

  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=2foolish197;2497564]no i'm not saying mass transit doens't work here.mass transit is great except for the station at 34/sixth.an absolute disgrace.i'm saying i don't know if future working generations are going to be reliying on mass transit systems like we do.[/QUOTE]

    I will refrain from making a prediction with any certainty in that regard, but I think it more likely they will be using mass transit than autos getting 11-15 mpg.

  6. #46
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    [QUOTE=2foolish197;2497564]i'm saying i don't know if future working generations are going to be reliying on mass transit systems like we do.[/QUOTE]

    What the heck do you think the 8 million+ people in the NYC area are gonna do "in the future"? Flap their arms? Are they going to widen all the streets so everyone can drive their Ford Focus to work?

  7. #47
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2497211]Like city planners and architects? Fair enough for a city. Just don't see how that relates to ex-urbs when your contention is that, from a "planning" persepctive, ex-urbs are "terrible" land "use" and environmentally reckless. What does that mean, specifically, and from whose "planning" perspective? Surely not the people who paid for the land they own and use in these ex-urbs? I live in a suburb about 15-20 miles south of Boston. I consider my land use to be terrific, especially as I plan for my family's future....[/QUOTE]

    I don't consider 15-20 miles exurban. That's suburban distance in a city the size of Boston.

    The primary problem with exurbs (say, people commuting from as much as 40+ miles out) is that they exacerbate sprawl and lead to greater pollution.

  8. #48
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2497580]I don't consider 15-20 miles exurban. That's suburban distance in a city the size of Boston.

    The primary problem with exurbs (say, people commuting from as much as 40+ miles out) is that they exacerbate sprawl and lead to greater pollution.[/QUOTE]

    What's wrong with sprawl? What data backs up the "greater pollution" argument?

  9. #49
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    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2497617]What's wrong with sprawl? What data backs up the "greater pollution" argument?[/QUOTE]

    [url]http://www.cdc.gov/healthyplaces/articles/Urban%20Sprawl%20and%20Public%20Health%20-%20PHR.pdf[/url]

  10. #50
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2497579]What the heck do you think the 8 million+ people in the NYC area are gonna do "in the future"? Flap their arms? Are they going to widen all the streets so everyone can drive their Ford Focus to work?[/QUOTE]
    no,they are probably going to work from home.

  11. #51
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    [QUOTE=Big Blocker;2497573]I will refrain from making a prediction with any certainty in that regard, but I think it more likely they will be using mass transit than autos getting 11-15 mpg.[/QUOTE]i don't think the future will be too bright for autos getting that kind of gas mileage.

  12. #52
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2497636][url]http://www.cdc.gov/healthyplaces/articles/Urban%20Sprawl%20and%20Public%20Health%20-%20PHR.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]

    cdc.gov?!?!? Why that is a government publication! Socialistic by definition!

    I don't even need to read the article to refute it, let alone understand the points and submit countering arguments!

    They obviously have nothing to say! Now, if you want to see what The Weekly Standard or Fox News has to say about this, then we will have something to talk about!

  13. #53
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2497636][url]http://www.cdc.gov/healthyplaces/articles/Urban%20Sprawl%20and%20Public%20Health%20-%20PHR.pdf[/url][/QUOTE]

    Thanks. Not really a ton of hard data in there, and even their conclusions mentioned benefits and costs to urban sprawl, just included the standard stuff about global warming affecting poor people the most and all. In fact, the paucity of data was striking and it was very Atlanta-centric and had no data that I saw showing that overall pollution was worse in Atlanta now than when it was a smaller city. I also want to know why ex-urbs are 'environmentally reckless', while this deals with more of urban sprawl, which is related to exurbs but not really the meat of what I was getting into. Thanks though, interesting article.

  14. #54
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2497485]Few today. But almost every major city-center either has a system in development/planning, or a fledgling system already up and running of some kind.

    While technology will have the effect we've discussion on lowering commuting in general, workplace centers will not dissapear completely for some time, if ever.

    Part of the trouble is that outside the major cities (NY, Chicago, LA, Seattle to name a few), Commuter Service has been a lost art for either a long time, or in many cases (the southwest) forever. Amtrak cannot and has not filled the void left when the freight railroads left the business inthe 70's, and even then the passenger rail market was in deep and serious decline nationwide, due to the surge in air travel and the continue expansion of auto commuing.

    As the importance and relevance of mass transit is rediscovered, more system will be built, and more development will surround them. They are not the answer in and of themselves of course, but a key to the future.[/QUOTE]also,the price of commuting into big cities(ny) is becoming prohibited.how much does a monthly pass cost on the LIRR?

  15. #55
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    [QUOTE=2foolish197;2497773]also,the price of commuting into big cities(ny) is becoming prohibited.how much does a monthly pass cost on the LIRR?[/QUOTE]

    No idea off the top of my head, but I'd assume someplace in the $200 to $300 range.

    Something else to consider by the way....in many major city areas, employers get tax breaks (a subsidy) to provide their employees with "Transit Benifits" that can only be spent on mass transit.

    So if you take that into consideration, even the amount collected at the fare box (50-60% of operational cost remember) isn't even a legitimate indicator of how much actual private funding is made by riders. I know that one agency takes in ~65-70% of their fare revenue in such transit benefits.

    That is the hurdle of Mass Transit in America today. Not that it's a workable option, it is and once people try it they almost universally like it in my experience when compared to driving. It's the idea that to exist it requires that almost all of the cost be borne by the entire tax paying population, when only a very small minority actually uses/benefits from the service.

    again, I support mass transit (how liberal of me, lawl!) but one must be realistic about how difficult this hurdle is to overcome.

  16. #56
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    Mass transit serves a social benefit of reducing energy costs of transporting workers (more so by train than bus) and of reducing traffic congestion and carbon emmissions in central cities. Hence the logic of subsidization.

  17. #57
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2497833]No idea off the top of my head, but I'd assume someplace in the $200 to $300 range.

    Something else to consider by the way....in many major city areas, employers get tax breaks (a subsidy) to provide their employees with "Transit Benifits" that can only be spent on mass transit.

    So if you take that into consideration, even the amount collected at the fare box (50-60% of operational cost remember) isn't even a legitimate indicator of how much actual private funding is made by riders. I know that one agency takes in ~65-70% of their fare revenue in such transit benefits.

    That is the hurdle of Mass Transit in America today. Not that it's a workable option, it is and once people try it they almost universally like it in my experience when compared to driving. It's the idea that to exist it requires that almost all of the cost be borne by the entire tax paying population, when only a very small minority actually uses/benefits from the service.

    again, I support mass transit (how liberal of me, lawl!) but one must be realistic about how difficult this hurdle is to overcome.[/QUOTE]

    Warfish,

    You can benefit from mass transit even without using it directly. If you drive, there's less traffic because of mass transit. If you breathe, the air is less dirty because of mass transit. If you own a business, your employees cost of getting to work is cheaper because of mass transit. And so on and so forth.

  18. #58
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2497887]Warfish,

    You can benefit from mass transit even without using it directly. If you drive, there's less traffic because of mass transit. If you breathe, the air is less dirty because of mass transit. If you own a business, your employees cost of getting to work is cheaper because of mass transit. And so on and so forth.[/QUOTE]

    Indeed. I am sure I could lecture you for days on the variety of benefits of Mass Transit my friend. Please do not mistake my discussion of the realities of cost with any kind of lack of support. I know the industry exceedingly well, and I have a deep support for it's work and efforts.

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    [QUOTE=Big Blocker;2497871]Mass transit serves a social benefit of reducing energy costs of transporting workers (more so by train than bus) and of reducing traffic congestion and carbon emmissions in central cities. Hence the logic of subsidization.[/QUOTE]
    i don't know about that traffic congestion arguement...

  20. #60
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2497920]Indeed. I am sure I could lecture you for days on the variety of benefits of Mass Transit my friend. Please do not mistake my discussion of the realities of cost with any kind of lack of support. I know the industry exceedingly well, and I have a deep support for it's work and efforts.[/QUOTE]

    I think we agree entirely on this, so no sense arguing over it!

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