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Thread: Serious Question(s) for Obama Supporters

  1. #1
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    Serious Question(s) for Obama Supporters

    Yes, it has to do with Wright, although, only as Wright pertains to Obama's truthfulness.


    So, Obama gave that Big Speech in March where he said he couldn't disown Wright any more than he can disown the black community, that it would be foolish to dismiss Wright as a demegogue, etc etc etc.

    Now, Obama seems to have changed his tune.

    So, was the March speech all political BS? Is this current denunciation all political BS? If the contention is that neither is political BS, how is that possible?

    Further, as some conservative commentators have (rightly, IMO) pointed out, Wright's speeches these past few days do not leave the impression that Wright suddenly discovered this rhetorical style or substance recently. It all seems very honed and practiced. Do you agree or do you think Wright all of a sudden started speaking in such a way? So, do any of you believe that Obama is being less than completely truthful when he says, essentially, that he had no idea Wright spoke in such a way until now?

    I know that Wright is not Obama and Obama is not Wright and I was not going to vote for Obama anyway and agree that too much is being made about Wright's views influencing Obama's. I don't think Obama is a racist moron like Wright. I am concerned with the truthfulness and judgment Obama has shown in reacting to this "scandal." Has the way Obama has responded to this issue made any of you even slightly question your belief or contention that Obama is most definitely not just a typical politician? I have to be honest, from where I'm sitting, Obama seems to be a run of the mill politician.

    Additionally, do you agree with the NY Post which essentially says that Wright is p*ssed off at Obama for his March speech and is intentionally trying to hurt him now as payback? If so, how worried are you about the next six months or so before the GE, when Wright can say all sorts of things (and perhaps back them up?) regarding how Obama was well aware of Wright's "controversial" views and agreed with them or at the very least never challenged them until it became politically expedient for him to do so, blah blah blah. Wright has a loose tongue and seems to love the spotlight. If he's p*ssed off, how damaging could he be?

    Lastly, why did Obama change course all of a sudden? Why did he [I]now[/I] disown Wright (essentially) when he would not before and made a big deal about why he "couldn't?" Seems like he did so pretty easily now and all Wright did was essentially repeat and stand by all of the stuff we already knew about. Is it possible the statements like the "those comments are just cherry-picked snippets taken out of context" rationalizations Obama's defenders used previously were less than 100% accurate, in your view?
    Last edited by jets5ever; 04-30-2008 at 01:39 PM.

  2. #2
    Obams nomination=President McCain

  3. #3
    Obama mishandled from the beginning. If he was going to throw under the bus he should have done it months ago. Now it looks like he is trying to save face!

  4. #4
    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2517597]Yes, it has to do with Wright, although, only as Wright pertains to Obama's truthfulness.


    So, Obama gave that Big Speech in March where he said he couldn't disown Wright any more than he can disown the black community, that it would be foolish to dismiss Wright as a demegogue, etc etc etc.

    Now, Obama seems to have changed his tune.

    So, was the March speech all political BS? Is this current denunciation all political BS? If the contention is that neither is political BS, how is that possible?

    Further, as some conservative commentators have (rightly, IMO) pointed out, Wright's speeches these past few days do not leave the impression that Wright suddenly discovered this rhetorical style or substance recently. It all seems very honed and practiced. Do you agree or do you think Wright all of a sudden started speaking in such a way? So, do any of you believe that Obama is being less than completely truthful when he says, essentially, that he had no idea Wright spoke in such a way until now?

    I know that Wright is not Obama and Obama is not Wright and I was not going to vote for Obama anyway and agree that too much is being made about Wright's views influencing Obama's. I don't think Obama is a racist moron like Wright. I am concerned with the truthfulness and judgment Obama has shown in reacting to this "scandal." Has the way Obama has responded to this issue made any of you even slightly question your belief or contention that Obama is most definitely not just a typical politician? I have to be honest, from where I'm sitting, Obama seems to be a run of the mill politician.

    Additionally, do you agree with the NY Post which essentially says that Wright is p*ssed off at Obama for his March speech and is intentionally trying to hurt him now as payback? If so, how worried are you about the next six months or so before the GE, when Wright can say all sorts of things (and perhaps back them up?) regarding how Obama was well aware of Wright's "controversial" views and agreed with them or at the very least never challenged them until it became politically expedient for him to do so, blah blah blah. Wright has a loose tongue and seems to love the spotlight. If he's p*ssed off, how damaging could he be?

    [B]Lastly, why did Obama change course all of a sudden? Why did he [I]now[/I] disown Wright (essentially) when he would not before and made a big deal about why he "couldn't?[/B]" Seems like he did so pretty easily now and all Wright did was essentially repeat and stand by all of the stuff we already knew about. Is it possible the statements like the "those comments are just cherry-picked snippets taken out of context" rationalizations Obama's defenders used previously were less than 100% accurate, in your view?[/QUOTE]

    Because previously, Wright had not told a national audience that Obama was a liar.

  5. #5
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    Not an Obama supporter (other then against Hillary), but I'd ahve to say that Obama tried to do the right thing by not throwing his pastor under the bus and then ended up doing the right thing politically by throwing him under the bus..

    I believe Wright gave him the opening to do it, and a big part of me believes the whole thing was contrived..

    In short Obama is a politican, but I still find him to be more straightforward then most. Look no further then the gas tax holiday situation, I loved his line in regards to it:

    [QUOTE=Barry O] "This isn't an idea designed to get you through the summer, it's an idea designed to get them through an election."[/QUOTE]

  6. #6
    The key line in Obama's remarks yesterday was Obama's declaration that the Wright Obama saw addressing the press club wasn't the same guy Obama felt he'd known for 20 years. He's saying Wright changed.

    That's not the same thing, mind you, as saying that Wright hasn't always been outspoken. He certainly has. And, in fact, when you read Obama's books you see that some of Wright's outspoken tendencies --his vociferous opposition to South African apartheid, his (rare in the black church) defense of gay rights, his admirable advocacy for Chicago's poorest citizens-- were what drew Obama to that church in the first place.

    But there is a difference between being outspoken and being full of sh!t, and Wright has increasingly been the latter with all this nonsense about AIDS and the like. To me, it fits the profile of a guy perhaps losing touch with reality as he gets older. We all know older folks who occasionally say wingbat stuff.

    As far as the departure from the "can't disown" line, I think what changed is obvious: Wright disowned Obama first. Obama took a tremendous risk in standing up for him, in saying --probably accurately-- that the statements were taken out of context and that --while inappropriate and wrong-- they shouldn't offset a career full of good works.

    Wright responded to this with what appears to be an attempt at political sabotage. Rush Limbaugh described him --and I can't believe I'm quooting Rush for truth-- as a race hustler who views a black president as a threat to his business of racial grievance. (We've seen similar behavior toward Obama from Sharpton re: Sean Bell lately, actually.) And his response is instead to raise racially divisive conspiracy theories that run directly counter to Obama's message of reconciliation.

    So I think, basiscally, that not being willing to disown someone over soundbites on YouTube is different than not being willing to disown someone for stabbing you in the back and working against everythng you stand for in a vein attempt to agrandize themeselves.

  7. #7
    [QUOTE=CTM;2517673]Not an Obama supporter (other then against Hillary), but I'd ahve to say that Obama tried to do the right thing by not throwing his pastor under the bus and then ended up doing the right thing politically by throwing him under the bus..

    I believe Wright gave him the opening to do it, and a big part of me believes the whole thing was contrived..

    In short Obama is a politican, but I still find him to be more straightforward then most. Look no further then the gas tax holiday situation, I loved his line in regards to it:[/QUOTE]

    Has there ever been a more naked pander than this goofy gas tax idea? What dumb policy.

    For one thing, the per family savings is a joke, only like $30 over three months. For another, the increased demand from marginally lower prices will likely lead to prices rising again. And, for another, do politicians who claim to be concerned about global warming and greenhouse emissions really need to encourage people to drive more during the summer?

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    [QUOTE=maury420;2517643]Because previously, Wright had not told a national audience that Obama was a liar.[/QUOTE]

    Exactly my thought. But Obama was then not truthful at all when he said he couldn't disown Wright. And he didn't rip him for calling him a liar, he stated it was Wright's views. So Obama is lying about at least two things.

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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2517693]Has there ever been a more naked pander than this goofy gas tax idea. What dumb policy.

    For one thing, the per family savings is a joke, only like $30 over three months. For another, the increased demand from marginally lower prices will likely lead to prices rising again. And, for another, do politicians who claim to be concerned about global warming and greenhouse emissions really need to encourage people to drive more during the summer?[/QUOTE]

    yes, yes and yes.

    Not to mention that the local station, distributor and refineries will all take a chunk of that 18 cents as well.

    The thing that worries me is that people will actually by it now that Clinton is running around claiming that Obama doesn't care about american families.

    God I hate politics...

  10. #10
    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2517698]Exactly my thought. But Obama was then not truthful at all when he said he couldn't disown Wright. And he didn't rip him for calling him a liar, he stated it was Wright's views. So Obama is lying about at least two things.[/QUOTE]

    J5E, as I wrote above, there's a difference between saying you can't disown someone over soundbites on YouTube and saying you will disown them over their stabbing you in the back.

  11. #11
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    I think Obama was probably less than truthful when he explained that although sometimes Wright said somewhat controversial things he had never heard him say anything on par with the clips that had been shown. Those were from years ago and I highly doubt Obama, who donated 26K to the church last year alone, was coincidentially not around everytime something outrageous was said.

    Obama did what he thought he could to get this to pass without throwing the guy inder the bus because it also would have hurt him but now Wright has upped the stakes and practically said "Obama is lying to get elected" so he has to punch back.

    Not pretty at all. This Wright guy seems like a whack job and loves his time in the spotlight so I think he is here for the duration.

  12. #12
    I am not an Obama supporter, not in the least bit, but I cant help but feel for the guy in this situation. Two months ago, before anyone had ever heard the name Reverend Wright, I would say Obama was as near as a lock as you can get to become the next president. White voters were even clinging on to him as the democratic party basically backstabbed the Clinton's.

    Now this idiot, ala Al Sharpton, is seeing the opportunity to become the latest media whore for the lets feel sorry for ourselves and make excuses black denomination. Obama may have joined his church to get in with the black community in Chicago, who knows? But I do know that Obama does not share the same beliefs Wright does and the fact that Wright is now saying Obama would be saying different things if he werent a politician that are more in line with Wright's beliefs says Wright simply does not want Obama to be the next president. I guess an Obama presidency would hurt his cause that in America, blacks have no opportunity for success.

    It really is a shame.

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2517687]The key line in Obama's remarks yesterday was Obama's declaration that the Wright Obama saw addressing the press club wasn't the same guy Obama felt he'd known for 20 years. He's saying Wright changed.

    That's not the same thing, mind you, as saying that Wright hasn't always been outspoken. He certainly has. And, in fact, when you read Obama's books you see that some of Wright's outspoken tendencies --his vociferous opposition to South African apartheid, his (rare in the black church) defense of gay rights, his admirable advocacy for Chicago's poorest citizens-- were what drew Obama to that church in the first place.

    But there is a difference between being outspoken and being full of sh!t, and Wright has increasingly been the latter with all this nonsense about AIDS and the like. To me, it fits the profile of a guy perhaps losing touch with reality as he gets older. We all know older folks who occasionally say wingbat stuff.

    As far as the departure from the "can't disown" line, I think what changed is obvious: Wright disowned Obama first. Obama took a tremendous risk in standing up for him, in saying --probably accurately-- that the statements were taken out of context and that --while inappropriate and wrong-- they shouldn't offset a career full of good works.

    Wright responded to this with what appears to be an attempt at political sabotage. Rush Limbaugh described him --and I can't believe I'm quooting Rush for truth-- as a race hustler who views a black president as a threat to his business of racial grievance. (We've seen similar behavior toward Obama from Sharpton re: Sean Bell lately, actually.) And his response is instead to raise racially divisive conspiracy theories that run directly counter to Obama's message of reconciliation.

    So I think, basiscally, that not being willing to disown someone over soundbites on YouTube is different than not being willing to disown someone for stabbing you in the back and working against everythng you stand for in a vein attempt to agrandize themeselves.[/QUOTE]

    Obama changed his tune about the substance of Wright's comments, a substance that has not changed at all. I March, Obama saw an opportunity to stick by his black pastor and gain cred with the black vote and use it as a platform to launch into a Race Speech where he could look like he was a hero. The standard, Turn a Negative into a Positive strategy, and he was reasonably successful, aside from those unfortunate comments about his grandmother and "typical white people." Now, he is disowning Wright because Wright is exposing himself for what people rightly thought he was in March - a nutjob idiot. So Obama is not taking risks now, he's disowning him and playing defense like a typical politician because his team feels the costs of not disowning him outweight the benefits of his "March" strategy. That's how this game is played.

    We have no idea what Obama actually stands for, only what he says he stands for. And what he says changes based upon political circumstances...just his defense/disownment of Wright has changed based upon political circumstances. Just like his comments about trade change when he is campaigning in Ohio, his staffers are talking to Canucks or he is speaking to rich San Francisan liberals about "bitter" small-town rubes who cling to anti-trade sentiment whenever economic growht falls below 2% annualized (anti-trade sentiment that Obama tells them is justified!). Just like every other politician in the world.

    What is most interesting to me is that in the past Obama's supporters would say things like, "Wright may have phrased it badly, but you have to understand where he's coming from and he speaks to underlying truths, blah blah blah." Now, when Wright calls out Obama for giving a speech in March that was standard political BS fare, Wright is a back-stabber and idiot nutjob and of COURSE Obama is doing the right thing by disowning him. You soon find out that regardless of what Obama does, he's not a typical politician. It just makes no sense. I have no problem if people support him. He seems like a decent man and all. But why are people willing to twist themselves into pretzels defending and rationalizing Obama? He's a standard political hack - look at his roots in Chicago, for God's sake. They all are. Just admit it. Why cling to the fantasy?

  14. #14
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2517713]J5E, as I wrote above, there's a difference between saying you can't disown someone over soundbites on YouTube and saying you will disown them over their stabbing you in the back.[/QUOTE]

    It's a nice taking point Nuu, but it doesn't hold up under any scrutiny. The fact is, Obama "disowned" Wright laregly because of what Wright said. This is according to Obama's own words. And what Wright said was no different than the YouTube soundbites (another nice try), the only difference is that Wright called Obama a run of the mill politician in addition to his AIDS kookery. It was not solely the "run of the mill" politician line that Obama discussed, because that would be the backstabbing part. It was also the very things Obama said he couldn't disown Wright over that he is now disowning him over. If Obama has said, "Wright accused me of making a political speech and quesitoned my integrity. That speech was not political at all and every word of it was sincere" you may have a point. But Obama mentioned the kookery.
    Last edited by jets5ever; 04-30-2008 at 03:21 PM.

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    [QUOTE=mallamalla;2517748]I am not an Obama supporter, not in the least bit, but I cant help but feel for the guy in this situation. Two months ago, before anyone had ever heard the name Reverend Wright, I would say Obama was as near as a lock as you can get to become the next president. White voters were even clinging on to him as the democratic party basically backstabbed the Clinton's.

    Now this idiot, ala Al Sharpton, is seeing the opportunity to become the latest media whore for the lets feel sorry for ourselves and make excuses black denomination. Obama may have joined his church to get in with the black community in Chicago, who knows? But I do know that Obama does not share the same beliefs Wright does and the fact that Wright is now saying Obama would be saying different things if he werent a politician that are more in line with Wright's beliefs says Wright simply does not want Obama to be the next president. I guess an Obama presidency would hurt his cause that in America, blacks have no opportunity for success.

    It really is a shame.[/QUOTE]

    Good points, but some of this is self-inflicted by Obama. He could have handled this MUCH better than he has, IMO.

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2517693]Has there ever been a more naked pander than this goofy gas tax idea? What dumb policy.

    For one thing, the per family savings is a joke, only like $30 over three months. For another, the increased demand from marginally lower prices will likely lead to prices rising again. And, for another, do politicians who claim to be concerned about global warming and greenhouse emissions really need to encourage people to drive more during the summer?[/QUOTE]

    Agreed 100%.

  17. #17
    I would be willing to bet Obama has heard the same thing in church for the last twenty years and now Rev. Wright is saying it openly!

  18. #18
    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2517825]It's a nice taking point Nuu, but it doesn't hold up under any scrutiny. The fact is, Obama "disowned" Wright laregly because of what Wright said. This is according to Obama's own words. And what Wright said was no different than the YouTube soundbites (another nice try), the only difference is that Wright called Obama a run of the mill politician in addition to his AIDS kookery. It was not solely the "run of the mill" politician line that Obama discussed, because that would be the backstabbing part. It was also the very things Obama said he couldn't disown Wright over that he is now disowning him over. If Obama has said, "Wright accused me of making a political speech and quesitoned my integrity. That speech was not political at all and every word of it was sincere" you may have a point. But Obama mentioned the kookery.[/QUOTE]


    I think Wright's recent statements put the "kookery," as you call it, in a different light.

    Wright gives a lot of sermons. He's an emotional guy. Emotional people fly off the handle sometimes. I think Obama was basically unwilling to disown him over a few flights, if you will, particularly given that --from Obama's perspective-- this guy, for all his faults, brought him to Jesus, "saved him," etc. and Obama, as a Christian, probably felt some sort of debt over that.

    I also think that Obama probably believed Wright --an an emotional guy-- was just getting carried away with hyperbole and didn't actually believe some of his most outrageous statements. It's a little hard to square the loon at the press club and in some of the clips with the guy who worked so tirelessly and effectivekly against apartheid and who has been a uniquely staunch defender of gay rights in the black church and who served in the Marines.

    Obama probably figured the "real Wright" was the latter, not the former. In his remarks yesterday he basically admitted that he may have been wrong about it.

    Now, at the same time, there clearly is a personal aspect to this that is fueling Obama's anger with Wright. I'm not going to pretend the betrayal wasn't a factor in his remarks, because any person who stuck their neck out for a guy only to get repaid like that would be enraged. I don't doubt it's a big factor here as well.

  19. #19
    [QUOTE=jets5ever;2517830]Good points, but some of this is self-inflicted by Obama. He could have handled this MUCH better than he has, IMO.[/QUOTE]

    This is true, no doubt. For the politician who preaches change, he is playing the game of politics, and he is finally being exposed as the epitomy of a politician. He is dropping the guy now because he realizes now is the right time before he loses even more votes. The first time opened the door for Obama to give a speech of historical signifigance.

    I just feel bad for the guy because he was that close to becoming our president. Now McCain is beating him in the polls and Hillary is beating McCain.
    Last edited by mallamalla; 04-30-2008 at 03:32 PM.

  20. #20
    it's really not that hard to understand

    March speech on race Obama didn't disown Wright.

    Wright goes on TV and personally attacks Obama.

    At that point he disowns Wright.

    I don't see that as hypocritical in any way.

    ****

    by the way the Reverend Wright "issue" isn't really about a man and his pastor. It's a way for people who had no intentions of voting for Obama in the first place to drag him down.

    Notice how all the undecided voters break toward Hillary at the last minute?

    That's because they aren't undecided they are racist. It's easy to say Im undecided but the Wright issue swayed my vote. It's not easy to say what they are really thinking.

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