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Thread: Obama would raise SS payroll tax on incomes over $250K

  1. #21
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    Thanks, it is interesting to see how HMO's and the gov't deal with the other side. I switched insurance a few years back and I was responsible for 20 percent for overnight and 30 percent if you don't stay. The bills I got were crazy. $700 for miscellaneous items, that was the bill. Even now Blue Cross commonly does not bill correctly. It is crazy.

    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2583592]Greenwave answered the question well. I would add also that the "private" insurers (Oxford, Cigna, et al.) base their reimbursement fee scales upon the government mandated medicare fee scale. They are not exactly the same, but do correlate well. So in a sense, the government does affect the reimbursements from private insurers- granted not directly but they definitely have an effect.

    A problem with going "out of network" is that you will lose alot of business. When it comes to medical care, people do not ignore costs. I'll give you a hypothetical- suppose you tore your ACL and needed a reconstruction. You could go to a "world class" surgeon such as James Andrews in Alabama (not sure if he is a "cash only" guy, BTW, just hypothetical situation) and pay $3000 out of pocket as an "out of network" provider (typically responsible for 20% of bill after a $1000 deductible). Or you could go to a very competent ortho surgeon in network where total cost would be a $30 co-pay. I would hazard to say that most everyone would go to the competent guy with the $30 co-pay.
    So to not take insurance puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Yes, many doctors "opt out" of specific private insurances that reimburse poorly as their practice grows. However very few run strictly "cash" businesses and those that do are questioned by many medical societies whether or not such a set up is "ethical" as it prices out all but the wealthiest.
    There are other rules that say you can't charge a lower fee for those who pay in full up front that do not apply to other businesses. Needless to say, the medical business has alot of rules and regulations that do not apply to other types of businesses.
    Sorry for the rambling reply.[/QUOTE]

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=cr726;2583601]Thanks, it is interesting to see how HMO's and the gov't deal with the other side. I switched insurance a few years back and I was responsible for 20 percent for overnight and 30 percent if you don't stay. The bills I got were crazy. $700 for miscellaneous items, that was the bill. Even now Blue Cross commonly does not bill correctly. It is crazy.[/QUOTE]

    Plus on average 10% of a practices costs is for "billing". This is because of the onerous medicare and insurance regulations. Imagine a pizza place or any other business that has to invest 10% of their income just to collect the other 90%. Makes things difficult, and is again unique to medicine.

  3. #23
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    Do run a private practice or hospital or both? Just curious, I would guess it is more cost effective to have the hospital with the malpractice insurance.

    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2583614]Plus on average 10% of a practices costs is for "billing". This is because of the onerous medicare and insurance regulations. Imagine a pizza place or any other business that has to invest 10% of their income just to collect the other 90%. Makes things difficult, and is again unique to medicine.[/QUOTE]

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=Greenwave81;2583040]Well, for one, there is a cap on potential benefits...and the SS program is a defined benefit program based on contributions, not percentages. If they increase the cap on earnings subjected to the tax, are they going to increase the maximum you can get in retirement from SS? Will they write into law that they will not at a later date means test the program?

    The other thing to remember is that a lot of the people that make over $250K, such as myself, are both business owners AND employees. Remove the cap on SS, and I get a 12% additional hit, not 6%.

    I'm not saying this to garner any sympathy...lord knows the class warfare crowd runs rampant here. But as a business owner, if anyone thinks I'm going to just accept a 12% paycut because someone in Washington thinks I don't pay my fair share...they ought to think again.

    People, businesses and business owners do not operate in a vacuum; there are reactions to every monetary action the government takes with regard to taxes.

    My business, in addition to the 10 owners (of which I am one), employs about 60 others...decent, well paying jobs with supreme benefits...ours is the only company I know of, in this area anyway, that contributes the maximum allowed by law to EVERY employees retirement plan. We pride ourselves on taking care of our employees and have a very low (in fact, non-existent) turnover rate.

    But will I sit here and take a 12% pay cut without looking for ways to decrease it? Not on your life. Maybe I find ways to get benefits to my family without it showing as income...and I'll certainly look at my payroll costs. Perhaps it costs a few people their jobs....I don't know at this point.

    Just sayin.[/QUOTE]

    Good post..

    SS isn't really intending to be a redistribuition of wealth program, the dems want to make it one..

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=cr726;2583620]Do run a private practice or hospital or both? Just curious, I would guess it is more cost effective to have the hospital with the malpractice insurance.[/QUOTE]

    I was in private practice, but now am in a practice with a hospital. I call it "pseudo private practice". It is not a strict salaried position, so reimbursements and collections do matter in my bottom line, but I don't have control over who my secretary or nurse is, for example. I don't have to worry about having someone call out and be short-staffed, however, since the hospital takes care of that end unlike in a true "private practice". Overhead is typically more with a hospital practice, in general, but you don't have to manage the "little things" such as ordering supplies or doing payroll yourself. The trade-off is loss of autonomy to some degree.

    The hospital "self-insures" which helps, but you also have no control over which insurances to take or not take. As a hospital with residents, we must take medicare and medicaid, for example.

  6. #26
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    Does that help with your hours? Do you get to make your own? You still paying your school loans?

    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2583632]I was in private practice, but now am in a practice with a hospital. I call it "pseudo private practice". It is not a strict salaried position, so reimbursements and collections do matter in my bottom line, but I don't have control over who my secretary or nurse is, for example. I don't have to worry about having someone call out and be short-staffed, however, since the hospital takes care of that end unlike in a true "private practice". Overhead is typically more with a hospital practice, in general, but you don't have to manage the "little things" such as ordering supplies or doing payroll yourself. The trade-off is loss of autonomy to some degree.

    The hospital "self-insures" which helps, but you also have no control over which insurances to take or not take. As a hospital with residents, we must take medicare and medicaid, for example.[/QUOTE]

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=cr726;2583635]Does that help with your hours? Do you get to make your own? You still paying your school loans?[/QUOTE]
    It does help with hours- more people in the call group. There is some more flexibility with hours and time off than in private practice. My school is paid off- I'm out almost 15 years plus run a side business in my "spare time". A sole proprietor, though, the self-employment taxes for me are bad enough. ;)

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    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2583645]A sole proprietor, though, the self-employment taxes for me are bad enough. ;)[/QUOTE]


    As a sole proprietor, you pay both sides of the SS contribution...

    I worked two jobs last year; my primary job, and then at the University when they were short for some extra $$ to fund my kids college. After figuring out what I paid in taxes for my second, 'sole proprietor' job with it's self-employment tax and seeing it hit me even harder in the Alternative Minimum Tax arena, I quit. It's just not worth it.

    That's the other side of increasing taxes that some just do not understand...there is a certain point where people that could be working more just realize it's not worth it and don't...which is lose-lose for everyone, both the individual and government.

  9. #29
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    I sent you a pm. No big deal. Thanks.

    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2583632]I was in private practice, but now am in a practice with a hospital. I call it "pseudo private practice". It is not a strict salaried position, so reimbursements and collections do matter in my bottom line, but I don't have control over who my secretary or nurse is, for example. I don't have to worry about having someone call out and be short-staffed, however, since the hospital takes care of that end unlike in a true "private practice". Overhead is typically more with a hospital practice, in general, but you don't have to manage the "little things" such as ordering supplies or doing payroll yourself. The trade-off is loss of autonomy to some degree.

    The hospital "self-insures" which helps, but you also have no control over which insurances to take or not take. As a hospital with residents, we must take medicare and medicaid, for example.[/QUOTE]

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=cr726;2583684]I sent you a pm. No big deal. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

    Didn't receive it.

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=Greenwave81;2583664]As a sole proprietor, you pay both sides of the SS contribution...

    I worked two jobs last year; my primary job, and then at the University when they were short for some extra $$ to fund my kids college. After figuring out what I paid in taxes for my second, 'sole proprietor' job with it's self-employment tax and seeing it hit me even harder in the Alternative Minimum Tax arena, I quit. It's just not worth it.

    That's the other side of increasing taxes that some just do not understand...there is a certain point where people that could be working more just realize it's not worth it and don't...which is lose-lose for everyone, both the individual and government.[/QUOTE]
    That is exactly what I am seeing. For every "extra" dollar I make in my second job, almost 50% goes to taxes between state and federal, as well as SS. Even when you "max out" with the individual FICA, as a self proprietor you are still responsible for the employer component. It is sad when because of taxes one has to consider "whether its worth it" to work for extras for your family such as putting away for college (which we will certainly have to fund without "need based" grants) or God forbid pay off your mortgage early.

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2583645]It does help with hours- more people in the call group. There is some more flexibility with hours and time off than in private practice. My school is paid off- I'm out almost 15 years plus run a side business in my "spare time". [B]A sole proprietor, though, the self-employment taxes for me are bad enough[/B]. ;)[/QUOTE]

    that's the difference between making it on your own versus making a career living off the government and taxpayors....;)

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY;2583709]that's the difference between making it on your own versus making a career living off the government and taxpayors....;)[/QUOTE]

    That's how I would like to feel, but every April 15th (and June, September and January 15th) I ask myself is it worth the extra effort.

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=Greenwave81;2583138]
    Let's take an example here....how would you feel if the government took 42.25% of your income next year? Would you be OK with it? If you are, why not pay a little bit more...say 45%? 50%? What is the breaking point?[/QUOTE]

    Of course I wouldn't be ok with it but we're comparing apples to oranges. A $10,000 loss to you would be the equivalent of a $1000 loss to me. Would I be angry? Of course... but I don't think it would necessarily impact my lifestyle significantly- if at all.

    The difference is that you have options when it comes to recouping the money where 99% of us don't. Yours is a good position to be in.
    Last edited by Pac2566; 06-15-2008 at 12:23 AM.

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=Pac2566;2583924]Of course I wouldn't be ok with it but we're comparing apples to oranges. A $10,000 loss to you would be the equivalent of a $1000 loss to me. Would I be angry? Of course... but I don't think it would necessarily impact my lifestyle significantly- if at all.

    The difference is that you have options when it comes to recouping the money where 99% of us don't. Yours is a good position to be in.[/QUOTE]


    Yeah I'm in a good position, but it took a lot to get here...12 years post HS education/training, taking on a boatload of debt, and never making greater than $30K until I was over 30. And as a business owner, I also have significantly more at risk too....even in 'bad' years business wise, employees get paid...their income is 'guaranteed', mine isn't.

    $10,000 is enough to support one of my kids at college next year....so do I want the money that I earned in the first place to give to my kid? You betcha.

    Actually, this discussion is somewhat surreal...comical and sad at the same time.

    When did the U.S. get to this point...where someone has to justify why they should be able to keep income that THEY earned? Especially when you're talking about income over and above the 40%+ already demanded and taken. It's plain pitiful.

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=Greenwave81;2584365]Yeah I'm in a good position, but it took a lot to get here...12 years post HS education/training, taking on a boatload of debt, and never making greater than $30K until I was over 30. And as a business owner, I also have significantly more at risk too....even in 'bad' years business wise, employees get paid...their income is 'guaranteed', mine isn't.

    $10,000 is enough to support one of my kids at college next year....so do I want the money that I earned in the first place to give to my kid? You betcha.

    Actually, this discussion is somewhat surreal...comical and sad at the same time.

    When did the U.S. get to this point...where someone has to justify why they should be able to keep income that THEY earned? Especially when you're talking about income over and above the 40%+ already demanded and taken. It's plain pitiful.[/QUOTE]Never mind that we also have to get "umbrella policy" insurance because our "success" makes us a target for the ambulance chasers of the world.

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=ChadLover;2582223]I think it is great idea. And if you make over 250K you [B][I]should [/I][/B]be one of the wealthiest... if you piss it away that is your problem. Even in NY, that is not chump change.[/QUOTE]

    It would end the misconception that most SS reciepients have that they are entitled to a defined benifit based on what they actually paid in. This would be a good first step in taking the defined benifit away from those who paid in all their lives who make over a certain income. I'm sure this concept would help elect Democrats if they were honest with the American public.

    Just think if GDP goes down and we have national health insurance you could actually envision a future where only the poor get SS and health care and the middle class are left to fund it and than die.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 06-16-2008 at 09:02 AM.

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