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Thread: G.o.a.t.

  1. #81
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    [QUOTE=24;2583864]You have no bias toward anything of course... Since the French hate Lance and just about all other Americans.[/QUOTE]

    I lived 15 years in the US, and post regularly on an american website where posters are 99% American. So no, I'm not anti-American in any way.

    I don't think the French hated him as much as they hated his total domination for so long. Like the Pats, people are sick of seeing them win, and want new blood. Greg Lemond was very popular over here for instance.

    To call him the GOAT without even mentioning the [I]possibility [/I]that he cheated is blind homerism IMO. Then again I'm French and I live to watch you suffer.:rolleyes:

  2. #82
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    If this is going to come down to boxers than how can you argue this man. From an inspirational stand point anyways.

    [IMG]http://www.ringmemorabilia.com/cinderellaman.jpg[/IMG]

  3. #83
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    [QUOTE=RaoulDuke;2584176]I lived 15 years in the US, and post regularly on an american website where posters are 99% American. So no, I'm not anti-American in any way.

    I don't think the French hated him as much as they hated his total domination for so long. Like the Pats, people are sick of seeing them win, and want new blood. Greg Lemond was very popular over here for instance.

    To call him the GOAT without even mentioning the [I]possibility [/I]that he cheated is blind homerism IMO. Then again I'm French and I live to watch you suffer.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    No one here(usa) cares about cycling. Its impossible to be great at something no one cares about. It wasn't an issue here until Lance won his 5th. And that was only about 15 seconds on sportscenter.

    And as far as the French go, we did enough by cleaning up the mess they made in Vietnam, we shoulda rocked there asses off the planet for that mistake. There lucky they're still a country let alone a 'super' power. And now there complaining about us.

  4. #84
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    [QUOTE=Jbro22;2584178][B]No one here(usa) cares about cycling. Its impossible to be great at something no one cares about.[/B] It wasn't an issue here until Lance won his 5th. And that was only about 15 seconds on sportscenter.

    [B]And as far as the French go, we did enough by cleaning up the mess they made in Vietnam[/B], we shoulda rocked there asses off the planet for that mistake. There lucky they're still a country let alone a 'super' power. And now there complaining about us.[/QUOTE]

    The bolded comments: :rofl: :rolleyes2 :rolleyes:

  5. #85
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    [QUOTE=isired;2583978]

    [IMG]http://www.saxton.com.au/saxton_db_data/images/Johnson_Michael.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

    Please, this man embarassed himself by pulling up "lame" when he was getting smoked by Donovan Bailey after having talked so much trash leading into the race:

    [url]http://youtube.com/watch?v=av-kv6VR-Nk[/url]

  6. #86
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    Wow, I don't know how you pick one, everyone mentioned in this thread was an outstanding athlete.

    Thorpe's accomplishments however, may supersede all the rest.

  7. #87
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    [QUOTE=Tyler Durden;2583391]From 1963 to 1966, Sandy Koufax was the greatest.[/QUOTE]

    Yes, Sandy Koufax was the best pitcher in MLB during those years. If you are suggesting that his performance during that 4-year span was the greatest pitching of all-time, then you would be mistaken.

    No pitcher was more dominant than Pedro was from '97-'03. If you want to take a single four-year span, from '97 to '00, Martinez posted an ERA+ of over 200 during 3 of the 4 years and posted the highest ERA+ in the modern ERA, with a 291. In 2000, his 1.74 ERA was over 3 runs better than the league average. Koufax never had an ERA+ over 200 once, peaking at 190. While he struck out 382 batters in a season, Koufax never had a K/9 ratio over 11. Martinez was over 11 three out of the four years from '97 to '00.

    While his Koufax's numbers were great, they weren't light years ahead of the rest of the league as Martinez was.

  8. #88
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    [QUOTE=JohnnyHector;2584222]Yes, Sandy Koufax was the best pitcher in MLB during those years. If you are suggesting that his performance during that 4-year span was the greatest pitching of all-time, then you would be mistaken.

    No pitcher was more dominant than Pedro was from '97-'03. If you want to take a single four-year span, from '97 to '00, Martinez posted an ERA+ of over 200 during 3 of the 4 years and posted the highest ERA+ in the modern ERA, with a 291. In 2000, his 1.74 ERA was over 3 runs better than the league average. Koufax never had an ERA+ over 200 once, peaking at 190. While he struck out 382 batters in a season, Koufax never had a K/9 ratio over 11. Martinez was over 11 three out of the four years from '97 to '00.

    While his Koufax's numbers were great, they weren't light years ahead of the rest of the league as Martinez was.[/QUOTE]

    Never mind the fact that Koufax averaged 100 more innings per year than Pedro. :rolleyes:

  9. #89
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    [QUOTE=Klecko73isGod;2584226]Never mind the fact that Koufax averaged 100 more innings per year than Pedro. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    Different times. Nobody today is throwing that many innings. It has nothing to do with Pedro being more dominant in comparison to the rest of the league. Again, no knock on Koufax but Pedro in his heyday is at the top...

  10. #90
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    :zzz: these threads put me to sleep

  11. #91
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    [QUOTE=Flaming Mo;2584257]Different times. Nobody today is throwing that many innings. It has nothing to do with Pedro being more dominant in comparison to the rest of the league. Again, no knock on Koufax but Pedro in his heyday is at the top...[/QUOTE]

    Against lesser competition in an era where a six-inning pitcher can be considered "dominant." :rolleyes:

    You have to consider the era when considering relative dominance. What Koufax did is more impressive to me. His dominance was pre-expansion and pre-specialization.

    To routinely pitch well in excess of 300 innings per year and average around 40 starts per year insane.

    Whitey Ford, who was inarguably one of the most dominant pitchers of all time, only won 20 games once. That is because Casey Stengel would save him for the best teams. So Whitey Ford has to be on any list of the most dominant pitchers of all time when you consider that his all-time high winning percentage was earned by facing the best opposition of his era.

    Still I think Koufax's dominance is more impressive. To go out there every fourth day, not every fifth, and average 8 innings per start for four seasons and be that consistently good is something that has never happened since, no matter how you try to spin it.

  12. #92
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    [QUOTE=24;2584043]He was the only real opponent Marciano ever had really and it was at the end of Joes career..He wasnt the same guy then..........The fight with Max meant more then just a fight. It was in the heart of WW2.. America VS Nazi Germany..Talk about intense, could you imagine something like that occuring these days?[/QUOTE]

    Sorry 24....To say that a washed up, over the hill Louis was the only "real" opponent Marciano had is absolutely ludicrous....He faced some of the best heavyweights in any era including Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Roland LaStarza, Archie Moore, Harry Matthews, Rex Layne, Lee Savold and Carmine Vingo (whom Marciano almost killed in the ring and said was his toughest opponent).

    Marciano cleaned out the division and destroyed most every fighter put in his path....He did what he was supposed to do to the level of competition he fought....He climbed up off the mat against Walcott and Moore to defeat both (Walcott twice in fights he was behind)....He is clearly one of the top 5 Heavyweights of all time (if not top 3).

  13. #93
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    [QUOTE=Klecko73isGod;2584226]Never mind the fact that Koufax averaged 100 more innings per year than Pedro. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    Nevermind that Pedro had to pitch against juiceheads and DH's.

    Nevermind that Pedro pitched from a lower mound than Koufax.

    Nevermind that Pedro had games blown for him by the bullpen.


    You can't fault the guy for the era he pitched in. The fact is that his domination of his era is unmatched, despite how much people dislike him or the teams for which he has pitched.

  14. #94
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    [QUOTE=JohnnyHector;2584280]Nevermind that Pedro had to pitch against juiceheads and DH's.

    Nevermind that Pedro pitched from a lower mound than Koufax.

    Nevermind that Pedro had games blown for him by the bullpen.


    You can't fault the guy for the era he pitched in. The fact is that his domination of his era is unmatched, despite how much people dislike him or the teams for which he has pitched.[/QUOTE]

    Exactly...

  15. #95
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    [QUOTE=Klecko73isGod;2584271]You have to consider the era when considering relative dominance. What Koufax did is more impressive to me. His dominance was pre-expansion and pre-specialization. [/QUOTE]

    My argument is that Koufax was nowhere near as dominant as Pedro. An ERA of 1.88 (in Koufax's MVP season) looks unbelievable, until you consider that the league average that year was 2.99. When Pedro had a 1.74 ERA, the league ERA was 5.07. Which was a more dominant performance?

    You can't fault Martinez for being around during the era of relief specialists and to call him a "six-inning pitcher" may be a case of being overly influenced by his tenure with the Mets. During the four-year span I cited, he averaged almost 7 1/2 innings per start. The fact that he was a strikeout pitcher inevitably led to higher pitch counts and his small stature certainly influenced his managers in being more conservative in his handling.

    [QUOTE]To routinely pitch well in excess of 300 innings per year and average around 40 starts per year insane.[/QUOTE]

    Sure, Phil Niekro did it and weaseled his way into the HOF.

    [QUOTE]Whitey Ford, who was inarguably one of the most dominant pitchers of all time, only won 20 games once. That is because Casey Stengel would save him for the best teams. So Whitey Ford has to be on any list of the most dominant pitchers of all time when you consider that his all-time high winning percentage was earned by facing the best opposition of his era. [/QUOTE]

    Maybe I'm biased, but I can't really consider non-strikeout pitchers to be "dominant", when they have to rely too much on luck and team defense.

    [QUOTE]Still I think Koufax's dominance is more impressive. To go out there every fourth day, not every fifth, and average 8 innings per start for four seasons and be that [B]consistently good[/B] is something that has never happened since, no matter how you try to spin it.[/QUOTE]

    You can't call someone dominant if they were only "consistently good"; Pedro was consistently great. Perhaps if he had pitched for a team other than the Red Sox, your opinion may differ.

  16. #96
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    Greatest Jet for All Time.

    [IMG]http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/3980/75381968un1.jpg[/IMG]

    :O

  17. #97
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    [QUOTE=JohnnyHector;2584294]My argument is that Koufax was nowhere near as dominant as Pedro. An ERA of 1.88 (in Koufax's MVP season) looks unbelievable, until you consider that the league average that year was 2.99. When Pedro had a 1.74 ERA, the league ERA was 5.07. Which was a more dominant performance?

    You can't fault Martinez for being around during the era of relief specialists and to call him a "six-inning pitcher" may be a case of being overly influenced by his tenure with the Mets. During the four-year span I cited, he averaged almost 7 1/2 innings per start. The fact that he was a strikeout pitcher inevitably led to higher pitch counts and his small stature certainly influenced his managers in being more conservative in his handling.



    Sure, Phil Niekro did it and weaseled his way into the HOF.



    Maybe I'm biased, but I can't really consider non-strikeout pitchers to be "dominant", when they have to rely too much on luck and team defense.



    You can't call someone dominant if they were only "consistently good"; Pedro was consistently great. Perhaps if he had pitched for a team other than the Red Sox, your opinion may differ.[/QUOTE]

    I am not dissing Pedro by any means. My argument is that you are unfairly discounting Koufax's brilliance.

    Non-strikeout pitchers can't be dominant? Tell that to any team that had to face Greg Maddux for the last 20 years.

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