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Thread: McCain lacks command experience

  1. #1

    McCain lacks command experience

    [quote]
    "Well, I donít think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president." - Wesley Clark

    [url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25452986/[/url]
    [/quote]

    thoughts? Is performing heroic military service a substitute for gaining command experience?

  2. #2
    [QUOTE=bitonti;2607899]thoughts? Is performing heroic military service a substitute for gaining command experience?[/QUOTE]

    well, McCain has done more in his life than just get shot down, I mean, the guy has been a Senator, and involved in our government for a long time.

    Not saying that he is qualified, but to only focus on his captivity is a little disingenuous...

  3. #3
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    [QUOTE=piney;2607919]well, McCain has done more in his life than just get shot down, I mean, the guy has been a Senator, and involved in our government for a long time.

    Not saying that he is qualified, but to only focus on his captivity is a little disingenuous...[/QUOTE]

    Disingenuous? Trust me, before long someone on the left will start equating the fact that he was shot down with him being a failure (for being shot down).

    Just watch.

  4. #4
    [quote=piney;2607919]well, McCain has done more in his life than just get shot down, I mean, the guy has been a Senator, and involved in our government for a long time.

    Not saying that he is qualified, but to only focus on his captivity is a little disingenuous...[/quote]

    Frankly, he's got everything you would want in a commander in chief:

    1) actual war experience, including time in captivity, which means he has a visceral understanding of the reality and costs of war;

    2) a long history of involvement in and focus on military and security issues (he's been on the Senate Armed Services committee for how long?);

    3) enough of a grasp of strategy and tactics to have been coming down loud and hard on Rumsfeld's "strategy" in Iraq from the moment it was articulated; and

    4) the willingness to go out on a political limb to push for what he believed was the necessary change in strategy.

    All of that adds up to judgment, experience and understanding. For Wesley Clark to boil that down to "being shot down in a fighter plane" isn't just disingenuous, its political stupidity, because most people can see right through that type of rhetoric.

  5. #5
    [QUOTE=shakin318;2607927]Disingenuous? Trust me, before long someone on the left will start equating the fact that he was shot down with him being a failure (for being shot down).

    Just watch.[/QUOTE]

    I hope that doesn't happen, because I respect his service. But, when it does happen, the people who object the loudest will be the same ones who cheered when exactly the same thing was done to John Kerry.

  6. #6
    [QUOTE=doggin94it;2607940]

    4) the willingness to go out on a political limb to push for what he believed was the necessary change in strategy.

    .[/QUOTE]

    Not lately.

    His big political risks --immigration reform, opposing the Bush tax cuts-- are now things he says he wouldn't do and won't support going forward. (Well, he tells hispanic audiences he'd do immigration reform again, but denies it to everyone else.)

  7. #7
    Was it the left who attacked his service in 2000?

    [QUOTE=shakin318;2607927]Disingenuous? Trust me, before long someone on the left will start equating the fact that he was shot down with him being a failure (for being shot down).

    Just watch.[/QUOTE]

  8. #8
    [QUOTE=doggin94it;2607940]Frankly, he's got everything you would want in a commander in chief:

    1) actual war experience, including time in captivity, which means he has a visceral understanding of the reality and costs of war;

    2) a long history of involvement in and focus on military and security issues (he's been on the Senate Armed Services committee for how long?);

    3) enough of a grasp of strategy and tactics to have been coming down loud and hard on Rumsfeld's "strategy" in Iraq from the moment it was articulated; and

    4) the willingness to go out on a political limb to push for what he believed was the necessary change in strategy.

    All of that adds up to judgment, experience and understanding. For Wesley Clark to boil that down to "being shot down in a fighter plane" isn't just disingenuous, its political stupidity, because most people can see right through that type of rhetoric.[/QUOTE]

    Talk about McCain's judgement? Before the war he was one of the crew saying this would be a cakewalk, the war would not last long, and we will be greeted as liberators, and the Iraqi oil reserves would pay for the war. How true was that? Yes, in the past he was a maverick, but he seems to have lost all of those tendencies. Please tell me one position in this election that he has taken in opposition to his political base? Ok I thought of one. Oil drilling in Alaska, but he did flip flop on offshore when just in May he vehemently said he was against it.

    McCain's history on foreign affairs is that in nearly every instance he takes the militaristic forceful tactics.

    As a matter of fact while he was a pilot in Nam he wanted to bomb Chinese boats in North Vietname ports? How great an idea was that to start a war with China at the time?

    Clarkes comments were taken completely out of context. However if taken literally it's true isn't it?

  9. #9
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    I mean, the guy was a failure from a military stand point. He got shot down for crying out loud! FAIL


    Not to mention he should stand trial for war crimes!
    Last edited by King Ryan; 06-30-2008 at 11:44 AM.

  10. #10
    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2607943]I hope that doesn't happen, because I respect his service. But, when it does happen, the people who object the loudest will be the same ones who cheered when exactly the same thing was done to John Kerry.[/QUOTE]

    John Kerry flew fighter jets, was shot down during war, spent considerable time in a POW camp, and was an inspirational leader who kept the spirits of his fellow POW up in their darkest hours?

    Honestly, the only thing the two have in common is that they "served".

    Not sure if I will vote for McCain, but he's not just a guy who served... his story is one of the most inspirational you will ever hear...

  11. #11
    [QUOTE=Monsterxman;2608061]John Kerry flew fighter jets, was shot down during war, spent considerable time in a POW camp, and was an inspirational leader who kept the spirits of his fellow POW up in their darkest hours?

    Honestly, the only thing the two have in common is that they "served".

    Not sure if I will vote for McCain, but he's not just a guy who served... his story is one of the most inspirational you will ever hear...[/QUOTE]

    As I said, I admire McCain's service, would never attack it myself, and hope that those who would vote the same way as I would are better than stooping to that level.

    That said, the GOP 527s created a precedent for the attacking of honorable military service records when they went after Kerry's.

    He obviously was not a POW, but he served bravely when he easily could have gotten out of doing so, and he saved the lives of some of his fellow soldiers in the process. And yet we had ad after ad raising doubts about his service.

    None of that should have been surprising, as the source of those ads was the same as the guys raising doubts about what McCain gave up while being tortured and his mental state, etc...

    It's yet another sad legacy of Rove/Atwater politics.

  12. #12
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    no offense, but you need to read more if you think McCain's is one of the most inspirational

  13. #13
    [QUOTE=bitonti;2607899]thoughts? Is performing heroic military service a substitute for gaining command experience?[/QUOTE]


    Going downtown over Hanoi and Haiphong while flying in the teeth of the most lethal air defense network ever in that time and making decisions over whether to engage in evasive maneuvering to avoid defenses or stay on target in a straight line and drop his bombs on target while obeying the severe restrictions imposed by the Johnson Administration over how and where to evade, attack profiles and time over target demanded extensive personal discpline and command of the situation, not to mention while coordinating those of his element command of his squadron while flying with 100 other US aircraft and the occasional NVAF MiG.

    He served in a squadron that had suffered one of the highest loss rates in a Carrrier Air Wing that had the highest loss rate in the Vietnam war, if not the history of Naval Aviation as a whole.

    His position as a senior member of the chain of command as a POW in a group that earned at least 2 Medals of Honor I think is testament to his earned credibility for leadership.

  14. #14
    [QUOTE=doggin94it;2607940]Frankly, he's got everything you would want in a commander in chief:

    1) actual war experience, including time in captivity, which means he has a visceral understanding of the reality and costs of war;

    2) a long history of involvement in and focus on military and security issues (he's been on the Senate Armed Services committee for how long?);

    3) enough of a grasp of strategy and tactics to have been coming down loud and hard on Rumsfeld's "strategy" in Iraq from the moment it was articulated; and

    4) the willingness to go out on a political limb to push for what he believed was the necessary change in strategy.

    All of that adds up to judgment, experience and understanding. For Wesley Clark to boil that down to "being shot down in a fighter plane" isn't just disingenuous, its political stupidity, because most people can see right through that type of rhetoric.[/QUOTE]

    Great points.

    McCain is clearly the better candidate with regard to the responsibilities of Commander in Chief.

    The question is; is that the most important issue right now and does Obama have qualities that could potentially make him a bad Commander in Chief.

    Again though, great points.
    Last edited by MachineGunFunk; 06-30-2008 at 01:45 PM.

  15. #15
    [QUOTE=Tanginius;2608076]no offense, but you need to read more if you think McCain's is one of the most inspirational[/QUOTE]

    No offense, but you need to finish your damn sentence.

    The key to Democratic win/gain will not lie in trashing/labeling John McCain, that I guarantee. The problem is, for the left, it's what you do best.

    The left must do/chant/convince the electorate just one thing: change. And in doing so, evade all calls for specifics. If you can pull that off, you've got the White House, Senate, and House.

  16. #16
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    Another example of liberal patriotism at its finest.

    At least McCain never came back and trashed his country, lied about his fellow soldiers or threw his medals over the White House fence.

    The wasteproduct who made this assertion, ashley clark, was fired for incompetance by slick willy.

    That tells you all you need to know about this.

  17. #17
    [QUOTE=Spirit of Weeb;2608141]
    The wasteproduct who made this assertion, ashley clark, was fired for incompetance by slick willy.

    That tells you all you need to know about this.[/QUOTE]

    Wesley Clark has 4 stars on his shoulder and just as many medals as McCain. He retired. He was never fired.
    Last edited by bitonti; 06-30-2008 at 01:41 PM.

  18. #18
    I fail to remember Obama's "command experience" in the military... :zzz:

    Clark needs to re-examine his criticism because all it does is make Obama look even less impressive when contrasted with McCain's experience.

  19. #19
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    Frankly I wanted McCain to win 8 years ago, but Bush got in the way!

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    [quote=bitonti;2608187]Wesley Clark has 4 stars on his shoulder and just as many medals as McCain. He retired. He was never fired.[/quote]

    [I]Clark received a call from General Shelton in July 1999 in which he was told that Secretary Cohen wanted Clark to leave his command in April 2000. Clark was surprised by this, as he saw SACEURs as being expected to serve at least 3 years and often asked to stay on for a 4th, while this date would give him less than 3 years of service at the post.[/I]

    [I]General Hugh Shelton would say of Clark during his 2004 campaign that "the reason he came out of Europe early had to do with integrity and character issues, things that are very near and dear to my heart. I'm not going to say whether I'm a Republican or democrat[/I][I]. I'll just say Wes won't get my vote".[/I]

    Whoops. Sure sounds like a case of competance to me.

    By the way, when exactly did our troops leave Bosnia, bitonti?

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