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Thread: Court: Student needn't stand for Pledge

  1. #1
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    Court: Student needn't stand for Pledge

    [SIZE="5"]Court: Student needn't stand for Pledge[/SIZE]
    Posted on Thu, Jul. 24, 2008

    By NIRVI SHAH
    [email]nshah@MiamiHerald.com[/email]

    A federal appeals court upheld the right of a former Palm Beach County high school student to refuse to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance but did not say whether that right should extend to all students.

    In 2005, Boynton Beach High student Cameron Frazier sued the school district, state education commissioner and state Board of Education after a teacher forced him to stand during the Pledge, even though he had a note from his mother excusing his participation.

    A state law requires people to stand when the Pledge is recited.

    The ruling doesn't strike down the law or extend to other students, said Randall Marshall, legal director for the American Civil Liberties Union in Florida who argued the suit on behalf of Frazier.

    But the ruling by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals could trigger more lawsuits if other students are forced to stand for the Pledge, Marshall said. ''Based on this ruling, it is unimaginable that any Florida school district could punish a high school student for refusing to stand for the Pledge,'' Marshall said in a statement. ``Any school district in Florida that requires a student to stand and recite the Pledge, and punishes them for not doing so, will be inviting litigation.''

    Broward school district spokesman Keith Bromery said students do need to bring in a note from their parents to be exempt from participating in the Pledge.

    ''If somebody does not want to do it, it's their right to opt out,'' Bromery said. ``They cannot disrupt the procedure.''

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    aclu now defending laziness...

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    [QUOTE=2foolish197;2643483]aclu now defending laziness...[/QUOTE]

    No, the ACLU is defending FREEDOM, actually.

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    What about the freedom to not have your tax dollars go towards paying for that ungrateful brats education.

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    [QUOTE=Postseason;2643670]What about the freedom to not have your tax dollars go towards paying for that ungrateful brats education.[/QUOTE]

    You are preaching to the choir my friend.

    But the abuse by Govt. of one freedom does not warrant the abuse of Govt. of another. The State should not (and cannot) mandate that we "pledge" anything in a free nation, public education or not.

    This is a clear cut case IMO. This isn't Nazi Germany, and the State has no right to mandate we goose-step in line when they demand us to (an exaggeration, obviously, but the point int he same).

    The kid in question is a dick, but that too doesn't delete his right to be such.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2643687][B]You are preaching to the choir my friend.[/B]

    But the abuse by Govt. of one freedom does not warrant the abuse of Govt. of another. The State should not (and cannot) mandate that we "pledge" anything in a free nation, public education or not.

    This is a clear cut case IMO. This isn't Nazi Germany, and the State has no right to mandate we goose-step in line when they demand us to (an exaggeration, obviously, but the point int he same).

    The kid in question is a dick, but that too doesn't delete his right to be such.[/QUOTE]

    Just out of curiosity, are you suggesting the government does not have the responsibility to provide schools to its citizens?? Are you saying only those who can afford it should be schooled??

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2643552]No, the ACLU is defending FREEDOM, actually.[/QUOTE]like burning a flag?

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    [QUOTE=2foolish197;2643702]like burning a flag?[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, like when the ACLU defended Sean Hannity's right to say anything he wants no matter who it offends

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    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2643694]Just out of curiosity, are you suggesting the government does not have the responsibility to provide schools to its citizens?? Are you saying only those who can afford it should be schooled??[/QUOTE]

    Its hard to totally privatize schools because education is so important.... but if you choose to send your child to a private school or home school your child, you should get every cent back that you paid into public education.

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    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2643709]Yeah, like when the ACLU defended Sean Hannity's right to say anything he wants no matter who it offends[/QUOTE]hannity can't say anything he wants.there are libel laws in this country.

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    [QUOTE=2foolish197;2643702]like burning a flag?[/QUOTE]

    Yes.

    Just because it's offensive, doesn't mean it should (or can) be made illegal.

    Freedom means sometimes people will use that freedom to say things we do not agree with. That applies with both Flag Burning and Not Pledging.

    I may disagree and even be offended by one or the other, but Freedom is more important than my offense. Go down the "ban it cause it's offensive" route and you enter the realm of Politcal Correctness and Intellectual Tyrany.

    And I say "Don't Tread on Me" to both of those ideals.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2643687]You are preaching to the choir my friend.

    But the abuse by Govt. of one freedom does not warrant the abuse of Govt. of another. The State should not (and cannot) mandate that we "pledge" anything in a free nation, public education or not.

    This is a clear cut case IMO. This isn't Nazi Germany, and the State has no right to mandate we goose-step in line when they demand us to (an exaggeration, obviously, but the point int he same).

    The kid in question is a dick, but that too doesn't delete his right to be such.[/QUOTE]

    the kid and his parent are trash, but it is a right. i commend the ruling, but i detest the kid and parent.

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2643694]Just out of curiosity, are you suggesting the government does not have the responsibility to provide schools to its citizens?? Are you saying only those who can afford it should be schooled??[/QUOTE]

    I wish I could stop paying for everybody else's brats. Yes.

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    [quote=Postseason;2643670]What about the freedom to not have your tax dollars go towards paying for that ungrateful brats education.[/quote]

    There's no "freedom" to only have your tax dollars support programs you agree with any more than an anti-war protester has the "freedom" not to have their tax dollars support the military.

    Somehow I don't think you're at all sympathetic to arguments from the left that they shouldn't have to pay taxes to support the war, are you?

  15. #15
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    [quote=2foolish197;2643702]like burning a flag?[/quote]

    [B]exactly[/B] like that.

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    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2643694]Just out of curiosity, are you suggesting the government does not have the responsibility to provide schools to its citizens?? Are you saying only those who can afford it should be schooled??[/QUOTE]
    The FEDERAL govt. NO, so you must be a proponent of school vouchers, yes?
    Last edited by acepepe; 07-24-2008 at 06:00 PM.

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    [quote=jefethegreat;2643719]Its hard to totally privatize schools because education is so important.... but if you choose to send your child to a private school or home school your child, you should get every cent back that you paid into public education.[/quote]

    And if you don't support the war, you should get every cent back that went to funding the military. And if you don't support the NEA, you should get every cent back that went to public funding for the arts. And if you are a Christian Scientist, you should get every cent back that went to medical research . . . :rolleyes:

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    [quote=2foolish197;2643732]hannity can't say anything he wants.there are libel laws in this country.[/quote]

    :rolleyes:

  19. #19
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2643694]are you suggesting the government does not have the responsibility to provide schools to its citizens??[/quote]

    Yes.

    If an Education were a right, it should be in the Bill of Rights. It isn't, so it isn't.

    If education is a right, I should be able to go down to UVA and get some public education for free, right? I can't, so it isn't.

    Beyond that, as a matter of principle I do not believe it is my responsabillity to pay for your childrens education, especially given how poor our public education system is, and how must it wastes.

    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2643694]Are you saying only those who can afford it should be schooled[/QUOTE]

    I am saying I do not like socialism.

    I am saying I should not have to pay to educate your child or provide your healthcare.

    Stop taking my money Ken. Thats what I am saying. I earned it, I should decide what it's used for, not you.

  20. #20
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    This kid is a Jehovah Witness. Their religion teaches neutrality in politics, nationalism etc. The Watchtower Society has a huge team of lawyers that have fought courts over this kind of stuff in the past.

    I know because my parents were JW's and gave me the same note to bring to school this kid had. I still stood and partcipated in the pledge which throughly pissed off my parents...but fuq em...

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