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Thread: Court: Student needn't stand for Pledge

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2643927]This kid is a Jehovah Witness. Their religion teaches neutrality in politics, nationalism etc. The Watchtower Society has a huge team of lawyers that have fought courts over this kind of stuff in the past.

    I know because my parents were JW's and gave me the same note to bring to school this kid had. I still stood and partcipated in the pledge which throughly pissed off my parents...but fuq em...[/QUOTE]

    What exactly are the major principles of being a Jehovah Witness?

    I ask not to start a fight, but because I don't know.

  2. #22
    [quote=Warfish;2643911]Yes.

    If an Education were a right, it should be in the Bill of Rights. It isn't, so it isn't.

    If education is a right, I should be able to go down to UVA and get some public education for free, right? I can't, so it isn't.

    Beyond that, as a matter of principle I do not believe it is my responsabillity to pay for your childrens education, especially given how poor our public education system is, and how must it wastes.



    I am saying I do not like socialism.

    I am saying I should not have to pay to educate your child or provide your healthcare.

    Stop taking my money Ken. Thats what I am saying. I earned it, I should decide what it's used for, not you.[/quote]

    What government services do you think are legitimate and why?

  3. #23
    [QUOTE=doggin94it;2643883][B]exactly[/B] like that.[/QUOTE]how many have you burned?

  4. #24
    [QUOTE=doggin94it;2643886]And if you don't support the war, you should get every cent back that went to funding the military. And if you don't support the NEA, you should get every cent back that went to public funding for the arts. And if you are a Christian Scientist, you should get every cent back that went to medical research . . . :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    Support? Did I say anything about supporting public education? No. Participate is a much better word. If parents do not send there kids to public schools they should not have to pay for schooling they didn't use. Give people their money... they make much better decisions with it than the government does.

  5. #25
    [QUOTE=2foolish197;2644018]how many have you burned?[/QUOTE]

    Who the **** cares... its a flag :zzz:

  6. #26
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2643911]Yes.

    If an Education were a right, it should be in the Bill of Rights. It isn't, so it isn't.

    If education is a right, I should be able to go down to UVA and get some public education for free, right? I can't, so it isn't.

    Beyond that, as a matter of principle I do not believe it is my responsabillity to pay for your childrens education, especially given how poor our public education system is, and how must it wastes.



    I am saying I do not like socialism.

    I am saying I should not have to pay to educate your child or provide your healthcare.

    Stop taking my money Ken. Thats what I am saying. I earned it, I should decide what it's used for, not you.[/QUOTE]

    Why stop at education then? Government should not be paying for roads, clean water, sanitation, waste water treatment, police, firemen etc..:rolleyes:

    We were not talking about education in the University level, we were talking about elementary, JHS, HS. Though UVA is a publically funded school which if you are a resident of VA you can attend for less money

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2643911]Yes.

    If an Education were a right, it should be in the Bill of Rights. It isn't, so it isn't.

    If education is a right, I should be able to go down to UVA and get some public education for free, right? I can't, so it isn't.

    Beyond that, as a matter of principle I do not believe it is my responsabillity to pay for your childrens education, especially given how poor our public education system is, and how must it wastes.



    I am saying I do not like socialism.

    I am saying I should not have to pay to educate your child or provide your healthcare.

    Stop taking my money Ken. Thats what I am saying. I earned it, I should decide what it's used for, not you.[/QUOTE]

    First of all, I agree with your earlier post regarding the protection of liberty, even if we don't agree with someone's expression of it. Well said.

    Re education, there are several problems with your argument. First of all, public schools were a fixture in our towns and villages even before the framing of the Constitution. The idea of providing for the education of children was cherished by the founders as they knew how important an educated citizenry was in a democratic republic. Every state has had in its charter a commitment to public education. This is not some newfangled liberal notion. That the federal government established a Dept of Education is seen as an outgrowth of the Constitutional interest in furthering "arts and sciences" as well as being legitimized by the "general welfare" clause. It wouldn't be in the Bill of Rights. There was real interest from the beginning as well in forming a national university (I know, anathema to states rights and anti-federalists among us). What you are really arguing against is state taxation, much more than federal. It would be nice if we didn't have to pay taxes for services that were considered part of the general welfare of our state or nation... if I don't drive, why should I pay taxes toward road repair? etc. You're actually paying for an ideal... that kids in our country will be educated sufficiently to maintain our way of government. Stupidity, intolerance and ignorance is the fastest way for a representative form of government like ours to be flushed down the toilet.

  8. #28
    [QUOTE=jefethegreat;2644061]Who the **** cares... its a flag :zzz:[/QUOTE]

    It is not the flag it is what the flag represents. You know the country you live in!

  9. #29
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2643738]Yes.

    Just because it's offensive, doesn't mean it should (or can) be made illegal.

    Freedom means sometimes people will use that freedom to say things we do not agree with. That applies with both Flag Burning and Not Pledging.

    I may disagree and even be offended by one or the other, but Freedom is more important than my offense. Go down the "ban it cause it's offensive" route and you enter the realm of Politcal Correctness and Intellectual Tyrany.

    And I say "Don't Tread on Me" to both of those ideals.[/QUOTE]

    :clapper:

    Outstanding post Fish!!!

    Part of living in a free country is accepting other ideas. Our pluralism is our greatest strength as a society and the biggest thing that separates us from the terrorists.

    The number one thing they hate about America is that we accept other ideas. They hate that people can express themselves freely here. It drives them absolutely nuts.

    They hate this so much because if they allowed their own people to express themselves freely, they would lose their power in a heartbeat.

    There was a kid in my eighth grade homeroom that would not participate in the Pledge of Allegiance. His reasons were religious, something of his particular sect of Christianity (I can't for the life of me remember what his religion was) had a strict interpretation of the 10 Commandments and saw the Pledge as worshipping a false idol. He silently stood but did not put his hand over his heart and did not recite the Pledge.

    After the first few days, nobody was bothered by it and I grew up in a very conservative, working class community.

    The endgame was simple, we are the only society in the world in which his family could worship as they like and not have to worry about being thrown in jail or worse for their beliefs.

    That is why I love this country.

  10. #30
    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2644112]Why stop at education then? Government should not be paying for roads, clean water, sanitation, waste water treatment, police, firemen etc..:rolleyes:[/quote]

    You said that, not I.:rolleyes:

    I'm fine with Roads, Water Treatement, Sanitation, Police and Fire Services being Taxpayer Funded. Many of these have the usual Govt. waste and ineffecientcy, but I can live with that.

    You asked if it Education was a Responsabillity, which I interprit as a "right". It's not, nor are most of the things you list above. But I'm happy to discuss the rationale behind them, but in this case I agree with all of them.

    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2644112]We were not talking about education in the University level, we were talking about elementary, JHS, HS. Though[/QUOTE]

    How very convenient. :rolleyes:

    The massive costs for University are ok for citizens to bear, but nothing below that then? Ok, rather convenient for the horribly overpriced expensive Universities, but ok.

    It's funny, people whine about Oil prices and their increase, but no one on the left ever complains about the cost of University, and why it needs to be so high.

    You ak "why stop at Education", so I ask you the same, why stop at High School? Why not make ALL schooling of any kind raxpayer supported fullly? Heathecare too? And Homes? And Jobs? Why not 100% taxation? You'd like that, right, since you have such deep and unrelenting faith in Govt Services.

  11. #31
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    It's a fundamental tenet of 1st Amendment law that the government cannot require you to affirmatively say something or make a vocal or symbolic statement. That's one of the reasons why we live in the greatest country in the world - the freedom.

    It's not a republican or democrat thing (even though republicans in the past have exploited outrage over flag burning into votes) - these republicans who supposedly call themselves libertarians should be in agreement with this ruling.

  12. #32
    well...this is the entire reason that the first amendment was created...



    it was created to protect impolite speech....

    things we like do not need to be protected..things we don't like do...

    it is that simple....so if something offends you just think...."man I love this country"...because we were basically founded with offensive speech!!!



    also...as far as education goes I have been complaining for years that my taxes pay for other proples kids to go to school....I don't have any kids!!!!!!



    why not just charge a flat tax to people with children to cover their education....if you decide to enroll your child in private school or home school them you can get the money back...

    to protect us from having people pull their kids out of school simply to save money have some sort of annual or quarterly exams that kids have to take and pass in order to remain eligable for home schooling....

    they fail you have to enroll them in public school.....

  13. #33
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2643687]You are preaching to the choir my friend.

    But the abuse by Govt. of one freedom does not warrant the abuse of Govt. of another. The State should not (and cannot) mandate that we "pledge" anything in a free nation, public education or not.

    This is a clear cut case IMO. This isn't Nazi Germany, and the State has no right to mandate we goose-step in line when they demand us to (an exaggeration, obviously, but the point int he same).

    The kid in question is a dick, but that too doesn't delete his right to be such.[/QUOTE]


    I agree................... but that said, if such a student didn;t stand up because he was being a jerk, it just might follow that he would end up suffering some sort of calamity at the hands of his schoolmate - you know how kids can be for being a jerk.

  14. #34
    [QUOTE=piney;2644489]well...this is the entire reason that the first amendment was created...



    it was created to protect impolite speech....

    things we like do not need to be protected..things we don't like do...

    it is that simple....so if something offends you just think...."man I love this country"...because we were basically founded with offensive speech!!!



    also...as far as education goes I have been complaining for years that my taxes pay for other proples kids to go to school....I don't have any kids!!!!!!



    why not just charge a flat tax to people with children to cover their education....if you decide to enroll your child in private school or home school them you can get the money back...

    to protect us from having people pull their kids out of school simply to save money have some sort of annual or quarterly exams that kids have to take and pass in order to remain eligable for home schooling....

    they fail you have to enroll them in public school.....[/QUOTE]


    Is anything wrong with homeschooling? I know a lot of homeschooled kids who are at ease socially and do great at school. In two cases, they got college scholarships.

    Btw, I think homeschooled kids do (OOPS: Edit ; only do not don;t - sorry) to take standardized tests.
    Last edited by JCnflies; 07-25-2008 at 03:01 PM.

  15. #35
    [QUOTE=jefethegreat;2644061]Who the **** cares... its a flag :zzz:[/QUOTE]you don't get it.you'll never get it.nothing matters other than your limited freedom to ignore/burn symbols of freedom.would you burn a picture of mlk or jesus in front of thier followers.i doubt it.

  16. #36
    [QUOTE=JCnflies;2644606]Is anything wrong with homeschooling? I know a lot of homeschooled kids who are at ease socially and do great at school. In two cases, they got college scholarships.

    Btw, I think homeschooled kids do not to take standardized tests.[/QUOTE]

    I never said that there was anything wrong with being home-schooled...

    I was just saying, my proposition of paying taxes for schools only if your children are enrolled in public school could result in people not teaching their children and not paying taxes simply to get the extra cash...so to ensure that doesnt happen is to make sure that the children can pass some sort of standardized testing.

  17. #37
    [QUOTE=2foolish197;2644630]you don't get it.you'll never get it.nothing matters other than your limited freedom to ignore/burn symbols of freedom.would you burn a picture of mlk or jesus in front of thier followers.i doubt it.[/QUOTE]

    so..as long as you think it is acceptable then it should be legal..but if it offends you it shouldn't?

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=jefethegreat;2643719]Its hard to totally privatize schools because education is so important.... but if you choose to send your child to a private school or home school your child, you should get every cent back that you paid into public education.[/QUOTE]

    really, so those with no children should not pay? Or should they only pay while their kids are in school? that is called private schooling, for that you abandon the tax all together and everyone pay their own way

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2643738]Yes.

    Just because it's offensive, doesn't mean it should (or can) be made illegal.

    Freedom means sometimes people will use that freedom to say things we do not agree with. That applies with both Flag Burning and Not Pledging.

    I may disagree and even be offended by one or the other, but Freedom is more important than my offense. Go down the "ban it cause it's offensive" route and you enter the realm of Politcal Correctness and Intellectual Tyrany.

    And I say "Don't Tread on Me" to both of those ideals.[/QUOTE]

    you're offended that someone else wants to exercise their freedom to not stand for the pledge of allegiance?

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=Zombo;2643767]the kid and his parent are trash, but it is a right. i commend the ruling, but i detest the kid and parent.[/QUOTE]

    detest? wow

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