Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 68

Thread: Court: Student needn't stand for Pledge

  1. #41
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Miami, Fl
    Posts
    18,661
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2643911]Yes.

    If an Education were a right, it should be in the Bill of Rights. It isn't, so it isn't.

    If education is a right, I should be able to go down to UVA and get some public education for free, right? I can't, so it isn't.

    Beyond that, as a matter of principle I do not believe it is my responsabillity to pay for your childrens education, especially given how poor our public education system is, and how must it wastes.



    I am saying I do not like socialism.

    I am saying I should not have to pay to educate your child or provide your healthcare.

    Stop taking my money Ken. Thats what I am saying. I earned it, I should decide what it's used for, not you.[/QUOTE]


    you sound more like a Ron Paul Republican everyday

  2. #42
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2644366]



    How very convenient. :rolleyes:

    The massive costs for University are ok for citizens to bear, but nothing below that then? Ok, rather convenient for the horribly overpriced expensive Universities, but ok.

    It's funny, people whine about Oil prices and their increase, but no one on the left ever complains about the cost of University, and why it needs to be so high.

    You ak "why stop at Education", so I ask you the same, why stop at High School? Why not make ALL schooling of any kind raxpayer supported fullly? Heathecare too? And Homes? And Jobs? Why not 100% taxation? You'd like that, right, since you have such deep and unrelenting faith in Govt Services.[/QUOTE]

    I never said Universities should not be free. I believe a system as in Europe would be very good where students who achieve in high school are rewarded with a free university education payed for by the government. Students who "dont cut the mustard", if they are lucky enough to have the money can go to private run Universities (which in Europe are less prestigious and less desirable).

  3. #43
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Miami, Fl
    Posts
    18,661
    [QUOTE=Klecko73isGod;2644241]:clapper:

    Outstanding post Fish!!!

    Part of living in a free country is accepting other ideas. Our pluralism is our greatest strength as a society and the biggest thing that separates us from the terrorists.

    The number one thing they hate about America is that we accept other ideas. They hate that people can express themselves freely here. It drives them absolutely nuts.

    They hate this so much because if they allowed their own people to express themselves freely, they would lose their power in a heartbeat.

    There was a kid in my eighth grade homeroom that would not participate in the Pledge of Allegiance. His reasons were religious, something of his particular sect of Christianity (I can't for the life of me remember what his religion was) had a strict interpretation of the 10 Commandments and saw the Pledge as worshipping a false idol. He silently stood but did not put his hand over his heart and did not recite the Pledge.

    After the first few days, nobody was bothered by it and I grew up in a very conservative, working class community.

    The endgame was simple, we are the only society in the world in which his family could worship as they like and not have to worry about being thrown in jail or worse for their beliefs.

    That is why I love this country.[/QUOTE]

    here goes the good ole they hate our freedom gimmic..........

  4. #44
    [QUOTE=piney;2644489]



    also...as far as education goes I have been complaining for years that my taxes pay for other proples kids to go to school....I don't have any kids!!!!!!
    .....[/QUOTE]

    We cant pick and choose what taxes we want to pay based on our individual needs. The nation would crumble if everyone did that. Hell I pay taxes for maintaining roads i never use, i pay for a public transportation i never use, and for a city hospital i never use.

  5. #45
    [QUOTE=Mean Bro Green;2645067]here goes the good ole they hate our freedom gimmic..........[/QUOTE]

    They don't? They don't live in a society where women aren't allowed to drive, where the only acceptable chant at a soccer game is "Allah um akbar," where people get imprisoned and executed for disagreeing with the Imam?

    Yes, I forgot, Islamic extremists are very tolerant and open to new ideas. :rolleyes:

    You completely missed the point of my post. Wanting a kid to be punished for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegiance is step number one toward turning into a society like those in the midde east.

  6. #46
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    greenwich village, NYC
    Posts
    8,169
    [QUOTE=kennyo7;2645068]We cant pick and choose what taxes we want to pay based on our individual needs. The nation would crumble if everyone did that. Hell I pay taxes for maintaining roads i never use, i pay for a public transportation i never use, and for a city hospital i never use.[/QUOTE]

    Not to mention subsidizing all manner of corporations, farms, and commodities with our tax dollars. I wish those sugar prices would come down so I could enjoy a cheap bowl of Lucky Charms. But those damn feds are propping up the sugar producers. :)

    Re home schoolers, there's no reason they can't take standardized tests for college. The big problem with homeschooling receiving government money is the usual wall between church and state. Education in the schools should be secular if it is to receive government funding. The vast majority of home schoolers are doing so for religious reasons, from what I have seen. If they want to get their churches to provide them support from their coffers, so be it. But tax money for that purpose would be unconstitutional.

  7. #47
    Board Moderator
    Jets Insider VIP
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    State Location Here
    Posts
    8,263
    I'm too lazy to read the entire thread. Let me guess, somewhere in here some kook is claiming that the kid is actually being patriotic in refusing to stand for the pledge.

    I'm going to order a new bumper sticker: "My kid beat the **** out of your kid for refusing to stand up for the Pledge of Allegiance."

  8. #48
    [QUOTE=Mean Bro Green;2645059]you're offended that someone else wants to exercise their freedom to not stand for the pledge of allegiance?[/QUOTE]

    Wow.

    So my entire post agrees with the kids fundamental right to do what he did, and what you get out of it is not my support for Freedom (my intent) but that I might be offended?

    Talk about derailing a thread. You and Ken should get together. This thread isn't about Public Education as a right, nor is about my being offended. It's about the kids right to express his freedom, even if it IS offensive to someone else.

    It'd be nice if folks could actually make some effort to stay on topic once in a while.....

    But since you ask, yes his choice here, his expression of freedom offends me in a very slight and minor way. Similar to being offended if someone breaks wind whilst sitting next to you at work type offense.

    I personally believe standing for the pledge and facing the flag is a minimal-level respect gesture for the Nation that provides us with so much freedom and personal liberty. But am I crying in disgust that he choose nto to do so? Um, no. Not at all.

  9. #49
    [quote=2foolish197;2644018]how many have you burned?[/quote]

    None - why do you ask?

  10. #50
    [quote=jefethegreat;2644058]Support? Did I say anything about supporting public education? No. Participate is a much better word. If parents do not send there kids to public schools they should not have to pay for schooling they didn't use. Give people their money... they make much better decisions with it than the government does.[/quote]

    Its not a pay for service issue, which should be obvious since not everyone pays in equal amounts.

  11. #51
    [QUOTE=doggin94it;2645669]None - why do you ask?[/QUOTE]very good...very poor way to show one's patriotism..

  12. #52
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    greenwich village, NYC
    Posts
    8,169
    [QUOTE=shakin318;2645271]I'm too lazy to read the entire thread. Let me guess, somewhere in here some kook is claiming that the kid is actually being patriotic in refusing to stand for the pledge.

    I'm going to order a new bumper sticker: "My kid beat the **** out of your kid for refusing to stand up for the Pledge of Allegiance."[/QUOTE]

    You should have read the thread. No one said that. But we'll give you two "reactionary robot" points for not bothering to read yet still launching a meaningless attack. Way to go. I'm glad you're a republican too. along with D&D you're such a fine representative of conservative values. :rolleyes:

  13. #53
    [QUOTE=piney;2644651]I never said that there was anything wrong with being home-schooled...

    I was just saying, my proposition of paying taxes for schools only if your children are enrolled in public school could result in people not teaching their children and not paying taxes simply to get the extra cash...so to ensure that doesnt happen is to make sure that the children can pass some sort of standardized testing.[/QUOTE]

    I didn't think you did:) That's why I asked.:cool:

  14. #54
    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2645107]Not to mention subsidizing all manner of corporations, farms, and commodities with our tax dollars. I wish those sugar prices would come down so I could enjoy a cheap bowl of Lucky Charms. But those damn feds are propping up the sugar producers. :)

    Re home schoolers, there's no reason they can't take standardized tests for college. The big problem with homeschooling receiving government money is the usual wall between church and state. Education in the schools should be secular if it is to receive government funding. The vast majority of home schoolers are doing so for religious reasons, from what I have seen. If they want to get their churches to provide them support from their coffers, so be it. But tax money for that purpose would be unconstitutional.[/QUOTE]

    While I agree with the premise that most homescholed children are from religious homes, I do not think that all of them do it for religious reasons. Many I know simply think that public school standards for both behavior and learning are low.

    So under those conditions, if you were to deny them money (theoretically) that were available to others who also chose to homeschool for a lack of satisfaction with public schools but happen not to be religious, wouldn;t you be persucting based on religion? Especially if the students are not taking any classes that instruct in their particular faith during the hours allotted to study. If they faithfully studied the standard school curricula for the expected amount of time and then studied the Bible or Torah or Quran on their "free" time, would that disqualify them? Is there anything wrong with a child voluntarily being taight religion as part of the learning process? Whose "right" to not hear faith based material would be violated? Bible clubs exist in many schools whereon kids volunteer to learn religion; furthermore, courts have ruled that it is unconstitutional to deny such clubs if other extracurricular clubs are also allowed.

    I think it could very well be argued that it would be unconstitutional to deny the kids of a religious family money available to others just because of their faith. It would probably be a hack of a legal case.

    I wonder what Doggin thinks................. not that he is Oz on these matters, but he knws much more than I do:)
    Last edited by JCnflies; 07-25-2008 at 02:13 PM.

  15. #55
    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2645737]You should have read the thread. No one said that. But we'll give you two "reactionary robot" points for not bothering to read yet still launching a meaningless attack. Way to go. I'm glad you're a republican too. along with D&D you're such a fine representative of conservative values. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]so i guess the trial lawyer is out of the vp running huh?

  16. #56
    I have seen actions like this (and believe me, I have no problem with it though I disagree persoanlly) galvanize kids and make them appreciate those in harms way more. It causes them to think about exactly why they are standing.

    It is a bit like the great video of Rick Monday saving the flag from the morons at Dodger Stadium. I don;t use the term moron often, but those two guys fit the bill...............

    For those who have not seen it, it is awesome! I believe it is on you tube.

  17. #57
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    greenwich village, NYC
    Posts
    8,169
    [QUOTE=2foolish197;2645781]so i guess the trial lawyer is out of the vp running huh?[/QUOTE]

    Ding! Ding! Ding! We have another reactionary robot winner! A non sequitur response that contains an irrelevant attack. Man, they're coming out of the woodwork today. Where's the Raid when you need it.

  18. #58
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Chicago (Via Harlem, Via Madison WI)
    Posts
    2,571
    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2644163]First of all, I agree with your earlier post regarding the protection of liberty, even if we don't agree with someone's expression of it. Well said.

    Re education, there are several problems with your argument. First of all, public schools were a fixture in our towns and villages even before the framing of the Constitution. The idea of providing for the education of children was cherished by the founders as they knew how important an educated citizenry was in a democratic republic. Every state has had in its charter a commitment to public education. This is not some newfangled liberal notion. That the federal government established a Dept of Education is seen as an outgrowth of the Constitutional interest in furthering "arts and sciences" as well as being legitimized by the "general welfare" clause. It wouldn't be in the Bill of Rights. There was real interest from the beginning as well in forming a national university (I know, anathema to states rights and anti-federalists among us). What you are really arguing against is state taxation, much more than federal. It would be nice if we didn't have to pay taxes for services that were considered part of the general welfare of our state or nation... if I don't drive, why should I pay taxes toward road repair? etc. You're actually paying for an ideal... that kids in our country will be educated sufficiently to maintain our way of government. Stupidity, intolerance and ignorance is the fastest way for a representative form of government like ours to be flushed down the toilet.[/QUOTE]

    Great Post :thumbup:

    Imagine......taxes ala Carte

  19. #59
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    greenwich village, NYC
    Posts
    8,169
    [QUOTE=JCnflies;2645774]While I agree with the premise that most homescholed children are from religious homes, I do not think that all of them do it for religious reasons. Many I know simply think that public school standards for both behavior and learning are low.

    So under those conditions, if you were to deny them money (theoretically) that were available to others who also chose to homeschool for a lack of satisfaction with public schools but happen not to be religious, wouldn;t you be persucting based on religion? Especially if the students are not taking any classes that instruct in their particular faith during the hours allotted to study. If they faithfully studied the standard school curricula for the expected amount of time and then studied the Bible or Torah or Quran on their "free" time, would that disqualify them? Is there anything wrong with a child voluntarily being taight religion as part of the learning process? Whose "right" to not hear faith based material would be violated? Bible clubs exist in many schools whereon kids volunteer to learn religion; furthermore, courts have ruled that it is unconstitutional to deny such clubs if other extracurricular clubs are also allowed.

    I think it could very well be argued that it would be unconstitutional to deny the kids of a religious family money available to others just because of their faith. It would probably be a hack of a legal case.

    I wonder what Doggin thinks................. not that he is Oz on these matters, but he knws much more than I do:)[/QUOTE]

    I'll be happy to hear Doggin's response as well, but you seem to be meshing a bunch of ideas that need to be separated. The bottom line is that teh government does not fund religious education for the obvious reason that it would be a violation of the separation clause. What kids do in their spare time is not the business of the government, including participating in religious clubs, although I think it might be hard to determine in a public school setting when a line is being crossed re the "club" accessing services, space, or utilities that are taxpayer funded.

    Re your last point, I don't know what you mean when you refer to money being available to others but denied to the religious family. The religious family pays taxes and is not denied access to public education. What they are denied is the use of tax-generated funds to promote a specific religious belief via education. That function is where it belongs: in the churches, synagogues, mosques, or in home-schooling that the family voluntarily opts for out of their own pocket.

    One question: how would the government regulate what happens in a home school to validate that taxpayer monies are not being used for promote religious training? It seems an impossible task.

  20. #60
    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2645803]Ding! Ding! Ding! We have another reactionary robot winner! A non sequitur response that contains an irrelevant attack. Man, they're coming out of the woodwork today. Where's the Raid when you need it.[/QUOTE]i'm asking if this will take him out of the running.wow you get so defensive so quickly.would you really spray me with raid?

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us