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Thread: National Healthcare

  1. #1
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    National Healthcare

    There are many arquments stating the positives of a National Healthcare System. I happen to agree with a few, but one has to keep in mind we have one of the largest welfare systems in the modern world (France, Canada and England) meaning in those 3 countries a great portion are contributing to pay for their healthcare system. Thinking of the US we have a whole different ballgame we have a large welfare system, people taking from a system but giving little in return and a ever increasing illegal immigrant population.
    So I ask how are we going to pay for this?

  2. #2
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    [QUOTE=MnJetFan;2663832]So I ask how are we going to pay for this?[/QUOTE]

    Taxation.

  3. #3
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    Like we are paying for two wars.

    [QUOTE=Warfish;2663927]Taxation.[/QUOTE]

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    yup

    [QUOTE=cr726;2663967]Like we are paying for two wars.[/QUOTE]

    just print the money out of thin air and completely devalue the US dollar ultimately leading this country into a depression reminiscent of 1929... after this we will have a new currency called the AMERO and this will be shared with mexico and canada who will all use the AMERO (kinda like THE EURO). The international bankers will be happy as the NEW WORLD ORDER will be closer to being a reality... at this point USA will be a facade as all sovereignty will be lost to the NAU (north american union)

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    Taxation

    If you raise taxes thru the roof, the economy will go into a total tailspin.

  6. #6
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    We are looking at a bigger deficit every year, but not raising taxes helps.

    [QUOTE=MnJetFan;2663990]Taxation

    If you raise taxes thru the roof, the economy will go into a total tailspin.[/QUOTE]

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    I remember watching Sicko and the one point he made that has kind of stuck in my head was that we've socialized police, fire departments, etc. and they're working out alright, so why not medical care too? Anybody got an answer to that, other than being anti-socialist in general?

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    I think this is the point at which some actual numbers are useful, rather than the usual generalized statements which amount to prejudice (either way). First of all, the biggest three programs in the federal budget are defense, social security, and medicare. Those three programs alone constitute about 55% of the federal budget, with defense and social security weighing in at around 20-25% each, and Medicare at around 12% (I'm leaving room for various budget estimates). Medicaid is around 9% of the Federal budget, while all "safety net" programs combined add another 9%. So the total of programs for "poor" people is around 18%. Interest on the federal debt exceeds the cost of our entire Medicaid budget, and it's growing!

    Okay, enough of that. Bottom line is that four things have to happen to afford government management of private health insurance that includes the many uninsured....

    1. Reduction in defense spending
    2. Reduction in medicare disbursement/exclusion of wealthy participants
    3. Tightening of Social Security eligibility
    3. Elimination of the federal deficit

  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2664039]I think this is the point at which some actual numbers are useful, rather than the usual generalized statements which amount to prejudice (either way). First of all, the biggest three programs in the federal budget are defense, social security, and medicare. Those three programs alone constitute about 55% of the federal budget, with defense and social security weighing in at around 20-25% each, and Medicare at around 12% (I'm leaving room for various budget estimates). Medicaid is around 9% of the Federal budget, while all "safety net" programs combined add another 9%. So the total of programs for "poor" people is around 18%. Interest on the federal debt exceeds the cost of our entire Medicaid budget, and it's growing!

    Okay, enough of that. Bottom line is that four things have to happen to afford government management of private health insurance that includes the many uninsured....

    1. Reduction in defense spending
    2. Reduction in medicare disbursement/exclusion of wealthy participants
    3. Tightening of Social Security eligibility
    3. Elimination of the federal deficit[/QUOTE]

    You left out the key thing, huge economic expansion, without it the growing population of the elderly will swamp our budget.

    How are you going to exclude wealthy participanst who have paid into a system that was not designed as a means tested social welfare system without a huge portion of the population feeling betrayed? If SS and Medicare become just another means tested Welfare program, what is the justification for having a seperate tax and budget for them?

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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;2664052]You left out the key thing, huge economic expansion, without it the growing population of the elderly will swamp our budget.

    How are you going to exclude wealthy participanst who have paid into a system that was not designed as a means tested social welfare system without a huge portion of the population feeling betrayed? If SS and Medicare become just another means tested Welfare program, what is the justification for having a seperate tax and budget for them?[/QUOTE]


    Those are all good points and with Medicare and SS, you raise precisely the point that makes gaining control of these programs so difficult. Medicare and SS are pretty clearly middle-class entitlements. Anyone who is reasonably weathly in all likelihood has private health insurance and can afford to pay the premiums. Privatizing SS is another option. Not saying I have the magic solution, but I do think a hybid (public/private national healthcare package) is possible. I would picture it as something similar to the federal employees health benefits package, which would allow individuals to choose among private companies while gaining reduced premium costs for both themselves and their small business providers as well as eliminating exclusion criteria. A nationally managed plan would also allow the government to negotiate with pharmaceuticals to reduce medication prices based on volume as well. I think it can work.

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    [QUOTE=MnJetFan;2663832]There are many arquments stating the positives of a National Healthcare System. I happen to agree with a few, but one has to keep in mind we have one of the largest welfare systems in the modern world (France, Canada and England) meaning in those 3 countries a great portion are contributing to pay for their healthcare system. Thinking of the US we have a whole different ballgame we have a large welfare system, people taking from a system but giving little in return and a ever increasing illegal immigrant population.
    So I ask how are we going to pay for this?[/QUOTE]

    One point: What's being proposed this time around is not "national healthcare" per se but rather "national health insurance." There's a difference.

    As many have pointed out, we already have "national healthcare" because anyone --even those illegal immigrants-- can show up at and ER an get treated today, and you and I are subsidizing the cost for them.

    The idea of national health insurance is to make health insurance more affordable so that nobody is priced out of having it, reducing the number of freeloaders and --in the long run-- reducing costs as a result.
    Last edited by nuu faaola; 08-03-2008 at 11:17 AM.

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2664073]Those are all good points and with Medicare and SS, you raise precisely the point that makes gaining control of these programs so difficult. Medicare and SS are pretty clearly middle-class entitlements. Anyone who is reasonably weathly in all likelihood has private health insurance and can afford to pay the premiums. Privatizing SS is another option. Not saying I have the magic solution, but I do think a hybid (public/private national healthcare package) is possible. I would picture it as something similar to the federal employees health benefits package, which would allow individuals to choose among private companies while gaining reduced premium costs for both themselves and their small business providers as well as eliminating exclusion criteria. A nationally managed plan would also allow the government to negotiate with pharmaceuticals to reduce medication prices based on volume as well. I think it can work.[/QUOTE]

    Reality when Obama tells all those wealthy older Americans who lived through the depression, fought for Unions, fought in WW 2 and put their money into the system that they are leaches on society, the Democratic party is finished.

    In 10 years when all of those people are dead and the Government steals their savings they can say it to the Baby Boomers because they never believed the Government would pay off on their promises anyway.

    Instead of means testing based on need, why not means test based on how much you earned? Why should someone who didn't save get my money in retirenment? I get a statement every year saying how much I put in and how much I will get out based on when I take it. If all of that was just a bunch of BS why should anyone put any faith in anything our government proposes going forward?

    Change we can believe in can't happen until obligations that were committed are lived up to. If they aren't change is just more BS that has no real meaning.

    SS is not a middle class entitlement, it has been paid into by all Americans and they are entitled to get it back as promised. If that's not the case the current system should just be scraped and we should just call it welfare or a government hand out.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 08-03-2008 at 12:49 PM.

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    two truths
    1. we have the BEST heath care and hospitals in the world (if you want to argue this point why do people come from all over the world to go to our hospitals?
    2. NO ONE is denied heathcare in this country including illegals. some may wait longer then others, but they are treated.

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    Just Wondering...

    Since I'll be helping PAY for the "Free Healthcare" for people who don't have coverage, do I have any say in how that will be instituted?

    I mean, if I'm to be held responsible for paying for someone elses Medical Insurance through higher taxes on my income or spending, will I (and everyone else paying for this "FREE HEALTHCARE") have the RIGHT to say to people receiving care on MY dime that they may NO LONGER SMOKE?

    How about Drink? or have a BMI over, say, 40?

    If we are to be responsible to PAY for someone elses Healthcare, then we should have the right to set some terms of that care, right? Therefore I think if this is to actually ever happen, some limitations on those receiving "Free Universal Healthcare" would be appropriate.


    It seems only fair that if I'm given the responsibility of someones Medical Care, I should be able to mitigate abuse of the system by imposing common sense limits on factors that are a detriment to health...

    Then again, it seems to me that Welfare and Public Assistace recipients should have MANDATORY random drug tests to recieve that aid...after all, most of us that PAY for these assistance programs get drug tested to work our jobs and earn our salaries.

    It would only seem fair that these people LIVING off of these assistance programs are drug tested and required to actually TRY to get off these programs.

    But maybe I'm just a nut. I mean, actually expecting a little self-control and responsibility from people? Thats just crazy

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    [QUOTE=Jet_Engine1;2664277]Since I'll be helping PAY for the "Free Healthcare" for people who don't have coverage, do I have any say in how that will be instituted?

    I mean, if I'm to be held responsible for paying for someone elses Medical Insurance through higher taxes on my income or spending, will I (and everyone else paying for this "FREE HEALTHCARE") have the RIGHT to say to people receiving care on MY dime that they may NO LONGER SMOKE?

    How about Drink? or have a BMI over, say, 40?

    If we are to be responsible to PAY for someone elses Healthcare, then we should have the right to set some terms of that care, right? Therefore I think if this is to actually ever happen, some limitations on those receiving "Free Universal Healthcare" would be appropriate.


    It seems only fair that if I'm given the responsibility of someones Medical Care, I should be able to mitigate abuse of the system by imposing common sense limits on factors that are a detriment to health...

    Then again, it seems to me that Welfare and Public Assistace recipients should have MANDATORY random drug tests to recieve that aid...after all, most of us that PAY for these assistance programs get drug tested to work our jobs and earn our salaries.

    It would only seem fair that these people LIVING off of these assistance programs are drug tested and required to actually TRY to get off these programs.

    But maybe I'm just a nut. I mean, actually expecting a little self-control and responsibility from people? Thats just crazy[/QUOTE]

    How do you think insurance companies determine their premiums? That's right, you pay for all the people in the plan who didn't take care of themselves, assuming they didn't have a pre-existing condition and couldn't get the insurance in the first place. And if you know anything about capitation, you know that all healthcare plans desire the recipient who is healthy and will rarely use the system. They pay for the outliers.

    As for acepepe, he clearly doesn't work in healthcare and hasn't read a single study of how our healthcare in the US compares to other countries, nor is he aware that other than humanitarian aid via ER's, millions are indeed denied healthcare in the US unless they can pay out of pocket. Try paying for almost any significant surgical procedure out of pocket. It ain't cheap. For that matter, how many people can't even afford a dentist in this country? Acepepe is living in a dream world.

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    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2664409]How do you think insurance companies determine their premiums? That's right, you pay for all the people in the plan who didn't take care of themselves, assuming they didn't have a pre-existing condition and couldn't get the insurance in the first place. And if you know anything about capitation, you know that all healthcare plans desire the recipient who is healthy and will rarely use the system. They pay for the outliers.

    As for acepepe, he clearly doesn't work in healthcare and hasn't read a single study of how our healthcare in the US compares to other countries, nor is he aware that other than humanitarian aid via ER's, millions are indeed denied healthcare in the US unless they can pay out of pocket. Try paying for almost any significant surgical procedure out of pocket. It ain't cheap. For that matter, how many people can't even afford a dentist in this country? Acepepe is living in a dream world.[/QUOTE]

    my "dream world" is living next to the BIGGIST med center in the world. I also have several friends who are doctors there and i can assure you no one is left untreated. As I asked, if health care is so great elsewhere why do people from all over the world come here? I have friends in England who are Bobbies at scotland yard that have to pay supplimental because their "free" heathcare SUCKS. So daddy scocialist,as the old saying goes, You think healthcare is expensive now wait til its free.. been to Sweden the "free" health care sucks as well. scocialism/ communism will ALWAYS fail in the long run. One other thing why do the "poor alway seam to have money for cigarette's and beer but no money for a dentist?which by the way is also provided free by the gummint
    Last edited by acepepe; 08-03-2008 at 05:22 PM.

  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=cr726;2663967][QUOTE=Warfish]Taxation.[/QUOTE]Like we are paying for two wars.[/QUOTE]

    Yes, exactly.

    One unavoidable aspect of Big Govt. and High Tax & Spend Policies is that we, the individual citizenry, wil likely find much that we pay for that we do not support.

    [QUOTE=Sharrow;2664019]we've socialized police, fire departments, etc. and they're working out alright[/QUOTE]

    Working out alright? Really, I wonder if you'd say that if you lived in Washington D.C., an enclave of Democratic Control for ages now. Somehow I don't think "working out alright" fits.

    The reason why we should not socialize Medicial Care is control and freedom, simple as that.

    There was an interesting story the other day I heard, about a women in Oregon whose Cancer had returned. She was a part of that States socialized all-covered medical system, and she received a letter in the mail.....telling her that the drug she needed to trest her cancer symptoms was not approved, as it wasn't a cure, but only a symptom reducer.....but the same letter made sure to remind her that physician assisted suicide was an option she could consider.

    In a nutshell, that story described everything wrong with bloated inefficient, uncaring monlithic all-powerful State Run Govt. The victim, sorry I mean patient, has no control and no freedom other than what the State, in it;s wisdom, decides she should have. And I do not trust the State to make those decisions.

    If "Socialized" medicine mixes private insurance (today's system) with Govt. Welfare-Care (for those with no coverage), then I'm fine with it.....I can continue to contract privately for the care I need and have earned by my labor.

    But if it comes down to a one-source, Socialized Heathcare Only system, well.......

  18. #18
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    [QUOTE=acepepe;2664613]why do the "poor alway seam to have money for cigarette's and beer but no money for a dentist?[/QUOTE]

    This made me lol.....not in humour, but in frustration.

    One need only look at the low-cost Supermarket near my home to see this in action every single day.........supposedly "poor" folsk come in, buy $500 worth of groceries with WIC Checks, Food Stamps and other welfare/benefit programs, then drop another $100 on beer, cigarettes and other non-qualifying "luxury" items. Then they leave and walk out to a 2007 Cadillac Escalde, Acura or Lexus in the lot.

    Look, I'm not against helping the needy. I am against waste. And I don't need to be told what it looks like, I see it every time I go shopping. If I saw even a minimum of concern on teh part of today's socialist liberals abotu dealing with abuse of teh sstems and waste, they might win me over to some degree. But they don't, and they don't.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2664649]This made me lol.....not in humour, but in frustration.

    One need only look at the low-cost Supermarket near my home to see this in action every single day.........supposedly "poor" folsk come in, buy $500 worth of groceries with WIC Checks, Food Stamps and other welfare/benefit programs, then drop another $100 on beer, cigarettes and other non-qualifying "luxury" items. Then they leave and walk out to a 2007 Cadillac Escalde, Acura or Lexus in the lot.

    Look, I'm not against helping the needy. I am against waste. And I don't need to be told what it looks like, I see it every time I go shopping. If I saw even a minimum of concern on teh part of today's socialist liberals abotu dealing with abuse of teh sstems and waste, they might win me over to some degree. But they don't, and they don't.[/QUOTE]
    Big momma a couple of weeks ago, buying the 30 pack variety 6 oz. bags of snacks (10 times the cost) and a case of soda 12 oz. cans. no worries her fat ass was payin with the lonestar card. turned my stomach

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=acepepe;2664271]two truths
    1. we have the BEST heath care and hospitals in the world (if you want to argue this point why do people come from all over the world to go to our hospitals?[/QUOTE]

    Mostly they come here for the specialists, not the average care that normal Americans receive.

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