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Thread: John McCain, More of The Same

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2669619]A few questions then:

    --Why are you taking the Federal Governments Estimate? The Oil Companies have said they could exploit it much faster than the Govt. estimate, and in matters of "how long will it take" I trust teh Oil Companes and their experience over the Govt. Beauracrats, who see everythign in terms of decades, not years.

    --Second, Why not legislate that ALL Oil gained from these new drilling be required to stay in the U.S. and dispalce foreign imports? There is no law against protectionism, if it's appropriate.

    --Third, you claim the "growing Indian and Chineese Middle Class" will eat up more than we get.......and that may or may not even be true to start, those groups are growing, but no one knows the future enough to guarantee they will continue to do so. Any additional supply will help to minimize price increases. Even if more drilling simply keeps prices stable, instead of rising each year, how is that bad?

    You also keep going back to Democrat-fed talking points on how much and how long it will take, and I just can't talk to folks who so slavishly take their "facts" from Democrat Party Memorandum. again, when it comes to issues of Oil, I'll take the 12 Billion in Profit Exxon Miobil opinuion before I take the 30 Billion in Taxation Federal Government. Thsui far, they''ve sat on their asses (both parties) for years letting this seethe and rot, whilst the American taxpayer pays for Environemntal Extremism and Environmental Special Interest Groups.

    The fact here is that you must beleive drillign will have no impact, or you cannot support the Democrats. You must buy into their propaganda, or else how could you rationalize a Party who was elected on lowering gas prices, and has done nothing while gas prices almost doubled. How could you support a party who seems to be doing what will get them elected, and now hat will serve theri citizenry. How can you support a party whose entire Energy plan is "Cross yer Fingers and Pray Alt Fuel comes sooner rather that Later, and lets tax everyone we can to help it along, and screw teh reality "on the ground" when it comes to Oil Use" all to please the Environemntal Fringe who think the World will pop like a baloon under a hairdryer in 6 months if all Oil isn;t made illegal.

    You, and the Dems, do not want real world solutions. You want (as Dems always do) absolute adherence to their singular ideals of the world. We can't drill for more Oil, cause Dems don;t believe in oil. We cannot build Nuke Plants, cause dems dont; believe in Nuke Plants. All we can do is talk a great game about Alt Fuel and Utopian Dreams of electric cars today! and All Solar Houses Today! But they never mention how they'll (or we'll) pay for it, how long THAT will take, and how we all will ahve to get by till then with what we got.

    No, for a Dem, and a Dem supporter, it's easier to simply vomit up talking points "Drilling will take 1000 years, and no effect supply for 10,000 years, ane even then it will onyl lower prices $0.000000001 a Gallon if that! Hurumph, harumph! Alt-Fuel will save us Today at No Cost to You (except 95% taxation to fund it, dicovery or not)!"

    Like on every issue, the Dem Mantra is "Results do not matter, only good intentions". it was easy to be that idealistic when I was young, but it gets harder every day sitting watchign these losers do nothing while Americans starve for more enegry.[/QUOTE]


    :applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2669619]A few questions then:

    --Why are you taking the Federal Governments Estimate? The Oil Companies have said they could exploit it much faster than the Govt. estimate, and in matters of "how long will it take" I trust teh Oil Companes and their experience over the Govt. Beauracrats, who see everythign in terms of decades, not years.

    --Second, Why not legislate that ALL Oil gained from these new drilling be required to stay in the U.S. and dispalce foreign imports? There is no law against protectionism, if it's appropriate.

    --Third, you claim the "growing Indian and Chineese Middle Class" will eat up more than we get.......and that may or may not even be true to start, those groups are growing, but no one knows the future enough to guarantee they will continue to do so. Any additional supply will help to minimize price increases. Even if more drilling simply keeps prices stable, instead of rising each year, how is that bad?

    You also keep going back to Democrat-fed talking points on how much and how long it will take, and I just can't talk to folks who so slavishly take their "facts" from Democrat Party Memorandum. again, when it comes to issues of Oil, I'll take the 12 Billion in Profit Exxon Miobil opinuion before I take the 30 Billion in Taxation Federal Government. Thsui far, they''ve sat on their asses (both parties) for years letting this seethe and rot, whilst the American taxpayer pays for Environemntal Extremism and Environmental Special Interest Groups.

    The fact here is that you must beleive drillign will have no impact, or you cannot support the Democrats. You must buy into their propaganda, or else how could you rationalize a Party who was elected on lowering gas prices, and has done nothing while gas prices almost doubled. How could you support a party who seems to be doing what will get them elected, and now hat will serve theri citizenry. How can you support a party whose entire Energy plan is "Cross yer Fingers and Pray Alt Fuel comes sooner rather that Later, and lets tax everyone we can to help it along, and screw teh reality "on the ground" when it comes to Oil Use" all to please the Environemntal Fringe who think the World will pop like a baloon under a hairdryer in 6 months if all Oil isn;t made illegal.

    You, and the Dems, do not want real world solutions. You want (as Dems always do) absolute adherence to their singular ideals of the world. We can't drill for more Oil, cause Dems don;t believe in oil. We cannot build Nuke Plants, cause dems dont; believe in Nuke Plants. All we can do is talk a great game about Alt Fuel and Utopian Dreams of electric cars today! and All Solar Houses Today! But they never mention how they'll (or we'll) pay for it, how long THAT will take, and how we all will ahve to get by till then with what we got.

    No, for a Dem, and a Dem supporter, it's easier to simply vomit up talking points "Drilling will take 1000 years, and no effect supply for 10,000 years, ane even then it will onyl lower prices $0.000000001 a Gallon if that! Hurumph, harumph! Alt-Fuel will save us Today at No Cost to You (except 95% taxation to fund it, dicovery or not)!"

    Like on every issue, the Dem Mantra is "Results do not matter, only good intentions". it was easy to be that idealistic when I was young, but it gets harder every day sitting watchign these losers do nothing while Americans starve for more enegry.[/QUOTE]

    your whole argument is meaningless, as long as you demand more oil, regardless of where it comes from then you're on the wrong path

    talk alternatives to crude oil and you'll make more sense

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=Mean Bro Green;2669768]your whole argument is meaningless, as long as you demand more oil, regardless of where it comes from then you're on the wrong path

    talk alternatives to crude oil and you'll make more sense[/QUOTE]

    What would you suggest we do while we wait for all these alternatives to oil???? What makes no sense is to do nothing. Do you really think we will come up an alternative with in even 15 years?? Think a little before you say someone makes no sense.

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2669619]A few questions then:

    --Why are you taking the Federal Governments Estimate? The Oil Companies have said they could exploit it much faster than the Govt. estimate, and in matters of "how long will it take" I trust teh Oil Companes and their experience over the Govt. Beauracrats, who see everythign in terms of decades, not years.

    --Second, Why not legislate that ALL Oil gained from these new drilling be required to stay in the U.S. and dispalce foreign imports? There is no law against protectionism, if it's appropriate.

    --Third, you claim the "growing Indian and Chineese Middle Class" will eat up more than we get.......and that may or may not even be true to start, those groups are growing, but no one knows the future enough to guarantee they will continue to do so. Any additional supply will help to minimize price increases. Even if more drilling simply keeps prices stable, instead of rising each year, how is that bad?

    You also keep going back to Democrat-fed talking points on how much and how long it will take, and I just can't talk to folks who so slavishly take their "facts" from Democrat Party Memorandum. again, when it comes to issues of Oil, I'll take the 12 Billion in Profit Exxon Miobil opinuion before I take the 30 Billion in Taxation Federal Government. Thsui far, they''ve sat on their asses (both parties) for years letting this seethe and rot, whilst the American taxpayer pays for Environemntal Extremism and Environmental Special Interest Groups.

    The fact here is that you must beleive drillign will have no impact, or you cannot support the Democrats. You must buy into their propaganda, or else how could you rationalize a Party who was elected on lowering gas prices, and has done nothing while gas prices almost doubled. How could you support a party who seems to be doing what will get them elected, and now hat will serve theri citizenry. How can you support a party whose entire Energy plan is "Cross yer Fingers and Pray Alt Fuel comes sooner rather that Later, and lets tax everyone we can to help it along, and screw teh reality "on the ground" when it comes to Oil Use" all to please the Environemntal Fringe who think the World will pop like a baloon under a hairdryer in 6 months if all Oil isn;t made illegal.

    You, and the Dems, do not want real world solutions. You want (as Dems always do) absolute adherence to their singular ideals of the world. We can't drill for more Oil, cause Dems don;t believe in oil. We cannot build Nuke Plants, cause dems dont; believe in Nuke Plants. All we can do is talk a great game about Alt Fuel and Utopian Dreams of electric cars today! and All Solar Houses Today! But they never mention how they'll (or we'll) pay for it, how long THAT will take, and how we all will ahve to get by till then with what we got.

    No, for a Dem, and a Dem supporter, it's easier to simply vomit up talking points "Drilling will take 1000 years, and no effect supply for 10,000 years, ane even then it will onyl lower prices $0.000000001 a Gallon if that! Hurumph, harumph! Alt-Fuel will save us Today at No Cost to You (except 95% taxation to fund it, dicovery or not)!"

    Like on every issue, the Dem Mantra is "Results do not matter, only good intentions". it was easy to be that idealistic when I was young, but it gets harder every day sitting watchign these losers do nothing while Americans starve for more enegry.[/QUOTE]


    To answer your questions:

    1) The government's estimate is the closest thing to impartial that we have. The companies stand to gain hundred of millions of dollars; clearly they have a greater bias involved than a gov't agency that has no skin in the game. I've also read that the equipment needed to create offshore rigs is kinda rare and tends to be subject to long waits to get it, fwiw.

    2) I think --as a bit producer of oil that imports far more than it exports-- playing protectionist games with oil opens us up to a world of hurt. I'm not even sure how you'd really go about doing that anyway, seeing as the drilling would be done by companies who lease the land, companies that are major players in the global oil market.

    3) The growth in India and China is the central economic fact of the new century. I know of no serious economist who disagrees with that. China is 30 years into a boom that, based on its population, really hasn't even started yet. India is not far behind. There's really nothing we can do about it except to prepare ourselves for a world in which we have company and competition as the dominant consumer nation. That means getting ourselves less dependent on commodities for which we'll have to basically bid against these giants.

    4) The fact is, drilling will likely result in a price difference of pennies per gallon, the trends I outlined above are going to result in differences of dollars. The only thing we can do that will offset that sort of impact is to dramatically alter the way we use oil. And the way to do that is to start roling out proven alternative energy sources (solar and wind) in real scale.

    If some drilling and some nukes are what it takes to get those necessary steps taken, I'm personally fine with that. (I tend to be more bullish on nukes than my party, though I've yet to hear any good ideas about where the waste ought to go.) But it's not the drilling that's going to wind up saving our energy costs, because the cost of oil --if we continue to consume it at the same rate-- is beyond saving.

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2669918]To answer your questions:

    1) The government's estimate is the closest thing to impartial that we have.[/quote]

    If you think the Federal Govt. Beaurocracy is "impartial", you clearly have no experience workign with or for them. Calling Govt. Agencies impartial is like calling congress impartial, it's a bad joke.

    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2669918]The companies stand to gain hundred of millions of dollars; clearly they have a greater bias involved than a gov't agency that has no skin in the game.[/quote]

    Of course they do, thats my point. The Govt. has nothing to gain but more tax revenue it didn't earn, but the Private Businesses have to RISK alot to gain alot, and would be a far better source of expertise on how long it would take them to get it.

    It's teh same as this lame "68 Million Acres" agument. There is good reason they havn't exploited that, it's bad business and minimal gain.

    It's easy enough to make the Oil Industry put up or shut up on this: Offer them a 10 to 1 trade in from that so-wonderfully-useless 68 Million Acres to trade for offshore rights.

    And before you give them a thing, you force them to give you a timeline, and a contract with the Govt. to do what they say in the time they say it or face stiff penalties. Done and done.

    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2669918]I've also read that the equipment needed to create offshore rigs is kinda rare and tends to be subject to long waits to get it, fwiw.[/quote]

    Democrat Propaganda. Just like ti will take 100,000 years to get Oil from Offshore. It's excuse making for doing nothing.

    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2669918]2) I think --as a bit producer of oil that imports far more than it exports-- playing protectionist games with oil opens us up to a world of hurt.[/quote]

    Read what you just wrote a few times till you realize what you're saying.

    As the biggest importer, Foreign Sellers require us, like it or not, at least at current. A small dose of protectionism would not make them run to the hills, no, what it WOULD liekly do it force price reductions to try and get us to contineu buying their Oil as we do now.

    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2669918]I'm not even sure how you'd really go about doing that anyway, seeing as the drilling would be done by companies who lease the land, companies that are major players in the global oil market.[/quote]

    Ah, the old "It's too hard so why bother" argument. when there is a concerted Will, there IS a way. We could find out if Congress cared enough to try......oh, right.

    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2669918]3) The growth in India and China is the central economic fact of the new century. I know of no serious economist who disagrees with that.[/quote]

    Strawman. You don;t "know" any serious economists. You take what you read in the few articles you've read on the subject, teh majority of whcih I am willing to bet were in Liberal Papers or from Liberal Sources.

    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2669918]China is 30 years into a boom that, based on its population, really hasn't even started yet. India is not far behind. There's really nothing we can do about it except to prepare ourselves for a world in which we have company and competition as the dominant consumer nation. That means getting ourselves less dependent on commodities for which we'll have to basically bid against these giants.[/quote]

    No one is saying it'll be easy to compete with them. But limiting our own production (less supply) for so-called Environmental reasons while World-wide demand is skyrocketing (increased demand) is a one way ticket to inflation, massive price increases, massive cost increases, gas shortages and worse.

    All on the idealistic utopian dream that Alt-Fuel will be here any moment now to save us all. And all on the idea that we "have" to change, to save the previously aforementioned popping baloon planet scenario.

    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2669918]4) The fact is, drilling will likely result in a price difference of pennies per gallon, the trends I outlined above are going to result in differences of dollars. [/quote]

    More propaganda. It's not even worth replying to it's so callously biased and spoon fed.

    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2669918]The only thing we can do that will offset that sort of impact is to dramatically alter the way we use oil. And the way to do that is to start roling out proven alternative energy sources (solar and wind) in real scale.[/quote]

    I.e. "Our Way, or the Highway" Democrat thinking yet again.

    "The Only Solution is the One We Democrats FEEL is the Right Course, And Shucks, We Sure Do Mean Well Don't We?"

    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2669918]If some drilling and some nukes are what it takes to get those necessary steps taken, I'm personally fine with that.[/QUOTE]

    Sure you are. Really, I totally believe you.

  6. #26
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    Must be nice to just say "propoganda" over and over again rather than engaging an argument with facts.

    To dismiss the growth of China and India as anything less than a transformative global event is, frankly, sad. It's not a debatable point anymore than gravity is.

    The idea that foreign sellers would never tell us to take a walk is, I think, quite clearly debunked by history, as oil producing nations have done exactly that in the past. Yes, their prices would drop, but the damage to our economy (as currently construed)

    As for my reading list, which you assume (incorrectly) is all "liberal papers and liberal sources," the book I read most recently that really impacted my thinking on this is "The Post-American World" by Fareed Zakaria, a nonpartisan who is one of the most respected thinkers on global affairs. Really good book informed by solid reporting and fact and refreshingly nonpartisan.

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2669372]The drop in prices in the last two weeks has absolutely nothing to do with drilling and everything to do with demand. High prices are causing people to drive less --and use less gas-- and that's why prices are falling. It's that simple.

    According to this story, U.S. drivers logged 9.6 billion fewer miles in May than the year before, the largest percentage decrease ever recorded for that usually travel-heavy month.

    Prices always fall when demand drops.

    [url]http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-07-28-miles-driven-may_N.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

    It isn't just decreasing demand that has caused gas prices to drop - the Oil Companies are being slick (pardon the pun) rolling back prices in an election year.

    The last thing the oil companies want is Obama in the White House and Senator Dorgan's Oil Speculator Legislation. If Oil Prices are perceived to continue increasing it hurts McCain and the Republican's chances for winning the election.

    So what do the oil companies do? Their best play of course. Roll back prices just enough to make consumers think this trend will stop. Ofcourse they're still making tons of profits since it still costs around $4.00 for a gallon of gas.

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=sec.101row23;2669350]Plus ethanol does not burn as efficiently as gas and produces more emmissions. [/QUOTE]

    Studies have shown that ethanol is 6-10% less efficient than gas. Given that it's cheaper than gas it balances out. Also:

    Environment & Clean Air

    Fossil fuel-based gasoline is the largest source of man-made carcinogens and the number one source of toxic emissions, according to the U.S. EPA. Ethanol is a renewable, environmentally friendly fuel that is inherently cleaner than gasoline. Ethanol reduces harmful tailpipe emissions of carbon monoxide, particulate matter, oxides of nitrogen, and other ozone-forming pollutants.

    The use of ethanol-blended fuel helps reduce the environmental and economic impacts of gasoline consumption on our society.

    Read more in the research Clearing the Air - a Review of the Real-World Impacts of Using Ethanol-Blended Fuel and in Ethanol: A Convenient Solution to the Inconvenient Truth

    Ethanol Clean Air Facts:

    Ethanol blends are likely to reduce carbon monoxide emissions in vehicles by between 10% - 30%, depending upon the combustion technology. (U.S. EPA)
    The American Lung Association of Metropolitan Chicago credits ethanol-blended fuel with reducing smog-forming emissions by 25% since 1990.
    The use of 10% ethanol blends reduces greenhouse gas emissions by 12-19% compared to conventional gasoline. (Argonne National Lab)
    In 2004, ethanol use in the U.S. reduced CO2-equivalent greenhouse gas emissions by approximately 7 million tons, equal to removing the emissions of more than 1 million cars from the road. (Argonne National Lab)
    Research shows a 35-46% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions and a 50-60% reduction in fossil energy use due to the use of ethanol as a motor fuel. (Argonne National Lab)
    Ethanol contains 35% oxygen, making it burn more cleanly and completely than gasoline.
    E85 has the highest oxygen content of any fuel available, making it burn even more cleanly and even more completely than any other fuel.
    E85 contains 80% fewer gum-forming compounds than gasoline.
    Ethanol is highly biodegradable, making it safer for the environment.

    [QUOTE]Look at what has happened to oil prices in the last 2 weeks. The fact that lifting the ban on drilling has picked up a lot of support in this country..has speculators taking action already[/QUOTE]

    You are so easily manipulated by Right-Wing radio and the corporate media. Oil prices have droped b/c it's the Oil Companies best play right now to back off on raising prices 4 months prior to a national election. It's still around $4.00 a gallon nationwide anyway. Once McCain wins the election in November the oil prices are going back up, the same trend that's been happening for the past 8 years.

    Why don't you so some research instead of listening to that fat, drug-addicted draft dodger Rush Limbaugh and the right-wing cheerleaders on Faux News.

  9. #29
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    [quote=Warfish;2669619]

    Like on every issue, the Dem Mantra is "Results do not matter, only good intentions". it was easy to be that idealistic when I was young, but it gets harder every day sitting watchign these losers do nothing while Americans starve for more enegry.[/quote]

    Hope...change...hope...change...change...hope...

    It's a miracle, my gas tank is full and it didn't cost me a dime!

  10. #30
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    I got my home boiler to run off of converted Chinese restaurant waste oil. Suck on that high home heating oil prices. My chimney will smell like General Tso's...

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=VincenzoTestaverde;2670483]Studies have shown that ethanol is 6-10% less efficient than gas. Given that it's cheaper than gas it balances out. Also:

    Environment & Clean Air

    Fossil fuel-based gasoline is the largest source of man-made carcinogens and the number one source of toxic emissions, according to the U.S. EPA. Ethanol is a renewable, environmentally friendly fuel that is inherently cleaner than gasoline. Ethanol reduces harmful tailpipe emissions of carbon monoxide, particulate matter, oxides of nitrogen, and other ozone-forming pollutants.

    The use of ethanol-blended fuel helps reduce the environmental and economic impacts of gasoline consumption on our society.

    Read more in the research Clearing the Air - a Review of the Real-World Impacts of Using Ethanol-Blended Fuel and in Ethanol: A Convenient Solution to the Inconvenient Truth

    Ethanol Clean Air Facts:

    Ethanol blends are likely to reduce carbon monoxide emissions in vehicles by between 10% - 30%, depending upon the combustion technology. (U.S. EPA)
    The American Lung Association of Metropolitan Chicago credits ethanol-blended fuel with reducing smog-forming emissions by 25% since 1990.
    The use of 10% ethanol blends reduces greenhouse gas emissions by 12-19% compared to conventional gasoline. (Argonne National Lab)
    In 2004, ethanol use in the U.S. reduced CO2-equivalent greenhouse gas emissions by approximately 7 million tons, equal to removing the emissions of more than 1 million cars from the road. (Argonne National Lab)
    Research shows a 35-46% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions and a 50-60% reduction in fossil energy use due to the use of ethanol as a motor fuel. (Argonne National Lab)
    Ethanol contains 35% oxygen, making it burn more cleanly and completely than gasoline.
    E85 has the highest oxygen content of any fuel available, making it burn even more cleanly and even more completely than any other fuel.
    E85 contains 80% fewer gum-forming compounds than gasoline.
    Ethanol is highly biodegradable, making it safer for the environment.



    You are so easily manipulated by Right-Wing radio and the corporate media. Oil prices have droped b/c it's the Oil Companies best play right now to back off on raising prices 4 months prior to a national election. It's still around $4.00 a gallon nationwide anyway. Once McCain wins the election in November the oil prices are going back up, the same trend that's been happening for the past 8 years.

    Why don't you so some research instead of listening to that fat, drug-addicted draft dodger Rush Limbaugh and the right-wing cheerleaders on Faux News.[/QUOTE]

    Dont tell me what I'm manipulated by......Your forgetting the most important part of the argument....ITS MORE EXPENSIVE TO PRODUCE THAN GAS. You big windbag spouting all your wonderful info on ethanol...that is simply wrong.

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