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Thread: Yeah, Americans LOVE their healthcare

  1. #21
    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2675225]Actually, that's completely false. We rank very poorly among industrialized nations in the satisfaction rates with our healthcare system.[/quote]

    What you seem to be supporting, is the idea of "Governane by Popular Poll".

    Which is fine, I just disagree that that is a very good way of doing business.

    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2675225]That's why there is no chance of having an intelligent discussion of this issue here. Warfish's perpetual "I'm skeptical of anything that doesn't agree with my prejudices and pessimistic about anything I do agree with," is virtually impossible to engage.[/quote]

    I'm sorry you feel you cannot have an intelligent coversation with me.

    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2675225]In any other industry/business, if 80% of your customers said you need to make significant changes to your product and 40% said you need to change "fundamentally" I think you would pay attention. Not Warfish.[/quote]

    What, other than having a mouth with which to speak, qualifies these random patient samplings to have an EDUCATED and INFORMED opinion? Or is it just a random poll of randomly ignorant folks who like to tell others what they think, hence what is right (kinda like this forum matter of fact...)

    I wonder, does the business you work in operate this way? If I call up and complain, regardless of the validity of my complaint, will you change your policies on that? IS the "Customer always right" then?

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=sec.101row23;2676667]Hey moron look at the original topic. People are complaining about the quality of health care they recieve in America. [/QUOTE]

    If they think they should be able to get better health care and better health care is possible, why shouldn't we as a country work towards getting them better health care? The fact that we are better than anywhere else is completely irrelevant. The argument is about improving health care, not about whether or not the ones who are dissatisfied are taking their current health care for advantage.

  3. #23
    I'm not sure I'm getting the repblican/democrat deivde on this topic. If i was polled I'd say hell yes our system needs improvement. The billing process is very complex. Doctors inexplicably dont share information about their patients. Costs are too high.

    Does that mean I want to go to Obama's socialist government run program? Hell no. Ever been to the DMV? Imagine that as your hospital or more likely doctors office experience. In the state of ORegon they have a State run health care . Apparently they are 15 years beind on their approval of new medicined. Imagine you have cancer and are refused access to the latest drugs because your state run beurocratic health care system is behind on their approals. Who do you call?? Some beurocrat that cant do anything for you? Call your senator or congressman?? Good luck with that. I'll keep my free market choice thank you very much.

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=cr726;2676672]If I don't agree with your opinion I should leave the country.

    What makes our healthcare the best? Please stand up your opinion.[/QUOTE]

    I didnt say if you dont agree with me then leave...I said if you think its so bad then try somewhere else and see the difference. God you keep going in circles.
    We have the best Doctors in the world....the best facilities in the world..the best pharma companies doing research and development. What more do you want?? How can you say that we do not have the best quality??

    Who in your infinite wisdom has the best quality??

  5. #25
    You mean the NJ DMV which is privatized and hasn't improved at all.


    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;2676684]I'm not sure I'm getting the repblican/democrat deivde on this topic. If i was polled I'd say hell yes our system needs improvement. The billing process is very complex. Doctors inexplicably dont share information about their patients. Costs are too high.

    Does that mean I want to go to Obama's socialist government run program? Hell no. Ever been to the DMV? Imagine that as your hospital or more likely doctors office experience. In the state of ORegon they have a State run health care . Apparently they are 15 years beind on their approval of new medicined. Imagine you have cancer and are refused access to the latest drugs because your state run beurocratic health care system is behind on their approals. Who do you call?? Some beurocrat that cant do anything for you? Call your senator or congressman?? Good luck with that. I'll keep my free market choice thank you very much.[/QUOTE]

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=Sharrow;2676677]If they think they should be able to get better health care and better health care is possible, why shouldn't we as a country work towards getting them better health care? The fact that we are better than anywhere else is completely irrelevant. The argument is about improving health care, not about whether or not the ones who are dissatisfied are taking their current health care for advantage.[/QUOTE]

    The point is they ARE recieving great care and still complaining. How is.. we are better than everywhere else not relevant? If we have the best quality care here what more can we give them? Our point was that peolple dont realize how good our care is here in the U.S....and should see what it is like in other countries before they complain.

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2676674]What you seem to be supporting, is the idea of "Governane by Popular Poll".

    Which is fine, I just disagree that that is a very good way of doing business.



    I'm sorry you feel you cannot have an intelligent coversation with me.



    What, other than having a mouth with which to speak, qualifies these random patient samplings to have an EDUCATED and INFORMED opinion? Or is it just a random poll of randomly ignorant folks who like to tell others what they think, hence what is right (kinda like this forum matter of fact...)

    [B]I wonder, does the business you work in operate this way? If I call up and complain, regardless of the validity of my complaint, will you change your policies on that? IS the "Customer always right" then?[/B][/QUOTE]

    Ironically, I'm a hospital administrator. And yes, we take very seriously our surveys of patient satisfaction. Doctors often get stuck on the idea that the only thing they have been trained to deliver is a diagnostic opinion and the rest is mechanics. The truly gifted physicians have great skill not only in clinical knowledge and diagnostic skill but in their engagement of the patient -- their ability to understand and respond to a human being in distress that goes well beyond a symptom. Satisfaction surveys are targeted to specific variables of patient care that we all know lead to better outcomes -- better patient awareness of their needs, better compliance with care, a feeling that people who have treated actually care. We're in a people business.

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2676149]And your posts are spoken like a pencil pushing administrator who has never treated a patient but thinks a few courses in finance makes them an expert on medical care. You obviously have not dealt with the front lines of medicine, and don't know how unreasonable some requests or expectations are from patients. Requests for whole body scans because Aunt so and so had a tumor 20 years ago that started with similar symptoms. "Just talk to the patient and alleviate their concerns" doesn't work 100% of the time. But you wouldn't know this from just looking at spreadsheets.

    US medical training is tops in the world. Why do doctors come from all over the world to train here? Our technology and research is top notch, and while other countries may have a few institutions of world reknown, it is much more extensive here.[/QUOTE]

    I have worked as a clinician in our mental health division for over twenty years along with my administrative duties. Front lines indeed! Re the research, you are aware that without the government funding of research whether through NIH or NIMH as well as the VA system, we would not be so top notch. You didn't mention that the VA is the largest training ground for health providers, including physicians, in the country. In an earlier response you mentioned that the kid who needed the surgery and the parents earned 30K would have no problem because he would be covered by Medicaid spenddown, which is true for those under 21 and over 65 or disabled. What you seem to have missed is the irony of your response. The big bad government bailed out the private sector once again. Take away that evil Medicaid program and who would pay? The hospital? Nor do you seem interested in the fact that we pay nearly double the rate of comparable countries for our health care. Do you consider that a success story for capitalistic healthcare?

  9. #29
    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2676864]We're in a people business.[/QUOTE]

    With all due respect, I think this is the core of many businesses problems these days, worrying too much about how people FEEL and not enough about tangible results or quality of their product.

    And it isn't limited to Healthcare in any form. I see this in a wide variety of industries these days, the "focus on the customer", which often is really code for "lie to the customer to make them FEEL better, FEEL like their ignorant and uninformed viewpoint matters, while doing little to nothing to improve the quality of our product or service".

    Personally, I think it's a bad way for businesses to go. Customer Service is far better worked on on actual service, and not meaningless verbal pandering and feel-good-talk. As a consumer, I am far more impressed with someone who actually does what they say they will, in a high quality manner, than someone who fails and then tells me how much my opinions on their failure matter.

    In the simplest of terms, I don't care if the Doc I get is nice, or cares about my feelings, I care if he CURES me, and has the infrastructure available to do what must be done.

    But with that said, I have to admit, in this aspect I am seemingly NOT an "average American", as I think most now prefer the failure and talk to simple effective success.

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2676882]With all due respect, I think this is the core of many businesses problems these days, worrying too much about how people FEEL and not enough about tangible results or quality of their product.

    And it isn't limited to Healthcare in any form. I see this in a wide variety of industries these days, the "focus on the customer", which often is really code for "lie to the customer to make them FEEL better, FEEL like their ignorant and uninformed viewpoint matters, while doing little to nothing to improve the quality of our product or service".

    Personally, I think it's a bad way for businesses to go. Customer Service is far better worked on on actual service, and not meaningless verbal pandering and feel-good-talk. As a consumer, I am far more impressed with someone who actually does what they say they will, in a high quality manner, than someone who fails and then tells me how much my opinions on their failure matter.

    In the simplest of terms, I don't care if the Doc I get is nice, or cares about my feelings, I care if he CURES me, and has the infrastructure available to do what must be done.

    But with that said, I have to admit, in this aspect I am seemingly NOT an "average American", as I think most now prefer the failure and talk to simple effective success.[/QUOTE]

    The vast majority of medical conditions do not require a cutting edge Einstein to figure them out. What they do often require is someone who can follow your care in a responsible and responsive fashion. If you don't need to have the opinion of that rare world-class diagnostician, or extremely difficult surgical procedure that only a handful of surgeons could attempt, you as a patient have a choice as to where you get your care and from whom. If you have a doctor who makes you wait for an hour, sees you for five minutes, is brusque with you, and doesn't bother to return your call for clarification of a medication issue, why on earth do you want to keep going to him/her? Are you really such a passive consumer that you will accept anything you get from your medical provider and consider it good service? The issue is not about smooth talking failure vs. blunt success. That's a straw man. Unfortunately there are an awful lot of people who are intelligent on paper who become doctors and they have zero people skills. Dumb as posts in social intelligence. You don't have to settle for that.

  11. #31
    Spoken like an Administrator who doesn;t want to hear complaints, only dollar signs. More conerned with the bottom line that quality care.

    Quality of Care? Pah says LIL, any old hack can treat 99.9% of things. It's the tongue-bathing smarm of weasel-lie "customer service" that sells.

    It has nothing to do with being "passive" LIL, nor is it a strawman in any form. I judge my healthcare provider by how good he is at treating me, not how nice he is to me whilst doing so.

    Frankly, Americans could use a little less "niceness" and little more "tough love" from it's medicial community as a whole, and people like you who seem to care more about words, and less about results, are a primary cause of that particular problem.

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2677108]Spoken like an Administrator who doesn;t want to hear complaints, only dollar signs. More conerned with the bottom line that quality care.

    Quality of Care? Pah says LIL, any old hack can treat 99.9% of things. It's the tongue-bathing smarm of weasel-lie "customer service" that sells.

    It has nothing to do with being "passive" LIL, nor is it a strawman in any form. I judge my healthcare provider by how good he is at treating me, not how nice he is to me whilst doing so.

    Frankly, Americans could use a little less "niceness" and little more "tough love" from it's medicial community as a whole, and people like you who seem to care more about words, and less about results, are a primary cause of that particular problem.[/QUOTE]

    Well, I guess this is the rub in having a discussion. You want to keep your straw man that it can only be "an old hack who is nice" or a "good provider who is tough." That's so absurd it's hard to even respond. You don't think it's possible for a health provider to be both a good clinician and have people skills? The first part of your response is frankly nonsensical. It's quite the opposite of what you state. Most people who work in hospital settings have to maintain high standards of care in ALL regards. No auditor would stand for what you are suggesting, nor would most hospitals keep their doors open if they simply said -- "hey, we got you your tests, we cut you up and sewed you and you're as good as new.... what's to complain about?" Both the process and the product matter. It goes beyond the physician, by the way. Most people who are hospitalized are affected very significantly by how the nurses treat them, how the room is maintained, the quality of the food, and the responsiveness of the staff, not to mention the cleanliness of the environment. To you that is just another example of those soft, overly-demanding Americans thinking they should be treated well. I feel sorry for you that you expect so little.

  13. #33
    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2677192]You want to keep your straw man....

    so absurd it's hard to even respond.[/QUOTE]

    The irony here, is that anytime you disagree, this is your reply:

    Stawman, strawman, strawman, absurd, absurd, absurd.

    Hard as you may find it to discuss an issue with me, you are equally difficult, as ANY position you disagree with is suddenly twisted into an all-or-nothing argument built to suit your biases, and then condemened into "Strawmen" and "Absurdities".

    We disagree at the core of the validity of "polling" as a true measure of quality, and there really isn't anything else to say, nor anything to be gained, by yammering on further. Have a good day LIL.

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=sec.101row23;2676457] We have THE best medical system in the world...[/QUOTE]

    Tell that to the 47 million Americans who do not have insurance

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2676882]With all due respect, I think this is the core of many businesses problems these days, worrying too much about how people FEEL and not enough about tangible results or quality of their product.[/QUOTE]

    Completely agree with you Fish, and I'm not just saying that to soothe you.

    That being said, however, there are tangible results that say we're pretty doomed in regards to healthcare.

    We spend twice as much and have (as measured by admittedly amorphous indexing methods) either similar quality or poorer quality health-care than other countries.

    What I don't understand about the debate around health care, however, is there's a tremendous amount of polarity around the solutions. One side says "Hey, no problems here!" when that's obviously not true, and the other says "SOCIALIZE IT" as though that's the single possible solution. You know, Britain's NHS is not only horrendously expensive (although less expensive than our own), but also not necessarily very effective depending on who you talk to. Can't we figure this out?

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2677224]The irony here, is that anytime you disagree, this is your reply:

    Stawman, strawman, strawman, absurd, absurd, absurd.

    Hard as you may find it to discuss an issue with me, you are equally difficult, as ANY position you disagree with is suddenly twisted into an all-or-nothing argument built to suit your biases, and then condemened into "Strawmen" and "Absurdities".
    [B]
    We disagree at the core of the validity of "polling" as a true measure of quality, and there really isn't anything else to say, nor anything to be gained, by yammering on further.[/B] Have a good day LIL.[/QUOTE]This unfortunately is too much of a trend these days in medicine- administrators bending over backwards to appease "clients" (note I did not say "patients"), no matter how outlandish their claims or complaints, at the expense of "providers" (note I did not say "physicians", as many administrators have the attitude that LIL has, that a PA or NP can do just as well and cheaper, because "most conditions don't require an Einstein").

  17. #37
    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2677250]This unfortunately is too much of a trend these days in medicine- administrators bending over backwards to appease "clients" (note I did not say "patients"), no matter how outlandish their claims or complaints, at the expense of "providers" (note I did not say "physicians", as many administrators have the attitude that LIL has, that a PA or NP can do just as well and cheaper, because "most conditions don't require an Einstein").[/QUOTE]

    Actually, I've been wanting to get into a discussion with you about this for some time. I read your previous posts and I hear the frustration toward the apparently excessive administration doctors are faced with. Its funny, you sound exactly like I do when I talk about my past career in education. I look at medicine in a similar light in that the ideal is that expert practitioners should have the freedom to practice their craft as they see fit without the interference of a non-practitioner administrator.

    I support a single-payer system mainly because I think its unconscionable that an unaccountable company with huge overhead and lavish executive salaries may dictate care to doctors and patients. I also think it is fundamentally wrong that some working people (anyone really) is unable to seek medical care without potentially devastating financial consequences. That being said, interfering with how trained professionals do their work is anathema to me and that is certainly a risk of any new Government program.

    So what solutions, in your opinion, can improve the situation?

  18. #38
    I am happy to admit there are issues.

    Malpractice legal reform is one, for example, that burdens all of us, and makes healthcare fare more expensive than it needs to be, mostly due to frivalous lawsuits and frivalous juries (IMO) granting massive payouts on very questionale grounds.

    HMO's, as another example, ahve some amazing benefits, and some serious drawbacks. I have alot of experience with one HMO in particular, and I know all too well what they did exceedingly well, and where their faults and failures are.

    But to jump from "We have Issues, Lets Work on Them" to "Socialist Medicie, One and Only One System, Govt. Run, and Managed by Polling!" is, as I see it and in my experience, not a good way to address many of the issues, and does more to bolster Democrat voters than it does actually improve the quality of our Healthcare.

  19. #39
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2677310]I am happy to admit there are issues.

    Malpractice legal reform is one, for example, that burdens all of us, and makes healthcare fare more expensive than it needs to be, mostly due to frivalous lawsuits and frivalous juries (IMO) granting massive payouts on very questionale grounds.

    HMO's, as another example, ahve some amazing benefits, and some serious drawbacks. I have alot of experience with one HMO in particular, and I know all too well what they did exceedingly well, and where their faults and failures are.

    But to jump from "We have Issues, Lets Work on Them" to "Socialist Medicie, One and Only One System, Govt. Run, and Managed by Polling!" is, as I see it and in my experience, not a good way to address many of the issues, and does more to bolster Democrat voters than it does actually improve the quality of our Healthcare.[/QUOTE]

    I hear it, but it seems like the main issue we face is the high cost per capita of the system and the insurance system has tremendously high costs (especially compared with the rest of the world) and provides no actual care. Other than eliminating the insurance system, what can be done to significantly reduce costs?

    Some reform of malpractice is called for, particurly for OB/GYN's, but the costs there don't approach that of insurance. And, not for nothing, but the ability to have claims heard in Civil Court is a pretty strong imperative in our system historically.

  20. #40
    I have several thoughts on this. I looked up the survey.

    The question was asked: “Which of the following statements comes closest to expressing your overall view of the healthcare system in this country?” 50% answered “There are some good things in our health care system, but fundamental changes are needed to make it work better.” That’s not the most encouraging but it’s not abject dissatisfaction either.

    32% said “Our health care system has so much wrong with it that we need to completely rebuild it.” 16% said “On the whole, the system works pretty well and only minor changes are necessary to make it work better.” It looks to me that 66% answered somewhere between - the system is okay but needs improvement and the system works well. And only 32% answered that it completely sucks.

    Also 96% said they were in fair to excellent health. 4% said they had poor health. 89% said they’d seen four doctors or less in the past two years where 10% said they’d seen more. It doesn’t look like most of these people have received anything much more than primary care (and if they had more serious medical issues in the past they don’t seem to be hurting too bad now). We can’t really be sure how the people in poor health or those who had need to see multiple doctors recently answered the first question either. But all I can do is guess, I have no idea what level of healthcare these people received or what their specific issues are based on this survey. The point being that generalizing unspecific findings like these to support the proposal of massive changes to the system isn’t likely to solve the real problems efficiently or avoid all new ones. Personally, I’m dissatisfied too and want some major changes, but I’d rather see massive deregulation of the system rather than more government interference.

    I found another study which showed that people’s overall perception of healthcare in the country doesn’t necessarily match their perception of the healthcare they personally receive.
    [QUOTE]•Most Americans are not satisfied with the nation’s health care system. At the root of this dissatisfaction: its price tag.
    •An overwhelming 80 percent of the public is dissatisfied with the total cost of care in the nation, including six in ten (58 percent) who are very dissatisfied with costs.
    •Slightly more than half --54 percent --are dissatisfied with the quality of care in the nation.
    •At the same time, most people are satisfied with their own health insurance coverage (88 percent of the insured rate their coverage as excellent or good) and with various aspects of their medical care (for example, 89 percent are satisfied with the quality of care they receive.) Even in the personal realm, costs are the area of least satisfaction, with four in ten saying they are very (19 percent) or somewhat (22 percent) dissatisfied with their own healthcare costs.[/QUOTE]
    [IMG]http://bp3.blogger.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/Ro9yq_3DQCI/AAAAAAAABzQ/O443d7OPV0g/s400/medsurvey.bmp[/IMG]
    [URL="http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/upload/7572.pdf"]http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/upload/7572.pdf[/URL]

    What I’d like to see is a survey set up to find out people’s perceptions of the care they’ve received sorted by the various levels of care they’ve received with a focus on which specific areas needing improvement. Then examine various statistics of each of those areas in different countries to find out who does what better.

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