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Thread: fundementals of the economy

  1. #1

    fundementals of the economy

    “My opponents may disagree, but those fundamentals – the American worker, the innovation, the entrepreneurship, the small business – are the fundamentals of America and I think they are strong,”

    - John McCain 9/15/2008


    ***

    “I could walk from here to Lansing and I wouldn’t run into a single person who thought our economy was doing well, unless I ran into John McCain”
    - Joe Biden 9/15/2008

    ***


    The American worker, and the spirit of small business, these are not economic fundamentals.

    If he really believes that definition - then John McCain doesn't know what economic fundamentals are...

    unemployment, supply, demand, inflation, GDP, consumer confidence, these are just a few of many STATISTICAL definitions of fundamentals.

    I don't believe McCain to be a fool but the way he puts words out there, they are misleading. One can point at these things as reasons why America is great but they are not economic fundamentals.

    but the truth is I don't need to start a thread to tell people what's obvious. when 3 of the 6 largest investment banks in the world, all American, fail at once, the fundamentals of the American economy are NOT strong.
    Last edited by bitonti; 09-15-2008 at 11:19 PM.

  2. #2
    I think it shows great leadership by the Democrats to encourage the American people to put their money under their matresses.

    After listening to Obama and other Democrats yesterday I took my money out of the bank and bought a truck load of canned goods and shot gun shells.

    This is the party of we have nothing to fear? FDR would be so proud.

  3. #3
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;2754036]I think it shows great leadership by the Democrats to encourage the American people to put their money under their matresses.

    After listening to Obama and other Democrats yesterday I took my money out of the bank and bought a truck load of canned goods and shot gun shells.

    This is the party of we have nothing to fear? FDR would be so proud.[/QUOTE]

    that's funny because mcsame flip flopped on his 'the fundamentals are strong' comments about an hour after he made them

    [quote]
    By the time the Republican nominee had made the short flight to Orlando for a town hall meeting, his campaign had e-mailed reporters new remarks he would deliver. They seemed a 180-degree turn. If McCain's earlier comments had seemed designed to reassure, his new ones were dire. "The American economy is in a crisis -- in a crisis," he repeated.
    [/quote]

  4. #4
    As opposed to the empty rhetoric and fear mongering of Saint Obamaunist on the stump Bit? The same Obamunist who was the second leading recipient of Fanne and Freddie contributions form the (mostly Dem) Washingtopn Insiders who ran those firms till they collapsed, and happily for Obamunists, were all but nationalized?

    Yes sir, shame on ol' McLame for expressing support in American Strength. Better he fear monger like Obamaunist and ensure the economy finishes the collapse the Dems have hoped for all along and certainly did nothing the past two years to stop.

    Oh, right, I forgot "It's all Bush's Fault Because He's In Office, and Nothing Anyone Says Will Convince Bitonti Otherwise, Because Only Oner Person Can Ever Be Blamed For anything and It Must Be Bush (tm)".

  5. #5
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2754098]Yes sir, shame on ol' McLame for expressing support in American Strength. [/QUOTE]


    the point of this thread isn't that Mccain is a patriot and Obama it's a traitor

    it's about the use of the word fundamentals (which I misspelled in thread title by the way)

    one can say "America is still strong" and be accurate. I have no problems with being positive.

    But to say "the fundamentals of the American economy are strong" and then to further define these "fundamentals" as the worker spirit and other such platititudes is misleading at best, ignorant at worst. Anyone who's taken a class in economics knows that fundamentals are not defined any way you want. There are very real measurable statistics that are considered fundamentals.

    This isn't a 1 time gaffe either, McCain has said this statement that the fundamentals of the economy are strong more than 20 times in stump speeches since Jan 1 2008 - and he said it again yesterday !

    Again my point isn't that Mccain is terrible and Obama is great - or that this mess is anyone's fault - I have made these points but in this thread I am trying to keep it non partisan and say it's the question who best to lead the economy? Who understands the economy better? Objectively, a person who says fundamentals are strong when they clearly aren't is an economic novice, regardless of party affliation.

  6. #6
    [QUOTE=bitonti;2754118]the point of this thread isn't that Mccain is a patriot and Obama it's a traitor

    it's about the use of the word fundamentals (which I misspelled in thread title by the way)

    one can say "America is still strong" and be accurate. I have no problems with being positive.

    But to say "the fundamentals of the American economy are strong" and then to further define these "fundamentals" as the worker spirit and other such platititudes is misleading at best, ignorant at worst. Anyone who's taken a class in economics knows that fundamentals are not defined any way you want. There are very real measurable statistics that are considered fundamentals. They should also open themselves up to questions about how deep the current problems are and how concerned they are and what they would do today to mitigate the problems.

    This isn't a 1 time gaffe either, McCain has said this statement that the fundamentals of the economy are strong more than 20 times in stump speeches since Jan 1 2008 - and he said it again yesterday !

    Again my point isn't that Mccain is terrible and Obama is great - or that this mess is anyone's fault - I have made these points but in this thread I am trying to keep it non partisan and say it's the question who best to lead the economy? Who understands the economy better? Objectively, a person who says fundamentals are strong when they clearly aren't is an economic novice, regardless of party affliation.[/QUOTE]

    Actually it's not about fundementals it's about you bashing McCain and praising Obama for pointing out that our economy isn't great at the moment. Bye the way that may have nothing to do with the fundementals of the economy which is pure conjecture on both sides.

    If Obama had any spine or leadership qualities, he would have done what the Bush administration did all weekend, work 24/7 to try and mitigate a dissaster. Instead they are chearleading for a dissaster for political purposes.

    Why not have a press confrence with his entire economic team and talk about what specifically they feel are the fundemental issues with the economy, their view of the role of the Federal government, and the specific policies they want to put in place and what exactly they feel those policies will do to improve the fundementals.

    There is a distinct difference between being a leader and being an opportunist. Obama and in many ways McCain fail into the later group when it comes to dealing with the current economic issues.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 09-16-2008 at 10:12 AM.

  7. #7
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;2754136] Bye the way that may have nothing to do with the fundementals of the economy which is pure conjecture on both sides.
    [/QUOTE]

    this is exactly my point

    fundamentals are not a touchy feely concept!!!

    they are statisically measurable - they are NOT conjecture. the numbers come out every day, every month. Companies have fundamentals, countries have fundamentals.


    prices
    currency valuation
    inflation
    unemployment
    trade deficit
    consumer confidence
    factory ordered goods
    gross domestic product

    etc.

    these are numbers! they are not theories or feel good stories about hard working people.

    For Mccain to say time and time again the numbers are good the numbers are strong (because FUNDAMENTALS are the NUMBERS) is misleading!

  8. #8
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;2754136]If Obama had any spine or leadership qualities, he would have done what the Bush administration did all weekend, work 24/7 to try and mitigate a dissaster. [/QUOTE]

    and what a great job they did with that ... I drank in the Giants Stadium parking lot all sunday morning and did more for the economy than Paulson did.

    trying hard doesn't mean squat. results matter.

  9. #9
    [QUOTE=bitonti;2754184]and what a great job they did with that ... I drank in the Giants Stadium parking lot all sunday morning and did more for the economy than Paulson did.

    trying hard doesn't mean squat. results matter.[/QUOTE]

    Explain to me the "fundemental" problems with the economy of markets going down with a society were both the individuals and the government over burdened with debt? The markets are doing exactly what they should be doing, contracting until the excess debt is shakin out of the system.

  10. #10
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;2754213]Explain to me the "fundemental" problems with the economy of markets going down with a society were both the individuals and the government over burdened with debt? The markets are doing exactly what they should be doing, contracting until the excess debt is shakin out of the system.[/QUOTE]


    this might get the debt out of the markets but the government debt persists - and actually grows, every day. why are the fundamentals not good? in a few words:

    rising commodity prices
    rising foreclosures
    rising bancrupcy
    flat wages
    rising inflation
    lowering value of US Dollar
    banking institutions collapse
    rising unemployment

    etc.

  11. #11
    [QUOTE=bitonti;2754250]this might get the debt out of the markets but the government debt persists - and actually grows, every day. why are the fundamentals not good? in a few words:

    rising commodity prices
    rising foreclosures
    rising bancrupcy
    flat wages
    rising inflation
    lowering value of US Dollar
    banking institutions collapse
    rising unemployment

    etc.[/QUOTE]

    Have you actually looked at what commodities and the dollar are doing? We are in danger of deflation right now.

  12. #12
    [QUOTE=bitonti;2754250]this might get the debt out of the markets but the government debt persists - and actually grows, every day. why are the fundamentals not good? in a few words:

    rising commodity prices
    rising foreclosures
    rising bancrupcy
    flat wages
    rising inflation
    lowering value of US Dollar
    banking institutions collapse
    rising unemployment

    etc.[/QUOTE]

    And what has Obama and his Democrat Controlled Congress friends done about it?

    Collect Fannie and Freddie Donation whilst laughing with their Democrat-loyal management as the collapse came down?

    Enjoy the idea of yet another Nationalized Industry?

    Enjoy the idea that they caused it, via their economicly infeasable "housing is a right" ideals, which propelled untenable loans to untenable applicants, with the Govt. ready able and willing to take the hit, knowing that bailout and nationalizion was the fianl endgame afterwards?

    Sat on their asses watching the economy crumble for two years now, doing nothing for the sole reason that they KNOW that a crap economy leading into the election all but guarantees a Democrat Vicotry, since the War Issue didn't work out the way they'd hoped (damn working "surge").

    So where are all the calls of conspiracy and profit taking now? Where are all the calls for Investigations? Special hearing? Jail Terms for inept, incompetant or corrupt managers of these firms, and of Fannie and Freddie? Is losing billions, political corruptions and the ruination of millions of lives only important when you can blame a Republican for it?

    Forgive me Bit, but you're about as unbiased and objective as I am. Which is to say, not. Your inabillity to see how the socialist policies of "housinmg as a right" helped propel the collapse we now face, and your failure to see the Democrats hands 9and their friends running Fannie and Freddie) as part of the problem pegs you for what you are.

    [IMG]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:mSjIPJ_Sx-AJ::goatmilk.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/darth-vader-face1.jpg[/IMG]

    Your are part of the Obamunist Alliance, and a Traitor! Take him away!;)
    Last edited by Warfish; 09-16-2008 at 11:43 AM.

  13. #13
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    Debating economics with conservatives is like debating football with Patsfantx, only the Pats are good and the Bush/McCain economy blows.

  14. #14
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2754289]
    Enjoy the idea that they caused it, via their economicly infeasable "housing is a right" ideals, which propelled untenable loans to untenable applicants, with the Govt. ready able and willing to take the hit, knowing that bailout and nationalizion was the fianl endgame afterwards?[/quote]

    unlike you Im not trying to assign blame in this thread

    my point of this thread is to talk about the candidates and their understanding of basic economics.

  15. #15
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    Some great replies from the Whackos on this thread. Statement: "McCain believes the economy is fundamentally sound and then flip flopped," Reply: "Obama is less patriotic than McCain!" Statement: "That really has nothing to do with this thread..." Reply: "Obama has no idea what he's talking about!"

    Brilliant argumentative techniques guys :cool:

  16. #16
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;2754254]Have you actually looked at what commodities and the dollar are doing? We are in danger of deflation right now.[/QUOTE]

    yes i have - 6 weeks of gains do not offset 6 years of losses

    you asked specifically what fundamentals were bad i gave you my perspective

    Mccain gave his perspective, saying it was strong, then defining the fundamentals as basically the American work ethic, then an hour later he reverses course and says it's a crisis.

  17. #17
    [QUOTE=bitonti;2754302]unlike you Im not trying to assign blame in this thread [/QUOTE]

    Of course not, as you've already assigned blame.

    "ABB, Always Blame Bush" - Bitonti

    So now that your brilliant "All Bush's Fault" Theory has been so deeply explained and discussed, you've moved on to your next great Economic Theory.....The "McCain is Old and Dumb" Theory.

    People wonder why the Economy is going to hell? It's pretty simple, the two Political Parties have sold out any last shread of decentcy, honour, integrity and honesty, and simply do whatever it takes to ensure they prosper and remain in power, and the people of this country be damned.

  18. #18
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2754289]And what has Obama and his Democrat Controlled Congress friends done about it?

    Collect Fannie and Freddie Donation whilst laughing with their Democrat-loyal management as the collapse came down?

    Enjoy the idea of yet another Nationalized Industry?

    [B]Enjoy the idea that they caused it, via their economicly infeasable "housing is a right" ideals, which propelled untenable loans to untenable applicants, with the Govt. ready able and willing to take the hit, knowing that bailout and nationalizion was the fianl endgame afterwards?[/B]

    Sat on their asses watching the economy crumble for two years now, doing nothing for the sole reason that they KNOW that a crap economy leading into the election all but guarantees a Democrat Vicotry, since the War Issue didn't work out the way they'd hoped (damn working "surge").

    So where are all the calls of conspiracy and profit taking now? Where are all the calls for Investigations? Special hearing? Jail Terms for inept, incompetant or corrupt managers of these firms, and of Fannie and Freddie? Is losing billions, political corruptions and the ruination of millions of lives only important when you can blame a Republican for it?

    Forgive me Bit, but you're about as unbiased and objective as I am. Which is to say, not. Your inabillity to see how the socialist policies of "housinmg as a right" helped propel the collapse we now face, and your failure to see the Democrats hands 9and their friends running Fannie and Freddie) as part of the problem pegs you for what you are.

    [IMG]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:mSjIPJ_Sx-AJ::goatmilk.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/darth-vader-face1.jpg[/IMG]

    Your are part of the Obamunist Alliance, and a Traitor! Take him away!;)[/QUOTE]

    Come on, Warfish, this stupidity has to stop. CRA's were around since 1977. They were government insured. And they were significantly taken out of the equation in 2004. It just plain bogus to try this debunked tactic to wiggle around the fact that deregulation is the major culprit (whether you want to blame Democrats, Republicans, or lobbyists), which unleashed mortgage companies to engage in high-risk practices because they counted on profits from a rising housing market. If anybody really believes that it was the big bad HUD forcing mortgage brokers to do business, they might as well climb back in their crib and suck harder on their pacifier. That dog won't hunt.

  19. #19
    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2754356]deregulation is the major culprit [/QUOTE]

    It's funny how often a Lib claims that all problems would be fine, if Only the Government Ran Everything and Made Every Decision, i.e. the Dems ideal of Regulation.

    Under Regulation is bad, I agree. I wonder when you'll agree that Nationalization and Govt. Control over Everything is equally bad. Like so many issues, no one on either side wants a logical moderate happy medium, only extremism.

    And yes, it is A culprit, used and abused by both sides. Which is why we stand where we are today, sold out by our political leadership for insider profits and greed and socialist ideology that flies in the face of economic reality.

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2754366]It's funny how often a Lib claims that all problems would be fine, if Only the Government Ran Everything and Made Every Decision, i.e. the Dems ideal of Regulation.

    Under Regulation is bad, I agree. I wonder when you'll agree that Nationalization and Govt. Control over Everything is equally bad. Like so many issues, no one on either side wants a logical moderate happy medium, only extremism.

    And yes, it is A culprit, used and abused by both sides. Which is why we stand where we are today, sold out by our political leadership for insider profits and greed and socialist ideology that flies in the face of economic reality.[/QUOTE]

    You know, it would be alot easier if you just admitted you were wrong, rather than doing the usual spin-doctoring that you are so famous for. Calling me a "lib" doesn't make you less wrong. Trying the all-or-nothing "you want regulation of everything" approach won't make you less wrong. And adding the illogical word "socialist" to "profits and greed" won't make you less wrong.

    P.S. I was very clear in NOT attributing blame to a party, but you blithely ignored that and went on a name-calling tantrum. And I'm talking about this particular case where regulation served a good purpose, not making the case for regulation of the world. You've really got to do better than this nonsense. :rolleyes:

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