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Thread: Trickle Down? Or Trickle Up? Which Economic Model is Better?

  1. #41
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2804751]No disagreement here.

    But all a Board has to do is say "this guy is worth it, and we're doing it".

    Worse, the disclosure documentation wouldn't likely be available till AFTER the guy in question was already hired.

    Third, if you impose any mandatory research/waiting period, companies who don't do it, don't qualify to have to do it, etc. will be at an advantage against publicly held companies. and yes, investors would scream about that too.

    Trouble with transparacy Nuu, is it's only truly useful after the fact, when nothing can be done.[/QUOTE]

    Pay packages have been challenged via lawsuits, although I can't recall how many have actually been overturned. I do remember Hollinger, the newspaper publisher, suing the pants off of Conrad Black and his cronies for blowing corporate cash on lavish parties and travel and whatnot. Same with Tyco and Kozlowski. But that was basically criminal conduct and they actually went to jail.

    Most of these cases are less clear cut.

  2. #42
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    [QUOTE=Polidore22;2804571]It's amazing how some people's attitude suggests that rich people are lucky and should be punished for having so much money. I'm not sure which of these systems works, but let's keep in mind that wealth has at least a little bit to do with hard work.[/QUOTE]

    Polidore22,

    You are absolutely correct but you would have to agree that some of the wealthy are the product of genetic dice and not hard work.

    But I digress, we are capitalists... and we all agree that hard work, risk-taking and success should be rewarded. So, after the rewards of success, how about paying your fair share of taxes?

  3. #43
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    A little from Column A, a little from Column B.

  4. #44
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    [quote=dcJet;2804788]Polidore22,

    You are absolutely correct but you would have to agree that some of the wealthy are the product of genetic dice and not hard work.

    But I digress, we are capitalists... and we all agree that hard work, risk-taking and success should be rewarded. So, after the rewards of success, how about paying your fair share of taxes?[/quote]

    How many times must it be stated-The rich, even with all their shelters & loopholes still pay far more federal income tax than everyone else. The top 1% pay 39%, the top 25% pay 86%,
    the lower 1/2 of earners pay 3% or less

    Speaking of fairness, why don't illegal aliens from all corners of the world who
    come here to rip off billions more in American govt funded benefits than their un-/semi-skilled labor can ever hope to match,
    not send most of whatever cash they can scrounge up out of this country in
    remittances abroad ($36 Bn to Mexico alone) and pay their fair share of taxes 1st. For Xssake, we dont even get an IOU or a thanks, just outstretched mitts begging for more

  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet;2804826]How many times must it be stated-The rich, even with all their shelters & loopholes still pay far more federal income tax than everyone else. The top 1% pay 39%, the top 25% pay 86%,
    the lower 1/2 of earners pay 3% or less

    Speaking of fairness, why don't illegal aliens from all corners of the world who
    come here to rip off billions more in American govt funded benefits than their un-/semi-skilled labor can ever hope to match,
    not send most of whatever cash they can scrounge up out of this country in
    remittances abroad ($36 Bn to Mexico alone) and pay their fair share of taxes 1st. For Xssake, we dont even get an IOU or a thanks, just outstretched mitts begging for more[/QUOTE]

    Your facts in the first paragraph are correct.

    And yes, while illegals are a serious drain on our money, I criticize them less because they do what they do out of desperation, not greed. Furthermore, even if mass amnesty tomorrow was signed into law tomorrow, the newly legal immigrants undoubtedly would not be making enough to "pitch in" in an real dollar amount. They simply will not get high paying jobs.

    If we need money, we raise taxes on the rich. That is the only logical/realistic solution. We're fighting two wars and we expect the rich to suck it up and accept that.

  6. #46
    flushingjet
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    [quote=MachineGunFunk;2804860]Your facts in the first paragraph are correct.

    And yes, while illegals are a serious drain on our money, I criticize them less because they do what they do out of desperation, not greed. Furthermore, even if mass amnesty tomorrow was signed into law tomorrow, the newly legal immigrants undoubtedly would not be making enough to "pitch in" in an real dollar amount. They simply will not get high paying jobs.

    If we need money, we raise taxes on the rich. That is the only logical/realistic solution. We're fighting two wars and we expect the rich to suck it up and accept that.[/quote]

    Some are desperate, but many more are playing/gaming the system.

    That is how illegals get home loans and related home equity loans, drivers licenses, and all kinds of undeserved freebies on raxpayer dollars.

    That is an idea there, we can send them striaght to the front lines to fight in the ME. They dont mind jumping the line on legal immigrants, the native American impoverished, and elderly Americans so they shouldnt mind that.

  7. #47
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet;2804895]Some are desperate, but many more are playing/gaming the system.

    That is how illegals get home loans and related home equity loans, drivers licenses, and all kinds of undeserved freebies on raxpayer dollars.

    That is an idea there, we can send them striaght to the front lines to fight in the ME. They dont mind jumping the line on legal immigrants, the native American impoverished, and elderly Americans so they shouldnt mind that.[/QUOTE]

    Clearly there is a middle ground here with immigration. We need border security more than anything else, but to the ones already here, we need to provide some type of path to citizenship. I think it's fair to say that my idealism about their intentions, i.e. the desperation of impoverished individuals, and your cynicism, i.e. everyone's just comin' here for a free lunch, are both wrong.

    And there actually is a precedent for what your speaking about regarding sending immigrants off to fight our wars, I.E. the Irish in the Civil War. There were all Irish brigades in the Union army fighting in Antietam and on the march with Sherman through the south. Perhaps those willing to serve can instantly be granted citizenship, be taught English and have their immediate family live in America without governmental interference?

    But I notice you did not offer up any response to this part of my post:

    [QUOTE]If we need money, we raise taxes on the rich. That is the only logical/realistic solution. We're fighting two wars and we expect the rich to suck it up and accept that.[/QUOTE]

    As a conservative, what do you think of that?
    Last edited by MachineGunFunk; 10-14-2008 at 07:27 PM.

  8. #48
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    it doesn't matter although i think it's far easier to get a meaningful benefit out of trickle down than trickle up and that's because the the people on the top are way more interested in staying on top thn the people on the bottom in moving up. and trickle down is not charity as many of the tx plans are.

    one thing i was thinking just the other day. with regard to taxes a flat tax has been talked about for wel over 25 years. there has also been talk of value added type taxes. well in a very real sense we already have value added taxes in the form of corporate taxes. corporations pay for taxes by rainsing prices to consumers. consumers have the option of buying company A's product or company B's. the consumer also has the option of buying neither. therefore, corporate taxes are not only value added but optional, at least from the standpoint of the consumer. without consumers, corporations pay no taxes.

    another thought is why would a corporation have profits/or taxable income anyway? they wouldn't because there are always ways to grow. they can acquire assets, they can add capital equipment, they can spend money on a whole host of things to improve there ability to compete in the market place. this is where the trickle down works out. if the corporations are making money they are expanding. they are adding workers and providing wages.

    what i beleive is the biggest problem is the decline in the ratio between the public and private work forces. if i am not mistaken, i believe that 40% of the workers in this country work for the federal, state or local governments. think about this. there are actually only 1.5 private workers paying all of the salaries and benefits of all of the government workers. this is a huge problem and it is no wonder why things are on the verge of imploding. and the worst thing is that the government workers are pretty well set. they have guaranteed raises and benefits. the private workers can have pay raises but they can also have pay decreases.

    finally, one thing to be very wary of with any type of tax. it must be visible, that is the effect of the tax must be readily viewable by the people affected. your income tax is viewable. you get to see all of mechanations when you figure them out. a vat is invisible. you wouldn't necessarily see it and it would be much easier for the government to raise the tax rates without anyone's knowledge.

  9. #49
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet;2804826]How many times must it be stated-The rich, even with all their shelters & loopholes still pay far more federal income tax than everyone else. The top 1% pay 39%, the top 25% pay 86%,
    the lower 1/2 of earners pay 3% or less [/QUOTE]

    And how many times "must it be stated" that the reason the top 25% pays 86% of all taxes is [SIZE="4"]because they have 86% of all the money?[/SIZE]

  10. #50
    flushingjet
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    [quote=PlumberKhan;2805389]And how many times "must it be stated" that the reason the top 25% pays 86% of all taxes is [SIZE=4]because they have 86% of all the money?[/SIZE][/quote]

    And exactly why is that bad? You're not jealous, are you?

    If that was all old money constantly recycled in the hands of a few oligarchical families that control local businesses, say like in William
    Ayers' case, or Aruba, that would make sense.

    There would be a caste system of people
    dependent on the ruling class' whims for jobs or
    subsistence with little or no social mobility.

    When we have people like Bill Gates and Oprah Winfrey,
    and entrepreneurs coming from little or nothing to making
    millions & billions in our society that argument doesnt apply

    Now if you dont understand why lower taxes for all means more tax revenues
    and more jobs I cant help you

    If you dont understand why the un-charitable/forced handover of tax dollars from the successful to the less successful is a theft, and a crime / sin
    I can't help you

    With BO, Taxes will surely go up and there will be more PK-type bartering/laundering/income sheltering on the local business level, and
    no incentive to hire / expand operations at the corporate level

  11. #51
    flushingjet
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    [quote=MachineGunFunk;2804914]Clearly there is a middle ground here with immigration. We need border security more than anything else, but to the ones already here, we need to provide some type of path to citizenship. I think it's fair to say that my idealism about their intentions, i.e. the desperation of impoverished individuals, and your cynicism, i.e. everyone's just comin' here for a free lunch, are both wrong.

    And there actually is a precedent for what your speaking about regarding sending immigrants off to fight our wars, I.E. the Irish in the Civil War. There were all Irish brigades in the Union army fighting in Antietam and on the march with Sherman through the south. Perhaps those willing to serve can instantly be granted citizenship, be taught English and have their immediate family live in America without governmental interference?

    But I notice you did not offer up any response to this part of my post:



    As a conservative, what do you think of that?[/quote]

    Everyone of us pays plenty now, in fact, at the local level, state, sales property and miscellaneous taxes in some states are crippling.
    House values have dropped yet assessments and taxes have not.

    Raising taxes disincents enterprise and slows other business activity (ie transfers and creation of capital assets)

    As for illegals, I know the issue very, very, very well, no one needs to tell me. There are cases of illegals/non-citizens going into the US armed forces and serving honorably so they should all get an exception. They should have not been allowed in the 1st place, but once theyre in, theyre in.
    And thats pretty much how its gonna go for illegals in general. The bad ones may get the boot but the
    vast majority will either melt into the general populace or leave voluntarily.

    My #1 concern today is that my adopted neighborhood in the NY area is under siege, there are many instances of people warehousing illegals and illegals milking the system dry

    My "neighbor" from Peru directly across the street is trying to live the American dream on the backs of others and has been busted many times already for various and sundry violations.

    Although we are still generally safe in the 'hood, there is increased Gang / Drug Activity and Sex Offenders (We know this from the Police Blotter and City mailings) no doubt facilitated by the lax checking of Criminals who jet back and forth bween their home countries and the US. Diseases that were eradicated like TB are making a comeback as well

    I know of 1 illegal story personally, someone paid a coyote 10K each
    to get her and her husband out of Mexico and they have to pay them back under duress, like someone would a loan shark. Shes a nice lady, but I would rather she had waited in line and became naturalized like my ancestors did.

    She is a nanny, not for me, so she does perform a service, albeit one which requires little educational skill. She also has a heart problem so guess who helped picked up the tab for her Angioplasty (Not BC / BS but FJ!)

    And no for the last time I "R" not prejudiced. Our family has intermarried
    and fully integrated, in some cases decades before other Euro-Anglos so no lib lectures please.

    Id be perfectly fine with a payment in exchange for citizenship, but it must be at least $10K. Id prefer $25K-$50K payable per person over 20 years.
    Last edited by flushingjet; 10-15-2008 at 10:03 AM.

  12. #52
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    [QUOTE=MachineGunFunk;2804860]If we need money, we raise taxes on the rich. That is the only logical/realistic solution. We're fighting two wars and we expect the rich to suck it up and accept that.[/QUOTE]

    It's fine if you feel that way, but don't also complain that it's not "their" kids going off to war it's "ours". (I am not saying you have, or that to complain about it is inherrantly wrong, just that people can't have it both ways.)

  13. #53
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet;2805454]And exactly why is that bad? You're not jealous, are you?[/QUOTE]

    I never said it was bad. Pay attention, man.

    You say they pay 86% of taxes...I said which is because they have 86% of all the money. Jeez...it's pretty simple math.

  14. #54
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    [QUOTE=Postseason;2805552]It's fine if you feel that way, but don't also complain that it's not "their" kids going off to war it's "ours". (I am not saying you have, or that to complain about it is inherrantly wrong, just that people can't have it both ways.)[/QUOTE]

    Hey that's fine with me, I won't b*tch about who serves so long as there is no b*tching about having taxes raised during war time.

  15. #55
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet;2805483][B]Everyone of us pays plenty now, in fact, at the local level, state, sales property and miscellaneous taxes in some states are crippling.
    House values have dropped yet assessments and taxes have not.

    Raising taxes disincents enterprise and slows other business activity (ie transfers and creation of capital assets)[/B][/QUOTE]

    If you live in the tri-state area, then yes, we're clearly paying a ridiculous amount of taxes here and in all likelihood you are paying your fair share.

    And you're obviously right, higher taxes do stifle business. Nobody in their right mind will dispute that.

    But I think you can agree that if there is any time when the public should be able to accept higher taxes, it's during a war time.
    [QUOTE]
    As for illegals, I know the issue very, very, very well, no one needs to tell me. There are cases of illegals/non-citizens going into the US armed forces and serving honorably so they should all get an exception. They should have not been allowed in the 1st place, but once theyre in, theyre in.
    And thats pretty much how its gonna go for illegals in general. The bad ones may get the boot but the
    vast majority will either melt into the general populace or leave voluntarily.

    My #1 concern today is that my adopted neighborhood in the NY area is under siege, there are many instances of people warehousing illegals and illegals milking the system dry

    My "neighbor" from Peru directly across the street is trying to live the American dream on the backs of others and has been busted many times already for various and sundry violations.

    Although we are still generally safe in the 'hood, there is increased Gang / Drug Activity and Sex Offenders (We know this from the Police Blotter and City mailings) no doubt facilitated by the lax checking of Criminals who jet back and forth bween their home countries and the US. Diseases that were eradicated like TB are making a comeback as well

    I know of 1 illegal story personally, someone paid a coyote 10K each
    to get her and her husband out of Mexico and they have to pay them back under duress, like someone would a loan shark. Shes a nice lady, but I would rather she had waited in line and became naturalized like my ancestors did.

    She is a nanny, not for me, so she does perform a service, albeit one which requires little educational skill. She also has a heart problem so guess who helped picked up the tab for her Angioplasty (Not BC / BS but FJ!)

    And no for the last time I "R" not prejudiced. Our family has intermarried
    and fully integrated, in some cases decades before other Euro-Anglos so no lib lectures please.

    Id be perfectly fine with a payment in exchange for citizenship, but it must be at least $10K. Id prefer $25K-$50K payable per person over 20 years.[/QUOTE]

    For the most part we agree on this. My issue is; what do you do now? And the most logical solution remains border integrity. That is more important than any amnesty/'throw 'em out' talk.

  16. #56
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet;2805483]

    Id be perfectly fine with a payment in exchange for citizenship, but it must be at least $10K. Id prefer $25K-$50K payable per person over 20 years.[/QUOTE]

    yeah and while we are at it how about 10k for every Iraqi still alive and living in a democratic society?

    everyone complains about domestic mismanagement but no one questions foreign mismanagement.

    in other words - How is employing an illegal who sends money back home any different than blind foreign aid? John McCain talks about cutting 700 Billion from countries that don't like us... talk about empty campaign promises - the US Gov't gives money away at the national level that's ok but someone works and sends that money home to wherever that's an outrage.

    chalk it up to the pursuit of the American dream and move on. Building a wall is ludicrous.

  17. #57
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    [QUOTE=dcJet;2804338]This is an interesting point and the trickle down tax strategy has had a big hand in the rich getting richer.

    On the other hand, the poor getting poorer IMO, was driven by the shift in government policies over the last 8 years of Bush/Cheney to make the corporations more powerful.

    Excessive corporate tax cuts, huge bonuses for CEOs, free trade agreements and incentives for mergers has created a situation where the large corporations have more power than ever before in our lifetimes.

    [B]These policies have allowed the corporations free reign to outsource many jobs to reduce labor costs thereby drastically reducing the wealth of the middle class and further concentrating the wealth in the hands of the few.[/B][/QUOTE]
    Really? So what responsibility does the average Joe have in that? Certainly they go to wall mart in masses. They seem to like "outsourcing" production when it results in cheaper prices.

    We have the chance to vote with our dollar everyday, and every day we patronize places like WalMart and fill up our SUV's while complaining about the price of gasoline. What responsibility to the consumer have with any of this?

  18. #58
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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2804623][B]I think transparency ought to be the best weapon here. A company ought to have to disclose why it thinks Joe CEO deserves that golden parachute or huge bonus. It ought to have to demonstrate similar pay given by peer companies or prove that higher compensation was the result of a bidding war or an attempt to preempt a likely bidding war.
    [/B]
    Beyond better disclosure rules and better standards to govern corporate comp, I agree that it's not really a legal matter, but a civil one. The shareholders --whose money is being given away, after all-- ought to be empowered to sue the crap out of companies that fail to meet these basic standards.

    That's the language these boards understand.[/QUOTE]

    Never work. Seen it happen with hiring H1's. Companies just fudge the job requirements and market.

    As someone else says this is the free market at work. I think disclosure is important, and probably overseeing boards, who are the root of a lot of these problems imo..

  19. #59
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    [QUOTE=flushingjet;2804895]Some are desperate, but many more are playing/gaming the system.

    That is how illegals get home loans and related home equity loans, drivers licenses, and all kinds of undeserved freebies on raxpayer dollars.

    That is an idea there, we can send them striaght to the front lines to fight in the ME. They dont mind jumping the line on legal immigrants, the native American impoverished, and elderly Americans so they shouldnt mind that.[/QUOTE]

    Actually I love it.

    Want amnesty? Get your ass over to Afghanistan and find Bin Laden. Never happen, but it makes sense to me.

  20. #60
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    [IMG]http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2006/09/05/ford-bill-cp-9382638.jpg[/IMG]

    Hell yea! CEO Bill Ford of the "Ford Motor Corp" agrees with you!!!!


    [QUOTE=Polidore22;2804571]It's amazing how some people's attitude suggests that rich people are lucky and should be punished for having so much money. I'm not sure which of these systems works, but let's keep in mind that wealth has at least a little bit to do with hard work.[/QUOTE]

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