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Thread: "Joe and the Question" - A Warfish Manifesto (tm)

  1. #1
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    "Joe and the Question" - A Warfish Manifesto (tm)

    A man goes to a political rally of a Presidential Candidate. At the rope-line, he manages to ask the candidate a question, a question many (not all, but certainly many) feel is a valid an appropriate question to be asked given the candidates stated policies. The candidate stops, and must also consider the question valid, as he takes the time to not only answer the question, but to answer it in detail……..

    Yep, the so-called “Joe the Plumber” is born.

    So, are we debating the validity of the question? Are we debating the wisdom or the candidates answer? Are we discussing the policy, the issue?

    Nope.

    It seems that something is rotten in America, and it isn’t just the Govt. stifling free speech as some folks on the left would make you believe.

    “Dissent is the American Way”.

    “Always Question your Leaders, question your Government”

    “It is patriotic to disagree”

    “Free Speech, Free Speech”

    These are just a sampling of what we have heard from the left-side of the isle over the past few years, a representative sample of the ideal that asking questions and free speech are valid, vital and needed in our society. Beyond that is the argument that Govt. should not be stamping down on the rights and freedoms of people to ask these questions, or to dissent peacefully. The core of the widespread “protest culture” of many on the left these days, it simply cannot be denied. All things I, in my more Libertarian viewpoint on this, agree with btw.

    Yet here we stand today, with the tables turned, and a witch hunt in progress.

    “Joe isn’t even a plumber, he’s not licensed, he must be a liar”

    “Joe is a registered Republican, he MUST be a McCain plant”

    “Joe isn’t a Union member, he should lose ALL his money the scumbag”

    “Joe is the son-in-law of….Charles KEATING! It’s all a McCain plot!”

    “Joe has circumstantial ties to Wasilla Alaska, as there is someone who lives in Wasilla with the same last name!”

    Etc, etc, etc…….

    Discussion of the issue, the question, or the answer?

    Nope, not even close. Instead we get a full bore, no-hold-barred media assault and investigation into the life of a guy who asked a question at a t political rally, dared to ask a question of the man who WILL be our next president on an valid issue in this campaign.

    From the Left-leaning Blogosphere, to the Major Mainstream media, the investigation and questioning of who JOE is, and why he was there, and what KIND of liar he simply MUST be has not only begun, but gone into fanatical overdrive.

    A man asked a question at a political rally, and now his entire life is being looked into by the media. A man asked a question at a political rally, and now he is under assault from every form of media we have in the United States, with the general viewpoint being as assumption that he MUST “have something to hide”.

    Meanwhile, no one is discussing the question. No one is discussing the candidates answer. No one is discussing the Policy.

    And while I respect anyone who fights to protect free speech, I must admit how stunned I am at how quickly the tide turns on that, and some of those same free speech folks now fully support the deep investigation of…..a guy who asked a question at a rally, and the candidate choose to answer.

    More media hours have now been spent exploring the life, ties and past of “Joe the Plumber” than was ever spent on William Ayes and Reverend Wright combined, outside of Right-Wing-Radio of course, the only group who apparently cares (as has been well documented here). The difference being, of course, that Joe spent 5 minutes asking a question of the candidate, whilst the other two have decade+ relationships with him.

    And the real issue here? Free Speech is taking a major hit…….if the mere act of questioning a candidate at a public rally on a valid issue (regardless of ones position, the issue of taxation IS a valid issue to ask about) leads to a full-scale media and blogosphere investigation of the man, his past and his supposed ties and lies, WHO, one must ask, will be the brave one next time they see a candidate to ask him any kind of deep question?

    You can say “Pah, no issue here, it’s the Media and not the Govt.” and we can have that conversation. But don’t doubt for a second that the Media has JUST as much power to destroy someone as our Govt. does. And when it comes to many in the unofficial media, they don’t even have to worry about getting their claims right, as has already been shown. Say it, and say it loud or often enough, and it’s true. The same claim so many try to lay at right-wing radio as well, but always seem to deny when their side does it.

    I know, the assumption is always for “conspiracy” when it comes to Republicans/Conservatives. If it’s right-leaning, it must be involved in a cover-up conspiracy to screw good and loyal American liberals. So Joe can’t simply be a guy, he simply MUST be a plant, a spy, and mole, and traitorous guy trying to undermine Obama.

    And who knows? I can’t prove he isn’t certainly. But the evidence is laughable thus far, and yet is being taken seriously by plenty of folks, and beyond that, the media in al it’s forms is digging deeper and deeper for more, More, MORE, as they simply refuse to believe he is “just a guy”.

    Where was this dedication to digging for the truth when it was the McCain “affair” they were discussing, or William Ayers, who the media has simply not talked to at all, and has taken Obama’s word alone on the nature of the relationship.

    So lost in this witch hunt is two things:

    --The ISSUE isn’t being discussed here. Only Joe the Plumber’s Life, and his “assumed” ties to the Right.

    --Who wants to question the leaders if the mere act of doing so (and the leader choosing to answer) will lead to every detail of ones life being dug into and exposed to the public?

    Now, two caveats here: First, I think John McCain was wrong to bring up the guy 27 or however many times he did during the debate. It is yet another sign that McCain is lame and desperate and losing badly in my view. And it unfairly put the guy in the spotlight far for McCain’s gain.

    Second, Joe the Plumber certainly doesn’t seem to object form getting his 15 minutes of fame. What can one say, human nature is what it is, and (almost) everyone likes the idea of being famous, even if they are under the assault of the media to get so.

    So neither McCain nor Joe, post-question-asking, are blameless here.

    But I believe the issue raised in this post is a valid one:

    --Is asking a question at a rally legitimate reason for the media to dig deep into the life and background of the questioner, deeper even (in some cases) than some media dug into the life and relationships of the Candidate?

    --Is the question-asker the issue? Or is the question and the answer on the topic of taxation the issue? Why should we spend 100x the talk-time on Joe than we do the question, the answer and the Policy?

    And finally, if this is how people who question will be treated......will YOU ask a tough and legitimate policy question next time you're at a rally?
    Last edited by Warfish; 10-17-2008 at 10:13 AM.

  2. #2
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    I think you are over reacting and you in fact answered your own questions. The guy may not have been a plant, but his question was flawed because the tax wouldn't even apply to him.

    Did you see the Daily Show bit on him last night?

    McCain brought this guy to the forefront and Joe the Plumber has welcomed the attention. He has done more interviews than Sarah Palin. Obama answered the guys question accurately and truthfully.

  3. #3
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    --Is asking a question at a rally legitimate reason for the media to dig deep into the life and background of the questioner, deeper even (in some cases) than some media dug into the life and relationships of the Candidate?

    --Is the question-asker the issue? Or is the question and the answer on the topic of taxation the issue? Why should we spent 100x the talk-time on Joe than we do the question, the answer and the Policy?

    And fianlly, if this is how people who question will be treated......will YOU ask a tough and legitimate policy question next time you're at a rally?[/QUOTE]

    MY ANSWER:
    When your question will used and replayed by a single party for the purposes of furthering their cause, then yes the person that is asking should be subject to his or her legitamacy in terms of the question asked. To jump on the back of someone who in no way characterizes the struggling day to day plumbers of the world, who on average make 47K a year, is misleading and downright wrong. If there was a REAL Joe the Plumber who stood behind McCain's policies, that made a strong point to why his taxation plan was better for America, thats a man that the working class Joe could get behind.

    Obama has done nothing but talk about the policies he is going to put try and put forth through Congress.

    Finally, yes, its our right as Americans to question our elected officials and those who are running for election when we find it appropriate, I know I will continue to do so, but one thing is for sure if I am going to use my personal history as the discription, i am not going to be ignorant to the fact that people are listening and will judge. In other words, I will be able to back up my story.

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    Personally, looking at the situation in its entirety, it seems like the question was designed to be a "gotcha" kind of question with the whole lead in of "Do you believe in the American Dream" and the convenience of this alleged small business making $250k+ when the dude isn't even a plumber. I don't think he was a plant....I do think he is not an undecided voter.

    That being said, it is what it is. The guy was polite and respectful and questioned a Presidential candidate on a legitimate issue. It raised specific differences between the candidates and it gave McCain a strong campaign soundbyte ("spreading the wealth").

    As a Democrat, I'm ok with all of that. Even if he was a plant (i don't think he was), there are far scummier things going on in today's politics. I'll disagree with JTP about Obama tap dancing around the answer - I think Obama answered it head on in the 6 minute discussion he had with him. He probably shouldn't have used the buzzwords "spreading the wealth" as that is ripe for attack, but I think he did a commendable job in answering.

    Obama believes in raising the taxes on the highest earners to the levels of the Pre-Bush tax cuts. Personally, as someone who probably falls in one of those two tax brackets (albeit barely), I'm ok with that. If that's considered redistributing the wealth, so be it. But, everything he said was not a secret. If McCain uses that in his campaign, more power to him - he should. Its a campaign for godsakes. Both guys will use whatever means are their disposal to further their positions. We shouldn't be surprised when it happens.

    But, if this guy turns out to be Charles Keating's relative, that's fair game also. In my mind, this guy has been somewhat disingenuous in the story he has related so I don't think taking a closer look is off limits. Things take on a life of their own in politics. Talking about the issue is obviously appropriate - McCain will take care of that. Considering the efforts that have gone into researching associates of associates in this campaign, its naive to think that this guy's background won't be checked out - especially if he gets 25 shout outs.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2808432]

    “Joe isn’t even a plumber, he’s not licensed, he must be a liar”

    “Joe is a registered Republican, he MUST be a McCain plant”

    “Joe isn’t a Union member, he should lose ALL his money the scumbag”

    “Joe is the son-in-law of….Charles KEATING! It’s all a McCain plot!”

    “Joe has circumstantial ties to Wasilla Alaska, as there is someone who lives in Wasilla with the same last name!”

    Etc, etc, etc…….

    Discussion of the issue, the question, or the answer?

    Nope, not even close. Instead we get a full bore, no-hold-barred media assault and investigation into the life of a guy who asked a question at a t political rally, dared to ask a question of the man who WILL be our next president on an valid issue in this campaign.

    From the Left-leaning Blogosphere, to the Major Mainstream media, the investigation and questioning of who JOE is, and why he was there, and what KIND of liar he simply MUST be has not only begun, but gone into fanatical overdrive.

    [B]Meanwhile, no one is discussing the question. No one is discussing the candidates answer. No one is discussing the Policy.[/B]

    [/QUOTE]
    Excellent post and thread- my sentiments exactly! No one is discussing the message here. The message is that Obama wants to punish the successful small business owner with more taxes.

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    Good post overall. The problem is in trying to use a very individual situation to reflect the more general population. But you have to admit, poor Joe the unlicensed plumber, should have stayed in his gopher hole....

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    Plumber Joe is an example of regular Americans. They think they are smarter than everyone and will blame politicians for their "regular" existence.

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    A number of people felt that the "joe the plumber" argument against obama's tax policy was bush league...forced and perhaps even contrived....they have good reason to be critical of the argument. you have expressed (rather vehemently) your feelings regarding why you are skeptical of those who are skeptical . Way to take a stand! Let it go Louie....

    [url]http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20081017/pl_bloomberg/ajgqmvekt3jg;_ylt=AgTKq8q.OLSDJVvch3dmeENsnwcF[/url]



    McCain May Stumble With Focus on `Joe the Plumber'
    Buzz UpSendSharePrint
    Ryan J. Donmoyer and Kristin Jensen – 36 mins ago
    Featured Topics: John McCain Barack Obama


    Oct. 17 (Bloomberg) -- John McCain's bid to shore up his poll numbers by highlighting ``Joe the plumber'' may backfire.
    Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, the Toledo plumber who criticized the tax proposals of Democratic nominee Barack Obama, owes back taxes, isn't licensed or registered in Ohio and would fare only slightly better under McCain's tax agenda than under Obama's even if his income soared.
    McCain this week thrust Wurzelbacher into the national spotlight as a symbol of overtaxed small-business owners after Obama opened clear leads in many states. Analysts said Wurzelbacher's circumstances have muddled McCain's effort to profit politically from the tax issue, making it unlikely ``Joe the plumber'' will have any more long-term benefit for his campaign than did the selection of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin as his running mate.
    ``Joe the plumber will have the same trajectory as Sarah Palin, but it will be tracked in hours rather than weeks,'' said Thomas Mann, a scholar at Washington's Brookings Institution.
    During the last presidential debate, Oct. 15, McCain said that what Obama would ``do to `Joe the plumber' and millions more like him is have their taxes increased and not be able to realize the American dream of owning their own business.''
    The problem for McCain, tax analysts said, is that the underlying premise that Wurzelbacher would face higher taxes under Obama is neither true nor typical of how the vast majority of small businesses would fare.
    Buy a Business
    Wurzelbacher told Obama Oct. 12 as the Illinois senator canvassed his neighborhood that he was about to buy a business that earns as much as $280,000 a year.
    ``Do you believe in the American dream?'' Wurzelbacher asked Obama, citing the Democrat's proposed tax rate increase for Americans earning more than $250,000. ``I'm being taxed more and more for fulfilling the American dream.''
    Wurzelbacher hasn't paid the taxes he already owes, according to the state of Ohio, which placed a tax lien against him for $1,182.98 on Jan. 26, 2007, that is still active. A second judgment against him was filed in March, 2007 by St. Charles Mercy Hospital for $1,261, records show.
    The company McCain said the plumber wants to buy has annual sales of $510,000, according to an analysis by Dun & Bradstreet. That makes it unlikely that Wurzelbacher's purchase would give him a taxable income of more than $200,000 -- leaving him unaffected by Obama's proposal to roll back tax breaks for those earning more than $250,000, said Steven Bankler, a certified public accountant in San Antonio, who counts plumbers and other trade professionals as his clients.
    Few Businesses Affected
    Few such small businesses have enough income to be affected by Obama's tax changes, Bankler said.
    One other problem in making Wurzelbacher a symbol of the overtaxed: he would pay just $773 more in taxes under Obama's plan than McCain's if he did earn an adjusted gross income of $280,000, according to an analysis by the Tax Foundation, a Washington research group that is critical of high taxes.
    Earning that much would make Wurzelbacher very unusual among small businesses. According to the Internal Revenue Service, most small businesses organize in ways that allow their owners to pay taxes at personal rates rather than as corporations, which impose a second layer of taxes. Almost 95 percent of 21.5 million owners of small businesses who file as sole proprietors had receipts under $100,000 in 2007.
    Another 4 million businesses organize as so-called subchapter S corporations, according to IRS data; less than 5 percent of them earn more than $200,000.
    `No Joe Six-Pack'
    If Wurzelbacher managed to earn $280,000, ``he's not an average Joe Six-Pack,'' said Gerald Prante, a senior economist at the Tax Foundation.
    ``Rather than a game-changing blow for the McCain campaign, `Joe the plumber' is turning into a bad case of blowback,'' said Rogan Kersh, a public service professor at New York University.
    Still, McCain is making an appeal to the white working class, a demographic ``disproportionately represented in many swing states,'' said Karlyn Bowman, an analyst at Washington's American Enterprise Institute. ``That's Joe's group.''
    The tax lien was filed in January 2007, six months after the state certified a delinquency for the taxes, said Ray Ann Estep, section chief for revenue-recovery services for the Ohio attorney general.
    ``Unfortunately, sometimes people don't resolve their debts as quickly as we would like them to,'' she said.
    No License
    Wurzelbacher doesn't have a plumber's license and isn't registered as a plumber in Ohio, the Toledo Blade reported on its Web site yesterday. His employer has a state plumbing license, the newspaper said.
    Before living in Ohio, Wurzelbacher was a resident of Mesa, Arizona, in McCain's home state, according to property records.
    McCain gave Wurzelbacher an apology yesterday for throwing him into the spotlight.
    ``Joe, if you're watching, I'm sorry,'' McCain said on CBS Corp.'s ``Late Show'' hosted by David Letterman. ``But from what I've read, and I have not talked to him, but from what I've read, he's taken it pretty well.''
    To contact the reporter on this story: Ryan J. Donmoyer in Washington at o [email]rdonmoyer@bloomberg.net[/email] Kristin Jensen in Washington at [email]kjensen@bloomberg.net[/email]

  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2808452]Excellent post and thread- my sentiments exactly! No one is discussing the message here. The message is that Obama wants to punish the successful small business owner with more taxes.[/QUOTE]

    The message is the same message he's always been touting. Taxes will rise on a very small percentage of people. If a small business owner makes (as in net income) over $250k, yes, his taxes will go up. Not dramatically, but they'll go up.

    Its certainly fair to discuss it - anyone I know who is voting for McCain is doing so on account of his promise to lower their taxes. That's obviously their right. But, its not like Obama just proposed this tax hike on the rope line. This has been his proposal for some time.

    If what JTP said is true....if he is living outside Toledo and will have an income of over $250k, I don't have a care in the world for him. He'll be doing just fine. It would be more relevant if the conversation took place in Nassau County where the cost of living is substantially higher.

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    Two very breif clarifications:

    --I absolutely APPLUAD Obama for answering teh question, and doing so honestly. While I disagree with him on the issue, I appreciate when ANY leader doesn;t feed a BS answer.

    --Even if Joe were a total fraud, does that make the question on the issue of taxation, and hence the honest and frank Obama answer on Taxation Policy, illegitimate? If it was illegitimate, why would Obama take so much time to answer and so honestly and thoroughly?

    I do not believe it does (nor have I seen any real evidence yet that Joe was illegitimate either as yet, but I'm open if additional details come in, even if I do not support the investiagtion itself).

    As I said, Joe and McCain bear some burden here as well, but if one is being honest it's easy to see that the investigation into him isn't being driven by McCain or Joe himself, but my the various forms of Media.

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    Agreed that the character assassination and conspiracy theories are irrelevant and a distraction. The focus should be the question and the answer.

    Joe the Plumber asked a legitimate question, and Obama gave an honest answer. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

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    This coming from the poster who makes it a point to question the credibility of every single person or event when it pertains to Obama.

    Pretty hard to take your call to stop questioning this guy seriously

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2808483]


    --Even if Joe were a total fraud, does that make the question on the issue of taxation, and hence the honest and frank Obama answer on Taxation Policy, illegitimate? If it was illegitimate, why would Obama take so much time to answer and so honestly and thoroughly? [/QUOTE]

    Not at all. However, is it maybe possible that joe asked a misleading question with a faulty premise as its foundation? And is it illegitimate to question the accuracy and intent of the questioner when he is cited as an icon in a political discourse?

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    [QUOTE=SDJETS;2808493]This coming from the poster who makes it a point to question the credibility of every single person or event when it pertains to Obama.

    Pretty hard to take your call to stop questioning this guy seriously[/QUOTE]

    Then don't take me seriously. That is certainly your right.

    People have every right to ignore every single word I write, and every opinion or viewpoint I offer.

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    He wasn't a plant.

    It was a legitimate question.

    Obama gave a good answer and deserves credit for telling the guy the blunt truth about where and why he stands on the issue. The guy deserves credit for asking a legitimate question in a polite manner.

    The only potential problem in the whole thing is that the guy may have misprepresented his situation, creating a perception that plumbers making $250k a year are somehow "everyman." He doesn't make $250k, the company he wants to buy doesn't make $250k, so he'd actually do better, tax-wise, under Obama's plan. So McCain is basically advancing a narrative about the guy on national television that is false, which is unfortunate.

    Beyond that, however, he's a private citizen and I see no need for him to be so aggressively vetted (now that these basic facts are out).

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    WF - I think you'll find the debate was much more about his question prior to John McCain using him as the centerpiece of his debate platform.

    McCain mentioned him like 20+ times that night. McCain out of nowhere tried to politicize the questioner, so of course people become skeptical.

    If you look at the thread, post 95 (by me) was right after McCain first brought up Joe the Plumber, completely out of the blue not even 5 minutes into the debate. How could you not become skeptical right away?

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    [QUOTE=nuu faaola;2808512]He wasn't a plant.

    It was a legitimate question.

    Obama gave a good answer and deserves credit for telling the guy the blunt truth about where and why he stands on the issue. The guy deserves credit for asking a legitimate question in a polite manner.

    The only potential problem in the whole thing is that the guy may have misprepresented his situation, creating a perception that plumbers making $250k a year are somehow "everyman." He doesn't make $250k, the company he wants to buy doesn't make $250k, so he'd actually do better, tax-wise, under Obama's plan. So McCain is basically advancing a narrative about the guy on national television that is false, which is unfortunate.

    Beyond that, however, he's a private citizen and I see no need for him to be so aggressively vetted (now that these basic facts are out).[/QUOTE]
    +1
    bye

  18. #18
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    [QUOTE=CTM;2808517]WF - I think you'll find the debate was much more about his question prior to John McCain using him as the centerpiece of his debate platform.

    McCain mentioned him like 20+ times that night. McCain out of nowhere tried to politicize the questioner, so of course people become skeptical.

    If you look at the thread, post 95 (by me) was right after McCain first brought up Joe the Plumber, completely out of the blue not even 5 minutes into the debate. How could you not become skeptical right away?[/QUOTE]

    Because Politicians do things like that, glom onto something they think will help them, regardless of the cost to the person involved.

    Even if he IS a plant, which I clearly do not believe based on the evidence thus far, I do not believe it makes the question, or the answer, or the issue, invalid.

    But instead of discussing those, we're discussing him, and the media is chasing him. I agree, McCain and Joe himself bear some burden here, McCain especially. But that does not legitimize, in my view, the media whichunt.

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    so let me guess, the politicians and the government had nothing to do with the financial crisis?

    maybe the politicians should stop trying to be everything and anything to the people who vote. maybe they should be courageous and not vote for things the people want because what they want can be bad for them.

    [QUOTE=cr726;2808473]Plumber Joe is an example of regular Americans. They think they are smarter than everyone and will blame politicians for their "regular" existence.[/QUOTE]

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    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2808471]Good post overall. The problem is in trying to use a very individual situation to reflect the more general population. But you have to admit, poor Joe the unlicensed plumber, should have stayed in his gopher hole....[/QUOTE]
    With all the other Christmas conspiracists.

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