Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 80

Thread: Two major industries likely to be abolished today

  1. #41
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    15,550
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=TerryBadway;2841265]My answer is above, BB.[/QUOTE]

    Where? Do you think I owe any of this debt?

  2. #42
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Chicago (Via Harlem, Via Madison WI)
    Posts
    2,571
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2841272]Where? Do you think I owe any of this debt?[/QUOTE]

    Absolutely....You, me and everybody else.

  3. #43
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    15,550
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=TerryBadway;2841275]Absolutely....You, me and everybody else.[/QUOTE]

    Morally, legally, or both?

  4. #44
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    greenwich village, NYC
    Posts
    8,118
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=shakin318;2841141]How many blacks will vote for Obama simply because he is black? (If your answer isn't at least 7 figures, you're simply disingenuous) Is it okay for them to vote strictly on skin color? If so, why would it not be okay to vote for McCain because he is white? Please explain.

    As for the idiot who referred to him as "that black boy," his name was Jimmy Carter.[/QUOTE]

    Now you're being disingenous. How many Catholics voted for Kennedy because he was a Catholic? How many veterans voted for John McCain because he's a veteran? How many opportunities did black people have in our history to vote for a black candidate for president? Indeed, they've been voting for two white guys (after fighting to even get a vote) forever. If Obama was, let's say, a Clarence Thomas conservative, and blacks voted for him blindly across the socioeconomic continuum, that would indeed be racism driven voting. But the truth is that Obama speaks to blacks and their interests and does so eloquently. They're voting for him, as many are, because he has a preacher's gift to make people feel more optimistic, to feel more unified, and to feel they are being heard (it all my be BS in the end, but that is his gift), not to mention that he conveys youth and confidence and that attracts young voters. This is Nixon/Kennedy 1960 all over again.

  5. #45
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    15,550
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;2841344]Now you're being disingenous. How many Catholics voted for Kennedy because he was a Catholic? How many veterans voted for John McCain because he's a veteran? How many opportunities did black people have in our history to vote for a black candidate for president? Indeed, they've been voting for two white guys (after fighting to even get a vote) forever. If Obama was, let's say, a Clarence Thomas conservative, and blacks voted for him blindly across the socioeconomic continuum, that would indeed be racism driven voting. But the truth is that Obama speaks to blacks and their interests and does so eloquently. They're voting for him, as many are, because he has a preacher's gift to make people feel more optimistic, to feel more unified, and to feel they are being heard (it all my be BS in the end, but that is his gift), not to mention that he conveys youth and confidence and that attracts young voters. This is Nixon/Kennedy 1960 all over again.[/QUOTE]
    I donít think he would disagree with you regarding JFK. Heís just showing the other side of the coin. Some whites people vote for whites because they are white. Some blacks vote for blacks because they are black.

  6. #46
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Chicago (Via Harlem, Via Madison WI)
    Posts
    2,571
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2841283]Morally, legally, or both?[/QUOTE]
    [B]
    Legally for now, right![/B] There are plenty of other things that I pay more for legally that I don't support. That's part of what makes this country great though, we participate as a collective, while being guaranteed extensive individual rights.

    Somebody pays for the after school programs in your native Brooklyn to be open. I think whether you believe it or not, that's a debt that taxpayers are paying. I'm quite fine with it, if you aren't (I'll cut you a check if need be).

    [B]Morally, maybe.[/B] That's internal value that only you can properly quantify. Hey, some people are happy that in the "land of opportunity" there are people who have historically and in some cases still are systematically disenfranchised, and are for all intents and purposes unable "to compete."

    But you don't owe anything, Right? Why the interest in my thoughts?

  7. #47
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Lima Zulu
    Posts
    6,564
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=shakin318;2840866]When the likely happens and Obama wins the presidency, the humongous industry of "racism" that has grossly lined the pockets of wonderful human beings such as Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson will no longer hold water. Millions of Americans will now have to look in the mirror and finally blame themselves for their personal shortcomings, daily travails and human foibles that befall every one of us, no matter what color our skin. Personal accountability -- what a concept.
    [/QUOTE]


    Hey I accept my shortfalls and my poor decisions in my youth that led me to incarceration.

    So when you say "Millions of Americans will now have to look in the mirror and finally blame themselves", please dont give me that bull$hit that you mean EVERYONE , not just colored folk.

    You are talking directly at us, homeboy. Who the fu(k are you kidding?
    Why bring up Sharpton and Jackson in the first place and follow it up with that statement?

    I have paid my dues for my mistakes, not all of us minorities fall under the "woe is me" banner. And if you think that ALL of what Sharpton and Jackson stand for is a giant huge JOKE, you are wrong.

    So remember this analogy if Obama is elected.....

    A black rapper cannot go "Platinum" if only the minorities are buying his product. Same applies to this Election.

  8. #48
    Waterboy
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    47
    Post Thanks / Like

    terry

    Terry,
    I agree with a lot of what you said. Just one question: Do the Africans who sold the slaves to the europeans also owe the debt?

  9. #49
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    greenwich village, NYC
    Posts
    8,118
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2841355]I donít think he would disagree with you regarding JFK. Heís just showing the other side of the coin. Some whites people vote for whites because they are white. Some blacks vote for blacks because they are black.[/QUOTE]

    And I'm just suggesting that the terms "white" and "black" need to be unpacked a bit more to understand what they mean to voters. They usually come with some baggage. If "white" means: he has the same values as me overall that's very different than "black" meaning: he's one of those shiftless, low-intelligence people who are going to steal my wallet when I'm not looking and are inherently criminal and unpatriotic. Details matter.

  10. #50
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    In transit
    Posts
    6,114
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=TerryBadway;2841038]Gotcha.....I agree, this issue has a ton of depth and complexity, and to spend the time necessary to explore these arguments on a message board is moot.

    I will say though, that I define we as "all of us." The way I contribute to paying back "the country's debt," Is through not only my tax dollars (no matter how minute that might be), but through donating some of my time and money to underprivileged communities here in Chicago (Black, Latino, and Polish residents).[/QUOTE]

    Not trying to jump in the middle of the conversation, but well, I guess I am.

    If you have programs in place to promote minorities, to give them a leg up when there might be a more deserving person, that's good, it helps the minority. But it punishes someone else who deserved a promotion.

    On the flip side, someone like yourself who deserved every promotion you get, now people look at you and say "Did he deserve it, or was it handed to him?" Now that diminishes what you have done.

    My father in law was in the Chicago FD for years. He did fine, got promoted with no problems. But he saw many of his friends get "passed over" so that a minority could be promoted. Is that fair? Does that then diminish the acomplishment of what other minority candidates earned? Does that help repay the "debt" or does that foster more and future ill will for others?

    If a man is passed over because he is white, and goes home and complains in front of his children, is he helping to foster another generation of possible racists? Consequently, if that same man later loses out to a minority because that minority is better for the job, will the man accept it, or think that again he was passed over for being white?

  11. #51
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Chicago (Via Harlem, Via Madison WI)
    Posts
    2,571
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=dermlord;2841377]Terry,
    I agree with a lot of what you said. Just one question: Do the Africans who sold the slaves to the europeans also owe the debt?[/QUOTE]

    No. Bro, this is an America issue. Looking at things logically, I don't think anyone would be able to convince either of us that sub-saharan or west Africa benefited from the export of their people. It was a short-term win, for a select few, that has no bearing on the world as we know it today.

    When I speak of owing and paying the debt, it has much more to do with empowering people for the future, not about living in the past. Our Country has benefited from the efforts of minorities in the past, and the benefit to our society will be even greater in the future if minorities are more productive.

    This is why I agreed, somewhat, with Shakin's original post. We just have to be cognizant of the fact that the state of minorities in this country isn't completely attributed to a self-inflicted wound. It's going to take a great deal of efforts and personal responsibility to correct this. I think Obama will be a catalyst for this change.

  12. #52
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Chicago (Via Harlem, Via Madison WI)
    Posts
    2,571
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=chirorob;2841413]Not trying to jump in the middle of the conversation, but well, I guess I am.

    If you have programs in place to promote minorities, to give them a leg up when there might be a more deserving person, that's good, it helps the minority. But it punishes someone else who deserved a promotion.

    On the flip side, someone like yourself who deserved every promotion you get, now people look at you and say "Did he deserve it, or was it handed to him?" Now that diminishes what you have done.

    My father in law was in the Chicago FD for years. He did fine, got promoted with no problems. But he saw many of his friends get "passed over" so that a minority could be promoted. Is that fair? Does that then diminish the acomplishment of what other minority candidates earned? Does that help repay the "debt" or does that foster more and future ill will for others?

    If a man is passed over because he is white, and goes home and complains in front of his children, is he helping to foster another generation of possible racists? Consequently, if that same man later loses out to a minority because that minority is better for the job, will the man accept it, or think that again he was passed over for being white?[/QUOTE]

    Chirorob.....

    I've never said that AA is the ultimate solution (i actually haven't even mentioned affirmative action or quotas in this thread). And to be honest with you, I can tell you just as many stories from the other side of the fence.

    I won't pretend to have an answer for what policy or strategies need to be put in place to make this work for everyone. And clearly, whatever solutions are put in place wouldn't work for everyone.
    Last edited by TerryBadway; 11-04-2008 at 01:15 PM.

  13. #53
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Lima Zulu
    Posts
    6,564
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=jetstream23;2841121]I'm just excited that after 30+ years I can finally say, as a white guy, that "The Man is holding me back" :D :P[/QUOTE]


    and if Obama gets elected I can finally (after 8 years) say :

    "If you dont like the way the country is run, move the hell out."
    :D

  14. #54
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    In transit
    Posts
    6,114
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=TerryBadway;2841450]Chirorob.....

    I've never said that AA is the ultimate solution (i actually haven't even mentioned affirmative action or quotas in this thread). And to be honest with you, I can tell you just as many stories from the other side of the fence.

    I won't pretend to have an answer for what policy or strategies need to be put in place to make this work for everyone. [B]And clearly, whatever solutions are put in place wouldn't work for everyone.[/QUOTE][/B]

    Very true. And of course there are just as many (realistically more) stories from the other side. very difficult topic. And the fact is, people will have very different views, with legitimate reasons on both sides.

  15. #55
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    6,871
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=TerryBadway;2840977]Shakin...Those are the great questions. And those questions are at the heart of the battle for not only programs (affirmative action, diversity programing, social investment), but the answers to those questions are the primary drivers for the resentment between the races. And we may agree on some of these, and strongly disagree on others, but I can accept (to an extent) that other side of the argument.

    The thing is.....We first have to answer, was/is there a debt owed.

    My answer to that would be, Certainly.[/QUOTE]

    A debt to whom? Why do people think they are owned anything? And this is not just about black/white racial issues?

    I'm Scottish by heritage. Do the English owe me anything for the abuse that took place 400 odd years ago?

    Is the Jewish community owed anything for the persecution over 2000 years ago?

    In Canada, the big one is residential schooling of Native Indians and land claim rights....are those who were displaced from their homes and put in residential schools owed anything? Absolutely...the ones that are still alive today. Are their kids, grandchildren, great-grandchildren owed anything....NO.

    Land claim rights....there is a dispute about land claims with native Indians, and who actually "owns" what...should it be settled? Yes, but that doesn't mean three hundred years from now a native Indian ought to get something for the struggles faced by native Indians due to land-claim disputes centuries prior.

    IF black people are being sold in the modern era to white slaves, then the white slaves need to be punished and those who are being traded need to be helped.
    I don't think the English are still taking the wives of Scots man so they can have sex with them and "breed" out the Scottish. If so, those that it happens to deserve support, help, remuneration etc...

    IF this conversation is going where it has gone in the past, then there is a serious flaw somewhere in the thinking...
    Last edited by CanadaSteve; 11-04-2008 at 01:27 PM.

  16. #56
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,611
    Post Thanks / Like
    I'm curious.

    -Would the lives of today's American Blacks be better if the day Slavery were abolished, the U.S. Government repatriated every single person of African Decent back to Africa, and paid them some amount of money for the work/suffering/loss of life?

    -Would the lives of today's American Blacks be better if Slavery had never occured and all of them had stayed and lived their lives in Africa, with whatever future such a historical change would have led to?

    Intellectual masturbation of course, hypotheticals always are, but it's one aspect of the "I owe you" question that rarely gets pondered. For all the evil of Slavery and racism, are you better off today than your counterparts in Africa? Would you trade away all that you have today to have had slavery never happen, and to instead be a citizen/resident of whatever african nation your specific family came from?

  17. #57
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Lima Zulu
    Posts
    6,564
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2841505]I'm curious.

    -Would the lives of today's American Blacks be better if the day Slavery were abolished, the U.S. Government repatriated every single person of African Decent back to Africa, and paid them some amount of money for the work/suffering/loss of life?

    -Would the lives of today's American Blacks be better if Slavery had never occured and all of them had stayed and lived their lives in Africa, with whatever future such a historical change would have led to?

    Intellectual masturbation of course, hypotheticals always are, but it's one aspect of the "I owe you" question that rarely gets pondered. For all the evil of Slavery and racism, are you better off today than your counterparts in Africa? Would you trade away all that you have today to have had slavery never happen, and to instead be a citizen/resident of whatever african nation your specific family came from?[/QUOTE]



    Hopefully one of our friends can answer this for all of us......

    We'd love to hear from you.

  18. #58
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Miami, Fl
    Posts
    18,661
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2841164]I am not smart enough either. But I think the answer has already presented itself: Time. Along with a healthy dose of self-determinationa nd personal responsabillity for what happens to ones culture from every day forward.

    Kid today don't see things as even I did a mere decade ago. Race isn't the issue it was, and racism isn't the issue it was. as time passes, that becomes more so.

    But when you have policies in place the remind everyone that the races ARE different, and must be treated differently, you defeat your own puposes of equallity. You remind (force) blacks to believe they are victims of oppression, even if they're not. and you victimize whites for crimes they never committed, hurting their lives, and making them angry and bitter and cynical about so-called equallity.[/QUOTE]


    time alone won't do it though

  19. #59
    Board Moderator
    Jets Insider VIP
    Charter JI Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    nyc
    Posts
    11,553
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote=Warfish;2841505]I'm curious.

    -Would the lives of today's American Blacks be better if the day Slavery were abolished, the U.S. Government repatriated every single person of African Decent back to Africa, and paid them some amount of money for the work/suffering/loss of life?

    -Would the lives of today's American Blacks be better if Slavery had never occured and all of them had stayed and lived their lives in Africa, with whatever future such a historical change would have led to?

    Intellectual masturbation of course, hypotheticals always are, but it's one aspect of the "I owe you" question that rarely gets pondered. For all the evil of Slavery and racism, are you better off today than your counterparts in Africa? Would you trade away all that you have today to have had slavery never happen, and to instead be a citizen/resident of whatever african nation your specific family came from?[/quote]The thing that makes all of that hard to answer is that slaves were not chosen at random - they were usually hand-picked as the best available, from what I know. So you have to wonder how different Africa, or parts of Africa, might be had the slave trade not existed.

    Either way, I think the answer to the first premise is decidedly "no" - those that would have been repatriated were not raised in Africa and would have had no 'home' there, they would have been at a disadvantage I would think.

    For the second premise, I'd guess that yes, as a whole, the lives of today's American Blacks would be better if slavery never existed. On pure numbers, I don't think the overriding experience of the American Black is a positive one. I may be geographically skewed (as an inner-city resident), but that's my guess.

  20. #60
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    1,962
    Post Thanks / Like
    Whatever your beliefs or politics, the notion that Obama winning the presidency and Palin's "treatment" destroy "race" and "feminism" is naive and could really only be uttered by a white male. I somehow doubt you will find a majority of women or non-whites claiming that, right or wrong.

    Its the luxury of the dominant to declare that racism and sexism don't exist and/or are dead and to rail against "reverse racism."

    But anyway you try and argue it, Obama being elected is a great step in the very very very problematic history of US racial relations. But in no way does it "solve" or "put an end" to problems pertaining to race.

    The idea that women should be ashamed or can't be feminists because they didn't believe Palin was qualified to be vice president pretty much cuts right to the heart of the feminist argument. A person should be judged on their merits, not on their gender, and the fact that McCain picking her was clearly, and has been admitted to being, a move based on electability reasons didn't help at all. Again, being a feminist does not means you have to support every woman no matter their merits.

    It actually boggles the mind how the idea that we're "post-feminism" has taken root, that somehow its shameful, wrong, or whatever to seek equality for women.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us