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Thread: Architectural plans of Auschwitz death camp found in Berlin

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    Architectural plans of Auschwitz death camp found in Berlin

    Architectural plans of Auschwitz death camp found in Berlin

    Nov. 8, 2008
    JPost.com Staff , THE JERUSALEM POST
    The German paper Bild revealed never-before-seen architectural plans of the Auschwitz extermination camp on Saturday.

    The floor plans, cross-sections and maps on yellowing paper, mostly on a scale of 1:100, were allegedly found during the evacuation of an abandoned Berlin apartment. They were drawn up between 1941 and 1943, when the Holocaust was at its peak.

    The 28 documents include detailed blueprints of prisoner barracks, gas chambers marked clearly Gaskammer in a gothic-inspired font and even a cross-section of the gate into which entered the rails of trains carrying Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, disabled persons and other people the National Socialists sent to die in the most horrifyingly efficient genocide in history.

    One of the maps carries the handwritten signature of Gestapo commander Heinrich Himmler.

    The plans were not construction plans but were drawn after Auschwitz-Birkenau was built (on the foundations of an existing military base of the Austro-Hungarian empire.)

    On 20 January 1942 Nazi officials met in the resort of Wannsee east of Berlin where they devised the Final Solution, and this has traditionally been taken by historians as the beginning of the Nazis' extermination campaign.

    One of the drawings, predating the Wannsee Conference by eight months, sheds new light on the chronological extent of the German genocidal machine.

    Dr. Hans-Dieter Kreikamp, Chief Director of the Bundesarchivs, the federal archives in Berlin, said the find was of "extraordinary importance."

    "The plans are authentic certificates of a systematically planned genocide of European Jews," he was quoted by Bild as saying.

    What the documents tellingly reveal, however, in their unequivocally marked sections, is that any persons involved in the operation of Auschwitz knew full well that it was intended for the systematic extermination of human beings, and were not simple "labor camps."

    French right-wing politician Jean-Marie Le Pen claimed no people were gassed in Auschwitz as recently as April this year.

    As the plans show a "Laundry and shower room" leading into a "Dressing room" and then to the "Gas chamber," there could be no doubt what the purpose of the large room marked Gaskammer was.

    The documents rebut the last Holocaust deniers, Bild states in its report.

    [URL="http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1225910066286&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter"]http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1225910066286&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter[/URL]


    I am curious about the article saying the plans were "allegedly found in an excavation." What does that mean? Is there any investigation going on as to who made these plans and where were they hiding for the last 60 years?
    Last edited by Queens Jet Fan; 11-08-2008 at 02:25 PM.

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    Anyone ever visit Auschwitz or any other concentration camp? I was in the USAF stationed in England. I went to Germany on temporary duty (TDY) a few times.

    No matter where you are in Germany you can't drive 30 miles in any direction without coming across something related to the round up, deportation and murder of millions of innocent human beings. Camps, holding areas, train stations used exclusively for the 'final solution'. It was so f'd up!

    The Nazis killed their own. Many, MANY Germans died in places like Dachau.

    :jets18

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    [QUOTE=AlbanyJet;2848134]Anyone ever visit Auschwitz or any other concentration camp? I was in the USAF stationed in England. I went to Germany on temporary duty (TDY) a few times.

    No matter where you are in Germany you can't drive 30 miles in any direction without coming across something related to the round up, deportation and murder of millions of innocent human beings. Camps, holding areas, train stations used exclusively for the 'final solution'. It was so f'd up!

    The Nazis killed their own. Many, MANY Germans died in places like Dachau.

    :jets18[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, I've been there. It is very moving for sure.

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    [QUOTE=AlbanyJet;2848134]Anyone ever visit Auschwitz or any other concentration camp? I was in the USAF stationed in England. I went to Germany on temporary duty (TDY) a few times.

    No matter where you are in Germany you can't drive 30 miles in any direction without coming across something related to the round up, deportation and murder of millions of innocent human beings. Camps, holding areas, train stations used exclusively for the 'final solution'. It was so f'd up!

    The Nazis killed their own. Many, MANY Germans died in places like Dachau.

    :jets18[/QUOTE]

    I was in Aushwitz with my kids who were high school and college aged at the time. It was really weird as it was June and the grass was very green and the plants were in bloom as we entered Aushwitz 1 which is now a museaum. In movies and in newsreels Aushwitz is always in black and white and very stark not like it looked live in color. My son actually said it looks like the U. of Pa. The museum looks like any other prison museum- not like a concentration camp at all.

    Then after we traveled a few miles to Birkeneau which is where the gas chambers, crematorium, and the barracks were. Then it hit us. It truly was incredible to think how millions were lead to death from the railway tracks to the crematorium which were left in the state that the Russians found them in when the Germans destroyed them before fleeing. The barracks were so stark with wooden boards that served as beds with tens of prisoners sleeping on one board. You could just imagine how cold it was in the winter with no heat and no insulation. It was just the most horrible place.

    If you think you can't go far in Germany without seeing evidence of the Holocaust you should traved through Poland. Unfortunately most of sites are not even marked. I met in a synagogue in Cracow this 60 year old hippie a survivor from Calif. who returned to his homeland and set up a foundation to mark the historical locations. In the synagogue we met the man shot by the commandant of the labor camp from his balcony and given up for dead, a scene that was reenacted in Schindler's List. It truly was an amazing experience.
    Last edited by Queens Jet Fan; 11-08-2008 at 06:51 PM.

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2848213]Horrible

    Do you feel the presence of evil?

    I'm serious, QJF, its a serious question, when you stood in those places did you ever feel the presence of evil?

    Same Question for you, Albany .. I'm Just curious[/QUOTE]
    Ham we absolutely did. Walking along the train tracks and thinking what took place at that very spot was plain chilling.

    It brought me to the scene from Sophie's Choice of her having to decide which of her children to let live. What horror and depravity existed on the very ground we were then standing on!

    You could see the pits that to this day are filled with ashes. One can't help but be profoundly moved and really question how man could do this to another man and even women and children. How did they get to that state?

    If anyone has the chance I implore them to go to DC and visit the Holocaust Museum. They explain it there so much better then I ever could.

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    [QUOTE=Queens Jet Fan;2848012]Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, disabled persons and other people the National Socialists sent to die in the most horrifyingly efficient genocide in history.[/QUOTE]

    First, this needs to be rethought. I can take the 2 train to the lower west side and see all of the Nazi genocide targets but I won't run into a single Native American. At this point i'd settle for half native.

    [QUOTE=Queens Jet Fan;2848012]I am curious about the article saying the plans were "allegedly found in an excavation." What does that mean? Is there any investigation going on as to who made these plans and where were they hiding for the last 60 years?[/QUOTE]

    If there's not an investigation there should be! This is documentary altering, text book out-dating stuff here. This could be just the start of things to pour out from this excavation regarding that time period.

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2848229]Its strange you should mention that, QJF .. that is the most troubling scene I have ever seen in a movie .. even now, just talking about it, makes me feel uneasy, because I know its real, I know that scene really played itself out many many times over and its absolutely staggering, for some reason it just highlights mans inhumanity to man like nothing I have ever seen, that's why I asked you about the presence of evil, I'm convinced evil is real, I think its the only way to answer your question, [COLOR="Red"]how did they get to that state?[/COLOR]

    For me there is no other answer to that question, that's what I believe in my heart, in the depths of my soul, which is why I asked if you felt the presence of evil in those places, and I'm not surprised that you did, I'm not surprised that presence is still there till this day[/QUOTE]

    I guess great minds do think alike. I just couldn't get that scene from the movie out of my mind and yes what makes it so much more horrifying was that it was very real.

    I will try to answer the question, "how did they get to that state" in a different manner. I think the real reason the perpetrators were able to carry out the final solution was that the victims were totally dehumanized in their eyes. The state propaganda and innate anti-semitism got to them so much that they didn't look at their victims as humans. I wouldn't even say animals because they couldn't do that to animals. It seems like movies bring this stuff to light but do you remember in Schindler's List how a guard was playing and was so kind to a dog after shooting a Jew? I bet you if they were there to gas innocent puppies they couldn't do it. Somehow they were made to feel that Jews were a completely different breed in themselves.

    Tolerance is such an important virtue to teach to a society. I feel in our country although we are taught tolerance in schools in practice we are not very tolerant of those who don't think or talk like we want them to. Of course politician on both parties and cable and talk radio extremists don't help in that respect at all.

    As a nation I think we just need to take a deep breath and chill.

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2848288]You know I have never seen Schindler's list and Sophie's Choice is the reason why

    That scene we discussed, Steve, in Sophie's Choice, is the reason why I have never seen Schindler's list

    In fact I only saw Sophie's Choice one time, way back when it first came out, only saw that movie and that scene that one time and I have never seen it again, I can't watch it again, its the only scene I have ever seen in my life, in any movie, no matter how horrible, that I cannot watch again. It had that kind of profound effect on me, and so much so that I can recall that scene like it was yesterday, like I just saw it yesterday, it made that kind of indeliable impression and it is that scorched into my memory, but I cannot watch it again.

    I think a part of that is what we discussed the other day, how the bolsheviks murdered my Grandfathers parents right in front of him when he was just a kid and seeing how that effected my Grandfather all of his life. He was a very quiet man, but you could tell he was a tortured soul and he drank to medicate his pain. I was very close with Grandfather who has long since passed away, and I think on some level I felt a strange connection to that scene and that character {Sophie}, and this overwhelming sense of saddness my Grandfather lived with. I think in part that's why I can't watch it again, and I know that scene is the reason why I have never seen Schindler's list.

    Anyway, I agree with your "de-humanize" thesis, in fact I know that is correct, you are exactly right, and you are exactly right that they probably couldn't even do that to animals, but underneeth it all I think evil has to permeate ones thought process to get to that place where you are capable of de-humanizing people to that degree. I don't think you can get there without evil. The clinical term might be "sociopath", but too me that's just a fancy word for evil[/QUOTE]

    That's too bad that you never saw Schindler's List, but I fully understand. It was a great movie and so well made. The movie was in black and white except for the very beginning and the very end with one exception. After the liquidation of the Cracow ghetto they show Schindler and one of his woman friends on horses from a distance overlooking the scene of human misery and suffering.

    Schindler notices a little girl walking through the rubble and slowly the film turns to color and you see her wearing a red coat. What a genius Spielberg is. It so humanized that heart wrenching scene.

    I'm so sorry for that terrible torture your grandfather had to live through. I'm sure your closeness was a great source of pleasure for him.

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    [QUOTE=Queens Jet Fan;2848328]That's too bad that you never saw Schindler's List, but I fully understand. It was a great movie and so well made. The movie was in black and white except for the very beginning and the very end with one exception. After the liquidation of the Cracow ghetto they show Schindler and one of his woman friends on horses from a distance overlooking the scene of human misery and suffering.

    Schindler notices a little girl walking through the rubble and slowly the film turns to color and you see her wearing a red coat. What a genius Spielberg is. It so humanized that heart wrenching scene.

    I'm so sorry for that terrible torture your grandfather had to live through. I'm sure your closeness was a great source of pleasure for him.[/QUOTE]

    The way he transferred from color at the beginning of the film was pretty neat too. If I remember right, it involved blowing out a candle or something. I need to watch that movie again. But yeah, everything in black in white except for the little girl in the red coat was masterful.

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    Please don't comment in a Holocaust thread. I understand your views and you are perfectly allowed to have them (unlike in some countries where people who share your view are jailed, but I won't input my views on those laws in this post). But there are just some topics that I really feel it is disrespectful for people to share opposing view points of, and this is one of them. If you don't take my advise, oh well, it is your opinion. I am just asking you, please.
    Last edited by Green Jets & Ham; 11-09-2008 at 09:30 AM.

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    BTW, is anyone else here not at all surprised that our resident neonazi has reading comprehension issues? Read the article again, bright boy. It isn't "the first Nazi documentation of a gas chamber" - not by a long shot. It's merely the [B]earliest[/B]; as in prior documentation was tied to or post-dated the Wannsee Conference held in 1942.

    Ah well, I suppose if reading comprehension were your strong suit you wouldn't be a neonazi in the first place.
    Last edited by Green Jets & Ham; 11-09-2008 at 09:31 AM.

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    [QUOTE=doggin94it;2848486]BTW, is anyone else here not at all surprised that our resident neonazi has reading comprehension issues? Read the article again, bright boy. It isn't "the first Nazi documentation of a gas chamber" - not by a long shot. It's merely the [B]earliest[/B]; as in prior documentation was tied to or post-dated the Wannsee Conference held in 1942.

    Ah well, I suppose if reading comprehension were your strong suit you wouldn't be a neonazi in the first place.[/QUOTE]
    Well his failing reading comprehension does not stop there. All the article says is that in the plans it was labeled gas chamber.

    That of course does not mean that in the actual building it was labeled as such.

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    [QUOTE=Sharrow;2848352]The way he transferred from color at the beginning of the film was pretty neat too. If I remember right, it involved blowing out a candle or something. I need to watch that movie again. But yeah, everything in black in white except for the little girl in the red coat was masterful.[/QUOTE]
    Good point. If memory serves me well the color fades out with the lighting of the Sabbath candlesticks at the begining of the film, and then comes back at the end of the film, when the survivors light the candles in the liberated Schindler factory.

    Pure genius.

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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;2848213]Horrible

    Did you feel the presence of evil?

    I'm serious, QJF, its a serious question, when you stood in those places did you ever feel the presence of evil?

    Same Question for you, Albany .. I'm Just curious[/QUOTE]

    I never actually went to any of the camps, etc. But, FWIW, many USAF personnel in Germany told me they started having bad dreams re: the Holocaust when they slept at night, after they were in Germany for a while.

    :jets18

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    Pictures Taken by me at Auschwitz in 2001
    [IMG]http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h245/photosst/poland/DCP_0802.jpg[/IMG]
    The famous train tracks from the entrance to Birkenau.

    [IMG]http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h245/photosst/poland/DCP_0803.jpg[/IMG]
    A Watchtower. You see how green it is? Was so weird to look at it with full spring in bloom and what would otherwise be beutiful landscape in such an evil place.

    [IMG]http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h245/photosst/poland/DCP_0798.jpg[/IMG]
    An overview of the barracks.

    [IMG]http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h245/photosst/poland/DCP_0799.jpg[/IMG]
    An individual bed. Can you imagine 4 prisoners sleeping on one board?

    [IMG]http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h245/photosst/poland/DCP_0806.jpg[/IMG]
    The ruins of the gas chambers. It was left the way the Russians found it when the Germans destroyed it before evacuating.

    [IMG]http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h245/photosst/poland/DCP_0810.jpg[/IMG]
    A pit of ashes covered with water. Just think how many thousands of people's ashes are in that one pit - and look at the beautiful landscape around it now.
    Last edited by Queens Jet Fan; 11-09-2008 at 11:20 AM.

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    This is a good opporunity for me to ask a question regarding Ann Frank's father, Otto Frank.

    Otto Frank was a commissioned officer in the Imperial German Army in WWI. He also was awarded the Iron Cross, the same award Hitler received.

    Question: Did the Germans have a concentration camp set up for Jewish WWI veterans and their families, where they would be able to escape death?

    I ask this because I was watching a version of 'The Diary of Ann Frank' (there are many, not sure which one I was watching). The scene was where the Green Police are in the Frank's hiding place barking orders to the Franks, et al, to gather what they have because they're being taken away.

    Otto Frank pulls out his German army trunk with LT FRANK written on it. The Green Police officer sees it comments that Frank should have gone to Camp (can't remember the name) where he would have been saved.

    Was this just dramatic license or did this camp actually exist?

    :jets18

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    [QUOTE=AlbanyJet;2848547]This is a good opporunity for me to ask a question regarding Ann Frank's father, Otto Frank.

    Otto Frank was a commissioned officer in the Imperial German Army in WWI. He also was awarded the Iron Cross, the same award Hitler received.

    Question: Did the Germans have a concentration camp set up for Jewish WWI veterans and their families, where they would be able to escape death?

    I ask this because I was watching a version of 'The Diary of Ann Frank' (there are many, not sure which one I was watching). The scene was where the Green Police are in the Frank's hiding place barking orders to the Franks, et al, to gather what they have because they're being taken away.

    Otto Frank pulls out his German army trunk with LT FRANK written on it. The Green Police officer sees it comments that Frank should have gone to Camp (can't remember the name) where he would have been saved.

    Was this just dramatic license or did this camp actually exist?

    :jets18[/QUOTE]

    I don't think this camp ever existed. I know personally (one of them an uncle of mine) about people who thought they would be saved because of service and medals in the German Army in WWI and they were treated like everybody else with no special privileges or camps.

  18. #18
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    Just a bit of advice to anyone who may be thinking of echoing Nationalists Holocaust Denial/Mocking ways.....

    There are two things that will do the almost impossible, and get you an instant ban from me if I see it:

    --Deny the Holocaust Happened and/or mock the Holocaust.

    --Mock the Poles, and specificly the Katyn Massacre, effort in WWII.

    These are non-negotiable, and I will reign down all the fury I have at my disposal to anyone who tries to do either.

    I'm an easygoing guy (my vitriol over Obama of late nonwithstanding) and I am a huge fan of free and open speech, especially in here. But even I have limits and sensitivities, and this is one.

    So do not try me.

  19. #19
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    Who made the post that got deleted?

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    Follow up on story.



    Expert says Auschwitz documents not new

    Nov. 10, 2008
    jta , THE JERUSALEM POST
    Auschwitz documents touted as a sensational find by a German newspaper have been known to historians for years, an expert told JTA.

    Historian Robert Jan van Pelt, an expert on Auschwitz, said he had checked the "so-called 'new' material" on the Web site of Bild, a high-circulation daily, and found that "the drawings that are on their site are all old material, perfectly known" and published by himself and others in the 1990s.

    "If they are original drawings from which blueprints were made, this would be an interesting story," van Pelt, a professor at the University of Waterloo, Ontario, told JTA in a telephone interview. But, he said, there were "tons of such drawings in 300 boxes at Auschwitz ... copies of the originals." Some were found in the former Soviet Union in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and published by van Pelt and others.

    The Bild obtained the drawings of the Auschwitz layout, including gas chambers, and published several images in its November 8 edition marking the 70th anniversary of the Kristallnacht pogrom. The newspaper said the 28 yellowing documents, drawn by a concentration camp prisoner and dated 1941-43, were discovered in a Berlin apartment that was being cleared out.

    Hans-Dieter Kreilkam, the director of the German Federal Archive, told reporters he thought the material was new and that it provided additional proof of the chronology of the so-called "Final Solution." Kreilkam did not rule out the possibility that the person who found the documents sold them to the newspaper.

    Van Pelt expressed dismay that the Bild's claim of a new discovery had been picked up by newspapers around the world.

    "Everyone is repeating the same nonsense, and the deniers are having great fun because it shows how people are gullible," he told JTA.

    Sven Felix Kellerhoff of Bild's sister paper Die Welt told JTA that he knows experts were aware of the plans.

    "But for the people, especially for the readers of Bild, these plans are absolutely new," he said, adding that it is also newsworthy that the original plans are now in Germany.

    One possibly unique aspect of the documents is that SS chief Heinrich Himmler, who oversaw the Nazi extermination program, appears to have marked his initials on one of the pages, in green ink.

    "If these were the initials of Himmler, that would be very interesting," van Pelt agreed. But "it is completely and utterly incomprehensible" that the director of the national archive would "open his mouth on something so sensitive without having consulted the literature." And when the Bild publishes this "without doing any homework, it puts us back 20 years. It's as if we didn't publish these documents already."

    Historian Andreas Nachama, the director of the Topography of Terror memorial in Berlin, told JTA it is well known that prisoners were forced to create architectural drawings and also to construct concentration camp buildings themselves under SS guard.

    [URL="http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1225910081954&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter"]http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1225910081954&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter[/URL]

    This is all very confusing. If this find is stuff that was previously known then was it previously known then also about the date of the final solution being planned prior to what was previously thought? This article doesn't address that - it just states that the plans are not new but what about the date?

    Also, shouldn't Himmler's intitials be investigated for authentication?

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