Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 47

Thread: NYT: Big Three Failing b/c No One Buys thier cars - very interesting read

  1. #21
    All League
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Stuart, FL
    Posts
    4,132
    Bottom Line? I currently own a Chevy Malibu, and aside from an MG I had years ago, I have always had American cars....but no more.

    I just want a simple, reliable, efficient car to get me around. I have no need to try and impress anyone. I don't need to go 120 MPH. I just want a decent car, and my Malibu is a rattletrap that is falling apart...my 2006 Malibu, that is.

    This is the last piece of American Car Company-built CRAP-CARS I waste my money on.

    That is the problem, and the UNions are just as culpable in the decline (and coming Death) of the American auto industry as the big-wigs, ceos and designers.

    Frankly, I could care less anymore, I'm buying Jap from now on. Maybe Korean as well...

  2. #22
    Schluberator & Gadfly ģ
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    26,682
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2903379][IMG]http://neatorama.cachefly.net/images/2008-01/shipment-of-fail.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

    Look at the stern! Now why you pickin' on the Italiano's????

    HEY PAULIE, BIG RAGU, WE GOT A WOP HATER HERE!!!!!! :eek:

  3. #23
    Schluberator & Gadfly ģ
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    26,682
    [QUOTE=Jet_Engine1;2908423]Bottom Line? I currently own a Chevy Malibu, and aside from an MG I had years ago, I have always had American cars....but no more.

    I just want a simple, reliable, efficient car to get me around. I have no need to try and impress anyone. I don't need to go 120 MPH. I just want a decent car, and my Malibu is a rattletrap that is falling apart...my 2006 Malibu, that is.

    This is the last piece of American Car Company-built CRAP-CARS I waste my money on.

    That is the problem, and the UNions are just as culpable in the decline (and coming Death) of the American auto industry as the big-wigs, ceos and designers.

    Frankly, I could care less anymore, I'm buying Jap from now on. Maybe Korean as well...[/QUOTE]

    I can't say I can argue on the cars, but I have a 2004 Ford F150 Super Crew that's been a dynamite truck for me! When I bought it in 2004, it rode better, handled nicer and had better quality interior than all of the competition. On the other hand, we also have a 2004 Toyota Sienna which has been a great minivan, much better than the Plymouth Voyager we had before.

  4. #24
    [QUOTE=chirorob;2905191]It's not really the cost of the cars. It the fact that their cars suck. I've had 5 American made cars. All crap. 1 Toyota, 1 Hyundai. Both run great, no problems.

    If someone wants something, they will get it. How many people making minimum wage own a big TV they have no right to own? If the Big 3 made a really good car, people would spend an extra grand or 2 to buy it. But they don't.[/QUOTE]

    It's a combination - they make cars people don't want, their legacy costs are far too generous and are strangling them, and finally, going forward -- no one is going to want to buy a car from a company that should go bankrupt

    So of course, an efficient and rational government will throw money at this black hole

  5. #25

    Pk

    PK,
    weren't you proud a couple of days ago that you had an "Adobe" degree from Rensselaer? That's why you will always be counting how much the designers, financial dipsh$%ts, etc. make, with such anger and jealousy. Counting other people's money is a sure sign of a loser. The workers in Detroit, fairly or not, will get screwed because they've produced garbage for decades and for generations have been able to have incomes with no accountability. The CEO's have not been there that long because if they don't produce they get fired. And much like ball players who get overpaid if they don't produce. So do CEO's. Simple supply and demand. Much fewer CEO types and assembly worker types. I agree it sucks to be the current workers, because they will have to pay the price for the previous workers failures, but no gravy train lasts forever. If you think this is unfair, become a CEO (not an Adobe one) and change things. It's a free country.

  6. #26
    All League
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Middlesex County, NJ
    Posts
    3,366
    People in this country have finally figured out that buying a new car is the worst investment you can make....I haven't bought a new car since 1994....I now find something a year or two old, clean with 30k or less on the odometer and pay HALF of what a new one costs.

    It's the sucker that pays $40,000.00 for a new vehicle and is financially upside down as soon as he rolls off the lot.

    If the big three sold decent cars at a reasonable price, they would be fine.

    How is it that GM and Toyota can produce close to the same amount of vehicles with Toyota showing profits and GM teetering on bankruptcy?

    IMO, these tough economic times are long overdue in order to level the playing field and allow the consumer to take back the upper hand.

  7. #27
    [QUOTE=crazyeffinjetsfan;2908932]People in this country have finally figured out that buying a new car is the worst investment you can make....I haven't bought a new car since 1994....I now find something a year or two old, clean with 30k or less on the odometer and pay HALF of what a new one costs.

    It's the sucker that pays $40,000.00 for a new vehicle and is financially upside down as soon as he rolls off the lot.

    If the big three sold decent cars at a reasonable price, they would be fine.

    How is it that GM and Toyota can produce close to the same amount of vehicles with Toyota showing profits and GM teetering on bankruptcy?

    IMO, these tough economic times are long overdue in order to level the playing field and allow the consumer to take back the upper hand.[/QUOTE]

    True, people will buy less new cars because they have to. But that means that used cars will cost more in the future.

  8. #28
    The legacy cost are what they promised to their employees who built the company into becoming a huge corporation.

    Too generous? It is sad when an employee who works for a company for the majority of their life and keeps their end of the deal up gets f'd because now that company is being ran into the ground.

    Golden parachutes are never questioned, well only by the union and everyone hates them.

    [QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2908856]It's a combination - they make cars people don't want, their legacy costs are far too generous and are strangling them, and finally, going forward -- no one is going to want to buy a car from a company that should go bankrupt

    So of course, an efficient and rational government will throw money at this black hole[/QUOTE]

  9. #29
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    23,048
    [QUOTE=dermlord;2908918]Counting other people's money is a sure sign of a loser...[/QUOTE]

    So why do "you guys" have such a boner for how much a union autoworker makes? Are you a loser also?

    By the way...American cars are sh*t because of design...not production. If it was because of production, 80% of Jap cars would be sh*t too because...duh...they're made by Americans. You have two breeds of cars, both produced here. So....what's the difference. Woah, upper management. Go figure :rolleyes:

  10. #30

    pk

    I am not counting how much the workers make. The market determines that, and the market is about to say 0. (unfortunately for these people).:(

  11. #31
    [QUOTE=cr726;2908950]The legacy cost are what they promised to their employees who built the company into becoming a huge corporation.

    Too generous? It is sad when an employee who works for a company for the majority of their life and keeps their end of the deal up gets f'd because now that company is being ran into the ground.

    Golden parachutes are never questioned, well only by the union and everyone hates them.[/QUOTE]

    No one is absolving the management, but do you really think the golden parachutes compare to the legacy costs? Just because one works with his hands does not mean he can't be overpaid.

  12. #32
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    In transit
    Posts
    6,192
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2908369]Not many.[/QUOTE]

    Really? People constantly buy things that they don't want/ can't afford. That's why the average American saves nothing. I know people who took home equity lines of credit to buy a car they couldn't afford, people who have no savings, but have more than one plasma TV.

    Americans over-spend all the time, that's why so many have huge credit card debt. It's not the extra $800 dollars that makes the cars un-affordable, it's the fact that they have a history of being crap that makes people not want to buy them.

  13. #33
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2908961]So why do "you guys" have such a boner for how much a union autoworker makes? Are you a loser also?

    By the way...American cars are sh*t because of design...not production. If it was because of production, 80% of Jap cars would be sh*t too because...duh...they're made by Americans. You have two breeds of cars, both produced here. So....what's the difference. Woah, upper management. Go figure :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    Japanese employees are non-unionized. Big difference there. And yet, the world doesn't seem to be ending for them.

    Yes, management sucks. Maybe if the management didn't overpromise their pensions they wouldn't be in such a bind.

  14. #34
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2908961]So why do "you guys" have such a boner for how much a union autoworker makes? Are you a loser also?

    By the way...American cars are sh*t because of design...not production. If it was because of production, 80% of Jap cars would be sh*t too because...duh...they're made by Americans. You have two breeds of cars, both produced here. So....what's the difference. Woah, upper management. Go figure :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    BTW, I think the upper management and designers should end up in the same place.

  15. #35
    [QUOTE=dermlord;2908965]I am not counting how much the workers make. The market determines that, and the market is about to say 0. (unfortunately for these people).:([/QUOTE]

    The thing is, people act like if the Big 3 go under, all of the jobs will go under. That's simply intellectually dishonest. When companies falter, the more profitable ones are in position to take their market share and possibly take over the old company. Will every job be preserved? Of course not - but I don't want to live in a world where we act as if every present job has to be preserved in the future. Economies don't work well under that scenario.

  16. #36
    [QUOTE=chirorob;2908967]Really? People constantly buy things that they don't want/ can't afford. That's why the average American saves nothing. I know people who took home equity lines of credit to buy a car they couldn't afford, people who have no savings, but have more than one plasma TV.

    Americans over-spend all the time, that's why so many have huge credit card debt. It's not the extra $800 dollars that makes the cars un-affordable, it's the fact that they have a history of being crap that makes people not want to buy them.[/QUOTE]

    You don't understand, by simply being middle class or below, you can't be criticized. Ever wonder why so many people who win the lottery end up broke? A fool and his money are soon parted.

  17. #37
    When you look at these legacy costs the majority of the money is going into medical benefits.

    Just like all pensions to people who will never have one they become too good to be true.



    [QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2908966]No one is absolving the management, but do you really think the golden parachutes compare to the legacy costs? Just because one works with his hands does not mean he can't be overpaid.[/QUOTE]

  18. #38
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    23,048
    [QUOTE=chirorob;2908967]Really? People constantly buy things that they don't want/ can't afford. That's why the average American saves nothing. I know people who took home equity lines of credit to buy a car they couldn't afford, people who have no savings, but have more than one plasma TV.

    Americans over-spend all the time, that's why so many have huge credit card debt. It's not the extra $800 dollars that makes the cars un-affordable, it's the fact that they have a history of being crap that makes people not want to buy them.[/QUOTE]

    It's not minimum wage people doing that.

    And once again...the fact that the cars are crap is not the fault of the people on the factory floor. That is a R&D issue...

  19. #39
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    23,048
    [QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2908968]Japanese employees are non-unionized. Big difference there. And yet, the world doesn't seem to be ending for them.

    Yes, management sucks. Maybe if the management didn't overpromise their pensions they wouldn't be in such a bind.[/QUOTE]

    Japanese company owners will fall on their own sword. And American business owner will do everything and anything possible to absolve themselves from blame for anything and wrap it around the necks of the people below them, just ask anyone who worked for Enron and is now a WalMart greeter.

    The reality is that the average UAW member earns about $28 an hour, about $58,000 a year, according to the impartial Center for Automotive Research. What the news media fail to report is that the UAW made significant concessions over the years, including wage cut-backs at Chrysler and a 2007 contract for all three auto makers that created a “second tier” wage level of $14.50–$16.23 per hour ($30,160–$33,758 per year, still below U.S. average wage of $40.405, according to the Census Bureau), reduced benefits, and a retirement plan now administered by the UAW not the Big Three.

    Others who attack organized labor claim that UAW worker earn far more an hour than their counterparts at non-American non-unionized auto manufacturers in the U.S., and that’s a reason why the Big Three are failing. However, the reality is that the average wage at the international automakers is estimated at $24–$25 an hour, less than a $3 differential an hour for UAW first tier workers. Even the most casual observer understands that it costs more to live in the Detroit area than the rural areas where foreign auto makers established their plants.(well, maybe all)

  20. #40
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    In transit
    Posts
    6,192
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2909090]It's not minimum wage people doing that.

    And once again...the fact that the cars are crap is not the fault of the people on the factory floor. That is a R&D issue...[/QUOTE]

    The you know different minimum wage people than I do. I employee people that spend over half their income on a car payment, because they have to have a Lexus. I have had people tell me there is no way they can pay for treatment because of their low paying jobs, yet have enough money to smoke 2 packs a day.

    I have friends that work 60 hours a week, barely pay their mortgage on a little house, have no cash, no savings, but have 2 big TV's a motorcycle, and a SUV.

    Believe it or not, a lot of people with low income have horrible spending habits. That's part of the problem of why they can't advance economically. You seem to hate people with education, or upper management types. 3 years ago, I worked 30 hours a week and made about 200K. I sold that business, and after some setbacks, I'll be right back where I was.

    Do you hate me because I went to grad school, (on a student loan no less), I don't work a "real job" where I get my hands dirty, and I make good money? So many of your posts show disdain for upper management types, or dislike of people who went to continuing education, as if that is a bad thing.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us