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Thread: Big government vs. free-market capitalism: The True Cause of the Financial Meltdown

  1. #1

    Big government vs. free-market capitalism: The True Cause of the Financial Meltdown

    [QUOTE]STUMPTALK: Big government verses free-market capitalism
    By Phil Billington / Chronicle contributor
    [url]http://www.crossville-chronicle.com/opinion/local_story_350195112.html?keyword=secondarystory[/url]

    The 2008 financial meltdown – caused by the Fed as it did in 1929 – has unleashed a fury of central planning mythology. The myth that free-market capitalism is responsible for our current economic crisis is promulgated by people who know practically nothing whatever of rational economic theory or the nature of laissez-faire capitalism. Public schools and the leading universities have failed American students. Their economic education has steeped them entirely in the thoroughly wrong and pernicious doctrines of Marx and Keynes. In claiming to see the existence of laissez faire in the midst of such massive government interference, the very opposite of laissez faire, they are attempting to rewrite reality in order to make it conform to their Marxist preconceptions and view of the world.

    But despite the twisted ideologies of the mercantilist republicans and the leftist command-and-control democrats, free-market capitalism has thrived for 200+ years, building the most prosperous and freest society the world has ever known. Capitalism is an expression of freedom. We owe everything to the free market, all material prosperity, all leisure time, our health and longevity, our huge and growing population. Capitalism and capitalism alone has rescued the human race from degrading poverty, rampant sickness, and early death. It is the natural result of a society wherein individual rights are respected, where businesses, families, and every form of association are permitted to flourish in the absence of coercion, theft, and aggression. The state has created nothing. The market has created everything.

    No wonder people have a dim perception of market mechanics and instead clamor for more laws giving men with guns permission to order people around. Students absorb the doctrines of Marx more in history, philosophy, sociology, and literature classes than in economics classes. Economics classes offer only a pitiful rebuttal of Marxist doctrines and devote almost all of their time to espousing Keynesianism and other anti-capitalistic doctrines.

    The most influential economist of the twentieth century was John Maynard Keynes who swept the world of economics in 1936 with his General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money, his teaching quickly becoming a new, entrenched economic orthodoxy. Lord Keynes was introduced to President Roosevelt in the White House in 1934. Labor Secretary Francis Perkins recorded the meeting. Keynes remarked afterwards to Perkins, “Roosevelt sure doesn’t know much about economics.” He was right. Roosevelt remarked, “Keynes must be a mathematician.” Roosevelt was also right. Keynes had a degree in mathematics, not economics. Yet, Keynesian economics dominated American academia during the Roosevelt and post-war periods.

    Keynes dazzled Washington economists by scrawling long equations on the blackboard. However, professor Milton Friedman of the Chicago school of economics later showed Keynesian math was bogus. Nevertheless, Keynes’ absurdities became popular fare in financial magazines and newspaper columns. i.e., “We no longer worry about a depression, because government knows how to cure it – with deficit spending and built-in stabilizers.”

    The most powerful anti-capitalist movie of the Roosevelt-era was John Steinbeck’s The Grapes of Wrath: “starving but honest folk watched helplessly as growers doused oranges with kerosene in order to decrease supply and thus raise prices.” Brilliant novel, but the reader needs to return to the real world. It was the Roosevelt New Deal that made the depression worse by ordering the intentional destruction of crops and paying farmers not to grow in order to keep agriculture prices high, while hoards of people fought over scraps of food to avoid starvation.

    Apparently nothing has been learned in the last 75 years judging by how much Keynesian-style thinking is spouted on Capitol Hill today. In just the past three months, the Bush regime – with the conspicuous support of Barack Obama – has appropriated the equivalent of half our Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to bail out Wall Street. The Obama economic team yearns for a New Deal II, a massive infrastructure works program, ostensibly to jump-start the economy. It was a disaster for Roosevelt and it won’t work for Obama. When Roosevelt took office in 1933, he introduced an array of work programs. Unemployment slowly dropped from 25 percent to only 14.3 percent by 1937. By 1938, the infrastructure work was complete and all those workers were again out of work. Unemployment shot back up to 19 percent. In 1939, Roosevelt knew his New Deal had failed and turned to war to fix the unemployment problem. Obama has Afghanistan which he pledged to expand.

    Deflation is the worry today as it was in 1929. Copying Roosevelt, the Bush-Obama solution is more inflation (throw money at it). Economist Jörg Hϋlsman points out that deflation, though painful, serves and important social function of cleansing the body politic of its inflationary sins. As economist Peter Schiff declares, we desperately need this recession to reallocate resources and let the crummy service economy crumble. The alternative - more government intervention - will be far worse, a decade-long deep depression. Remember only months ago when speaker Nancy Pelosi wanted to open up the Petroleum Reserve spigot to bring down gasoline prices? Instead, Congress let market forces bring prices down. Instead of government intervention why not let housing, tuition and other prices fall under the force of deflation so people can afford to buy homes and send their kids to college?[/QUOTE]

    Thoughts? Can anyone object to this sound argument?

  2. #2
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    I stopped reading after this:

    [B]Public schools and the leading universities have failed American students. Their economic education has steeped them entirely in the thoroughly wrong and pernicious doctrines of Marx and Keynes. In claiming to see the existence of laissez faire in the midst of such massive government interference, the very opposite of laissez faire, they are attempting to rewrite reality in order to make it conform to their Marxist preconceptions and view of the world.[/B]

    It doesn't matter what anyone says, capitalism can do no wrong in the eyes of most, so I don't know why even have these conversations.

    Its like trying to have real theological debate with a fundamentalist...it doesn't matter what you say, you will be wrong because there is only one correct answer.
    Last edited by CanadaSteve; 12-16-2008 at 05:01 PM.

  3. #3
    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve;2915548]I stopped reading after the first paragraph.

    It doesn't matter what anyone says, capitalism can do no wrong in the eyes of most, so I don't know why even have these conversations.

    Its like trying to have real theological debate with a fundamentalist...it doesn't matter what you say, you will be wrong because there is only one correct answer.[/QUOTE]

    one of the main problems is that nobody can come up with a sound definition of what capitalism is.

    Some may say private ownership of the means of production, but that isn't the case here in America where the money and banking markets are completely rigged by a government-sponsored cartel in the Federal Reserve

    We don't have capitalism in the US and we haven't in over 100 years

  4. #4
    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve;2915548]I stopped reading after this:

    [B]Public schools and the leading universities have failed American students. Their economic education has steeped them entirely in the thoroughly wrong and pernicious doctrines of Marx and Keynes. In claiming to see the existence of laissez faire in the midst of such massive government interference, the very opposite of laissez faire, they are attempting to rewrite reality in order to make it conform to their Marxist preconceptions and view of the world.[/B]

    [B]1. It doesn't matter what anyone says, capitalism can do no wrong in the eyes of most, so I don't know why even have these conversations.[/B]

    [B]Its like trying to have real theological debate with a fundamentalist...it doesn't matter what you say, you will be wrong because there is only one correct answer.[/B][/QUOTE]

    1. Capitalism is the free interaction of individuals is a coercion-less market. I see no wrong in that.

    2. I agree except a religious fundamentalist is not backing his argument up with science, math or his experiences. Economics on the other hand is a proven science, it doesn't matter what policies you think should work or think are morally better than others or feel all warm inside because you voted to enact them... there are right and wrong policies and economic systems... it doesn't matter what you believe.

  5. #5
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    [B]Public schools and the leading universities have failed American students. Their economic education has steeped them entirely in the thoroughly wrong and pernicious doctrines of Marx.[/B]

    Wow, I guess my high school sucked because I can't remember ever taking Communism 101. Seriously, what wacked out right-wing website did you get this from?

  6. #6
    [QUOTE=VincenzoTestaverde;2915600][B]Public schools and the leading universities have failed American students. Their economic education has steeped them entirely in the thoroughly wrong and pernicious doctrines of Marx.[/B]

    Wow, I guess my high school sucked because I can't remember ever taking Communism 101. Seriously, what wacked out right-wing website did you get this from?[/QUOTE]

    you are a fool

  7. #7
    [QUOTE=VincenzoTestaverde;2915600][B]Public schools and the leading universities have failed American students. Their economic education has steeped them entirely in the thoroughly wrong and pernicious doctrines of Marx.[/B]

    [B]Wow, I guess my high school sucked because I can't remember ever taking Communism 101.[/B] Seriously, what wacked out right-wing website did you get this from?[/QUOTE]

    That's because they called it history and economics.

  8. #8
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    problem is, a big cause of our current situation is lack of gov't oversight in the financial sector (predatory lenders, packaging and reselling of mortgages, et al)

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    [QUOTE=jefethegreat;2915596]1. Capitalism is the free interaction of individuals is a coercion-less market. I see no wrong in that.

    2. I agree except a religious fundamentalist is not backing his argument up with science, math or his experiences. Economics on the other hand is a proven science, it doesn't matter what policies you think should work or think are morally better than others or feel all warm inside because you voted to enact them... there are right and wrong policies and economic systems... it doesn't matter what you believe.[/QUOTE]

    a) Yeah, and that has really worked having a coercion-less market.

    b) um, economics is not provable by science....it is a pseudo-field of study a best.

    c) Right and wrong economic policies? Okay...

  10. #10
    [QUOTE=isired;2916215]problem is, a big cause of our current situation is lack of gov't oversight in the financial sector (predatory lenders, packaging and reselling of mortgages, et al)[/QUOTE]

    what we need to be regulating is the Federal Reserve, which is an organized cartel of private banks

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    [QUOTE=JetsCrazey;2916711]what we need to be regulating is the Federal Reserve, which is an organized cartel of private banks[/QUOTE]

    Never gonna happen. You seem to think the same way I do regarding the Fed, have you seen Aaron Russo's interviews on youtube? If not, check them out. It's like learning the Matrix exists........

  12. #12
    [QUOTE=Vilma;2916725]You seem to think the same way I do regarding the Fed, have you seen Aaron Russo's interviews on youtube? If not, check them out. It's like learning the Matrix exists........[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, I've seen the one where he talks about his talks with a member of the Rockefeller family. very scary. Many people don't realize in the early 20th century the govt was taken over by the Rockefellers and other bankers, and their influence still pervades both parties

  13. #13
    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve;2916617]a) Yeah, and that has really worked having a coercion-less market.

    b) um, economics is not provable by science....it is a pseudo-field of study a best.

    c) Right and wrong economic policies? Okay...[/QUOTE]

    a) we haven't had a coercion-less market in this society since the early 1900s... so don't point to this system (or even the system as far back as 1913) as capitalism.. it isn't and by saying its even close is a bald-face lie. And oh yeah those socialist markets have really worked well themselves right? Wrong.

    b)economics is a science... its just too young of a field for their to be consciences amongst the experts. Its like we are in the mid-eighteenth century and you still believe leeching a person of their blood is making them better... it doesn't work, its the wrong cure.

    c)at least we agree on that.

  14. #14
    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve;2915548]I stopped reading after this:

    [B]Public schools and the leading universities have failed American students. Their economic education has steeped them entirely in the thoroughly wrong and pernicious doctrines of Marx and Keynes. In claiming to see the existence of laissez faire in the midst of such massive government interference, the very opposite of laissez faire, they are attempting to rewrite reality in order to make it conform to their Marxist preconceptions and view of the world.[/B]

    It doesn't matter what anyone says, capitalism can do no wrong in the eyes of most, so I don't know why even have these conversations.

    Its like trying to have real theological debate with a fundamentalist...it doesn't matter what you say, you will be wrong because there is only one correct answer.[/QUOTE]

    Why is Keynes economic textbook Gospel? Ask Japan how much government intervention helped their economy.

  15. #15
    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve;2916617]a) Yeah, and that has really worked having a coercion-less market.

    b) um, economics is not provable by science....it is a pseudo-field of study a best.

    c) Right and wrong economic policies? Okay...[/QUOTE]

    You prefer a coerced market? Really?

    Is the current situation not a TREMENDOUS example that the government cannot make something valuable no matter how hard they try?

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2917749]You prefer a coerced market? Really?

    Is the current situation not a TREMENDOUS example that the government cannot make something valuable no matter how hard they try?[/QUOTE]

    Never mind guys, I'm tired of talking about economics here...you guys don't see it, so why bother?

    And for the record, I never said I wanted a coerced market...

  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=BrooklynBound;2917748]Why is Keynes economic textbook Gospel? Ask Japan how much government intervention helped their economy.[/QUOTE]

    If you could just point out where I mentioned that Keynes economic textbook is Gospel, that would be great.

    And, I wouldn't be saying much of the Japanese economy, compared to the American one, just saying....

  18. #18
    Normally contribute to threads like this but am on holiday - might do so when I return home.

  19. #19
    [QUOTE=Black Death;2918137]Normally contribute to threads like this but am on holiday - might do so when I return home.[/QUOTE]

    please we need some more comments on threads like this one.

  20. #20
    [QUOTE=JetsCrazey;2916744]Yeah, I've seen the one where he talks about his talks with a member of the Rockefeller family. very scary. Many people don't realize in the early 20th century the govt was taken over by the Rockefellers and other bankers, and their influence still pervades both parties[/QUOTE]


    But "Change" is a-comin'

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