I also agree with nuu in this thread that the anti-gay movement will literally die out sooner rather than later. It's the older generation that is mostly hanging on to old school ways, and even they are starting to become more tolerant to it. Pop culture is all about the gays, it's very en vogue. Look at all those queer guys telling us straight guys how to dress on the televizzle.
Last edited by JetsFan2012; 12-18-2008 at 08:06 PM.
So tell me Bernie, do you support the Death Penalty for Homosexuality?
Uh oh, I may be screwed here, being both a fornicator and (in my youth) a drunkard. I wonder, should I be put to death like the gays?
But no question, you certainly brought the Biblical texts to the debate Bernie, thanks for the response.
Individuals? No sir, individuals have EVERY right to descriminate against Gays IMO.
My position is intellectually consitent here, the State does not have a right to descriminate outside enforcement of the Law. Individuals, based on choice of those being descriminated against, do have the right IMO.
I was responding to your post that said gay civil rights are not on the same level as racial civil rights. Since the government has no real authority to restrict civil rights to either, they are on the same level.
If the government discriminated against those who play badminton, it would be just as wrong. Playing badminton is a choice, sure, but it still doesn't mean the government has the authority to deny them equal rights.
You seem to be suggesting that same-sex attraction is somehow merely a decision, which would imply you think all sex is just a matter of learned behavior. I personally don't think that's true at all. I think there's room for some marginal adjustment, but each of has limits in what works for us.
The Zen masters used to say: "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!" I love those Zen-guys. They understood that true enlightenment has nothing to do with superstition, worshiping empty idols, or being a moral drone. That takes absolutely no spiritual effort at all. Zero.
So lesbians are ok unless they buttsex with a strapon? Great!
But I know it also has not been proven to be biological either. And I default to science, the second they prove it is a genetic issue, I would mentally consider their plight the same as that of Black Americans in the Civil Rights Movement. Till then, sorry, I'll just have to support them without giving them equal martyrdom in my own viewpoint.
Of course in some cases sexual attraction is a choice.You seem to be suggesting that same-sex attraction is somehow merely a decision, which would imply you think all sex is just a matter of learned behavior. I personally don't think that's true at all. I think there's room for some marginal adjustment, but each of has limits in what works for us.
But frankly, what you or I "think" is irrelevant. What science can prove is all that matters, and in this case, they cannot and have not proven homosexuality to be genetic. For me, that makes their cause one of freedom of choice, not one of civil rights a la Blacks.
And I hate to keep reminding folks, but it's not like I don't support gay rights. I just don;t see it in the same light as being black, where there is no question (in science) that there is no choice involved.
Also, at what point in your life did you choose to be straight (or gay, if you are) and how did you go about making that decision? Did you spend a lot of time debating the pros and cons of being stright or gay?
BTW, there is more than just anectodal evidence to support that homosexuality is not a "choice" but rather biologic:
1. Dr. Swaab's post-mortem examination of homosexual males' brains showed that a portion of the hypothalamus of the brain was structurally different than a heterosexual brain. The hypothalamus is the portion of the human brain directly related to sexual drive and function. In the homosexual brains examined, a small portion of the hypothalamus, termed the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), was found to be twice the size of its heterosexual counterpart. Work is still being done to determine the significance of this.
2. Similar types of studies found the anterior commissure of the hypothalamus was also significantly larger in the homosexual subjects than that of the heterosexuals..more work is being done
3. Simon Levay also did studies on the hypothalamus in homosexuals showing that the 3rd interstitial notch of the anterior hypothalamus was two to three times smaller in homosexual men then in heterosexual men. His study concluded that "homosexual and heterosexual men differ in the central neuronal mechanisms that control sexual behavior". These differences in the hypothalamus are not a product of the environment or upbringing but rather prenatal cerebral development and structural differentiation.
4. Neuroendocrine studies on rats showed that prenatal early high exosures to androgens female rats become masculanized and attracted to other female rats. Male rats who received deficient levels of androgen became submissive in matters of sexual drive and reproduction and were willing to receive the sexual act of the other male rats.
5. Twin studies have shown that the more closely genetically linked a pair is, the more likely they both are to exhibit gay or straight tendencies.
6. Dean Hamers studies on human DNA of gay men found a remarkable concordance for 5 genetic markers on section of the X-Chromosome called Xq28. This is the first "gay gene" study to have been validated by outside scientists.
So this is some pretty strong evidence to suggest homosexuality is mmore biological thhan "choice" . I await to see the evidence you present to support the notion that its "choice"
Homosexual Behavior Largely Shaped By Genetics And Random Environmental Factors
ScienceDaily (June 30, 2008) — Homosexual behaviour is largely shaped by genetics and random environmental factors, according to findings from the world's largest study of twins.
Writing in the scientific journal Archives of Sexual Behavior, researchers from Queen Mary's School of Biological and Chemical Sciences, and Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm report that genetics and environmental factors (which are specific to an individual, and may include biological processes such as different hormone exposure in the womb), are important determinants of homosexual behaviour.
Dr Qazi Rahman, study co-author and a leading scientist on human sexual orientation, explains: "This study puts cold water on any concerns that we are looking for a single 'gay gene' or a single environmental variable which could be used to 'select out' homosexuality - the factors which influence sexual orientation are complex. And we are not simply talking about homosexuality here - heterosexual behaviour is also influenced by a mixture of genetic and environmental factors.
The team led by Dr Niklas Långström at Karolinska Institutet conducted the first truly population-based survey of all adult (20-47 years old) twins in Sweden. Studies of identical twins and non-identical, or fraternal, twins are often used to untangle the genetic and environmental factors responsible for a trait. While identical twins share all of their genes and their entire environment, fraternal twins share only half of their genes and their entire environment. Therefore, greater similarity in a trait between identical twins compared to fraternal twins shows that genetic factors are partly responsible for the trait.
This study looked at 3,826 same-gender twin pairs (7,652 individuals), who were asked about the total numbers of opposite sex and same sex partners they had ever had. The findings showed that 35 per cent of the differences between men in same-sex behaviour (that is, that some men have no same sex partners, and some have one or more) is accounted for by genetics.
Rahman explains: "Overall, genetics accounted for around 35 per cent of the differences between men in homosexual behaviour and other individual-specific environmental factors (that is, not societal attitudes, family or parenting which are shared by twins) accounted for around 64 per cent. In other words, men become gay or straight because of different developmental pathways, not just one pathway."
For women, genetics explained roughly 18 per cent of the variation in same-sex behaviour, non-shared environment roughly 64 per cent and shared factors, or the family environment, explained 16 per cent.
The study shows that genetic influences are important but modest, and that non-shared environmental factors, which may include factors operating during foetal development, dominate. Importantly, heredity had roughly the same influence as shared environmental factors in women, whereas the latter had no impact on sexual behaviour in men.
Dr Rahman adds: "The study is not without its limitations - we used a behavioural measure of sexual orientation which might be ok to use for men (men's psychological orientation, sexual behaviour, and sexual responses are highly related) but less so for women (who show a clearer separation between these elements of sexuality). Despite this, our study provides the most unbiased estimates presented so far of genetic and non-genetic contributions to sexual orientation."
Adapted from materials provided by Queen Mary, University of London, via EurekAlert!, a service of AAAS.
I have quite the faith in science, and I am sure if the cause of Homosexuality IS genetic, then they will find it. and I am sure they will find a cure for it as well (and won't THAT be a big issue when it happens, eh?)
Till science finds it, as I said, I will continue to support gay rights, but I will not insult (as I see it) African Americans by claiming the plight of gays is anything similar to the plight of blacks in America.
I also will laugh at anyone who claims "all" homsexuals are geentic without any proof of that fact, when I think it's pretty apparent that choice IS involved in plenty of cases (even in the relatively limited group I know there are "gays" who engage in that activity by choice, which they are happy to state).
But if you all think they are the same, good for you. I'm not black, nor gay, so I won't be insulted either way.
Now I agree with you completely that the issue is not equivalent to race, since homosexuality can be suppressed or closeted and race cannot. But when both conditions are presented to a society, the key issue is how that society deals with the issue. There are parallels between anti-semitism and gay-bigotry. In both cases, there is a witch-hunt to find the "corrupters" and stamp them out, much as Sackdance has so "eloquently" outlined. So I'm not so sure it really matters whether some is gay by biology or choice. The question is what harm is it inflicting on society? Rabid prosyletizing Christians will inevitably see anything that is not consistent with their religion as "evil" or "an abomination." Thank god we have a society that keeps those people at bay. Pogroms are not pretty.