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Thread: Jets were never legit Super Bowl Contender

  1. #21
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    What's the point of this thread? We shouldn't be upset b/c we had lower expectations in Aug than in Nov? How is that relevant at all? :confused:

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=JamaicanJetFan;2930080]Your problem is that you are confusing "dynasty contender" with "superbowl contender"[/QUOTE]

    the Jets were neither. and Rut im not saying Mangini is or isn't building a dynasty.

    What i am saying is if we all want to fire this man, then we thought he did a BAD job - the quesiton begs what would have been considered a GOOD job?

    if the answer is 13-3 or 14-2 then it's not really a legit comparison. We are holding mangini to an impossible standard because *gasp* this team was never THAT good. they were good, they teased us with great ness but they were never great.

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2930083]fancy stats, but dude they were 10-6 last year. 10-6 can become 13-3 or 14-2. 4-12 doesn't become 13-3 or 14-2 - it never does.[/QUOTE]

    Really? I thought you said the only real SB contenders were those that were SB contenders for several years. By that logic, Tennessee shouldn't be any more of a contender than us considering their preceding seasons in comparison to ours.

    Here's your problem. You think everyone else thinks that someone like Cowher would fix everything, but that's not the case. You're happy with keeping someone who isn't qualified for the job. We are not. If we're going to be rehiring, we'd like the most qualified candidate, which in this case is Cowher. The name is irrelevant in regards to the principle, which you fail to grasp. Whether it's the fact that you're trying to argue that either the first aspect isn't worth pursuing, or even that the second point isn't correct, both are completely illogical. The reason it's insulting is because you're trying to make both points with nothing of substance to back up any of your arguments by either lying or making up cliches that don't exist. Simple as that.

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2930089]the Jets were neither. and Rut im not saying Mangini is or isn't building a dynasty.

    What i am saying is if we all want to fire this man, then we thought he did a BAD job - the quesiton begs what would have been considered a GOOD job?

    if the answer is 13-3 or 14-2 then it's not really a legit comparison. We are holding mangini to an impossible standard because *gasp* this team was never THAT good. they were good, they teased us with great ness but they were never great.[/QUOTE]


    To lose to Oakland AND Seattle AND San Francisco is just inexcusable. I don't care what the preseason or midseason expectations are/were. THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE COACHING.

  5. #25
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    So the fans expectations matter more in this alternative logic world than the actual results on the field?

    This 'theory' is mental masturbation at it's best.

  6. #26
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    When you beat the #1 team in the conference that is undefeated at the time. Look at a schedule of teams well below .500 and a 1 game lead in your own division. This is after Week 11 in the NFL.

    What would one expect from there? 4-1? 3-2? Denver at home (worst pass defense at the time, one of the worst rushing defenses at the time). Niners away (4 wins). Bills at home (4 wins, no QB). Seahawks away (3 win team). We can't win 2 of these games? Miami won 7 games against these teams!!!

    Was it a Super Bowl team? Who knows. But it should have been AFC East with a bye. And when you get a bye, you're 50/50 to get to the Superbowl. That's the odds history.

    So, there was a lot expected when they got to 8-3. It was 8-3 with a downhill path.
    Last edited by JetsSpinner; 12-23-2008 at 04:55 PM.

  7. #27
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    My expectations didnt change with Favre. I said he would give us a chance to win in a few places that maybe Chad couldnt win(for instance before the year began I thought Chad was a loss in Seattle where Favre could be a win), but that this should have been an 11 win team that made the wildcard round. I think the team has clearly underperformed. Do you get style points for blowing teams out? No, but the Jets allowed some really bad football teams to just about win some games they had no business being in. Those things happen every now and then, but it just seemed more consistent with our team and it should not have been.

    And certainly peoples expectations change as time goes on. When you are 8-3 and you have a ton of easy games on the schedule things should not just balance out and you should lose 4 of your last 5 because going into the year you just assumed you were a 9 win team. Sadly I think that is the attitude that killed the Jets in the end. Hey everyone thought we would win 8 or 9 this year and we did. Mission accomplished. The Jets were favored to have won 11 games going into this weekend. They are two off the pace. That is not living up to expectations.

    As for teams turning it around in 1 year I think you are way off. New England did it. St Louis did it. Chicago wasnt very good before their trip were they? The Giants were .500? Thats not to say I expected a Super Bowl for the team because I did not, but teams dont need years of excellence to make a run. If that is really the case than the Jets front office did a horrible job by bringing in the Faneca types who are closer to the end than the beginning.

    There are two things you need in todays NFL to reach that 11-12 win plateau consistently in the NFL. Great coaching and/or great quarterbacks. Its a coach and QB driven league. Belichick proved the kind of coach he is working with Matt Cassel this year. We had an average QB and finished below average as far as I am concerned. That should fall on Mangini.

  8. #28
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    I think that with better coaching this team goes 13-3 or 12-4. After the Titans game, the Jets were favored in every game for the rest of the season. Assuming they are favored against the Dolphins. They have lost 3 of 4 games in which they were favorites and the one they pulled out was by a miracle of stupidity from the other coach.

    I admit that before the season if the Jets won 9 or 10 games I would have been happy, but once they beat New England and Tennessee, there is no way I would have been happy with a 2-3 or 1-4 record in their last 5, which is exactly what they are looking at now.

    I am a believer in putting in a system and building through the draft and having patience with coaches. Mangini was given so much to work with this year, and the results are not what we had hoped for.

    I'm undecided as to whether I want him out or not, but I'm leaning towards a change.

    I'm still dumbfounded at the change in the team after the Tennessee game. For the first 11 games of the year, the Jets had an extremely solid run defense and a shaky pass defense. After the Tennessee game, stopping the run was over and the pass defense got even worse.

    The Jets can still run the ball on offense, which should be helpful, but they keep shooting themselves in the foot and have been abysmal on 3rd down.

    I just don't know what happened, but it sure sucks.

  9. #29
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2930035]the statement on this board for the most Part is that Eric Mangini isn't a good coach, he did a poor job and deserves to be fired.

    so let's assume that's true.

    When we are saying Mangini screwed up, he did a poor job, the implication is that a good job gets them a couple more wins. Right?

    So If they had a different coach, a better motivator (like Herm lol) would this be a 13 or 14 win team?

    in other words was this 2008 Jets ever a [b]REAL Super Bowl contender?[/b]

    if you answer yes, than maybe Mangini deserves to go.

    If we are saying Mangini did a bad job that means a good job gets this team to 13 or 14 wins, i just don't see that to be the case.

    my take - the 2008 Jets are, even with Favre and Jenkins, a 9 or 10 win team max. they might win this week, they might not, but to expect more is unrealistic. the difference between this team and NE and MIA is negligable, NONE of these teams are real Super Bowl contenders, not this season. NE could have been but Brady injury took care of that. if the Jets and Pats win this weekend we are talking about two 11-5 teams, 1 10-6 team and maybe 2 of em playing in the wild card round. no first round byes... no super hot team with franchise caliber QB (like the Giants). None of these teams were legit.

    the difference is this year they won several games they should have lost (@NE, @ TEN) and lost several games they should have won (@SEA, @OAK)... but the end result is 4-12 becomes a 9 or 10 win team... just like we thought they would.

    4-12 doesn't become 13-3 or 14-2... to become a REAL super bowl contender you need more than a couple hot weeks, you need to be a winning/playoff caliber team for several years.

    Now Im not starting this thread to "defend" Mangini, my point is to ask the crowd, what were your expectations, and were they realistic? Don't focus on the fact they were 8-3 at a given point in time because Super Bowl contenders don't get created mid-season by the fans and the media. They establish themselves over years.[/QUOTE]

    Bit, I like the post. And looking at it from that perspective, your right. I wouldnt call the Jets a super bowl contender, even with Farve. Before the season started we had question marks at RVB opposite Revis, and if Pace/Thomas and Jenkins could gel together. We also had questions at the slot spot were the platoning Smith, Stuckley and Clowney all took turns but havent developed into anything but 5 slot WR's. My number one question though has to be at the QB position. When you see teams develop QB's like Saun Hill in SF, and Cassel in NE at low end draft slots, and the Jets decision to trade Pennington and not develop Clemons will come back to haunt them. But still, the QB play is paramount in this league, and obviously our team made a mistake with Farve. Without looking at if we still make it to the playoffs, I have to be honest as a Jet fan and say I would have rather made a 8-9 win team with Clemons than with Farve with the notion that with Clemons he's going to get better - and he can run. At this point, I'm dissapointed as a Jet fan. Same ol'd story.

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=JamaicanJetFan;2930094]To lose to Oakland AND Seattle AND San Francisco is just inexcusable. I don't care what the preseason or midseason expectations are/were. THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE COACHING.[/QUOTE]

    my guess is if they lose to Ten and beat Oakland that's not acceptable coaching either. Jets fans believe 9 or 10 wins is mediocrity and accepting mediocrity isn't on the menu in New York. I understand all that.

    but this team overperformed for a couple weeks, now they are back to average or below average and people want to fire the coach.

    as for perceptions - if the Jets weren't a SB contender in August it's wishful thinking to believe they BECAME one in the middle of the year. And it's further wishful thinking to believe a Bill Cowher would have carried that momentum to a Super Bowl.

    If they weren't a real contender it's not a bad (Read: fire-able) job by Mangini if they don't actually contend.

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=Jason423;2930099]The Jets were favored to have won 11 games going into this weekend. They are two off the pace. That is not living up to expectations.[/QUOTE]

    ok I can agree with all of your post - my follow question, is being favored to win 11 but only winning 9 or 10 a fireable offense? if the coach is a first time coach with theoretical upside to improve? I just don't know...

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2930105]my guess is if they lose to Ten and beat Oakland that's not acceptable coaching either. Jets fans believe 9 or 10 wins is mediocrity and accepting mediocrity isn't on the menu in New York. I understand all that.

    but this team overperformed for a couple weeks, now they are back to average or below average and people want to fire the coach.

    as for perceptions - if the Jets weren't a SB contender in August it's wishful thinking to believe they BECAME one in the middle of the year. And it's further wishful thinking to believe a Bill Cowher would have carried that momentum to a Super Bowl.

    If they weren't a real contender it's not a bad (Read: fire-able) job by Mangini if they don't actually contend.[/QUOTE] The Jets brought in 140mm of talent and a HOF QB to contend. They showed they could and then **** the bed.....Comes down to coaching or lack thereof.

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;2930074]Thanks Mr. Sees-the-Future-but-Doesn't-Share.

    Nice of you to tell us this now....well after the fact. Reminds me of another poster....[/QUOTE]

    I LOL'd.

    bit did a good job here, imo

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2930115]ok I can agree with all of your post - my follow question, is being favored to win 11 but only winning 9 or 10 a fireable offense? if the coach is a first time coach with theoretical upside to improve? I just don't know...[/QUOTE]

    He should be fired for losing 4 of the last 5. I'm firing him for playing 7 games against .500 teams and below and winning 2 of them. Miami won 7 of those games and NE 6 of them.

    And if he does win the last game, he is a .500 coach for his career. I don't have a theory. I see mediocre and expect better.

  15. #35
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    The difference in games won is not as big as 4-12 vs 9 or 10, last year we had a tough sched, this year is very easy and we still lost against easy teams. The Jets had as favourable of a sched as they are going to get and the galling part is that we beat alot of the tough teams but coughed up a hair ball when it counted most.

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2930069]you are citing exceptions. I cited the rule.

    all of the great dynasties, from Lombardi's Packers through to Noll's Steelers, to Walsh's 49ers, to Parcells Giants, to Johnson's Cowboys started modestly, built momentum and peaked roughly 5-7 years after the great draft picks. LT was drafted in 1982... Parcells won in 1986 and 1990.

    these instant turnarounds you post are the exception and by the way my original post asked were the Jets LEGIT contenders - I would argue the Pats, Rams, Ravens were not considered Legit contenders going into their year. They became contenders but the Jets never really did. It's possible but not probable.

    My point is our expectations may have fluctuated wildly but in the end this team was who we thought they were.[/QUOTE]

    You're "rules" are OBSOLETE. 1990 is PREHISTORY in the NFL. Teams go from Crap to Division Winner EVERY YEAR in this modern NFL.

    YOu can't even mention "Lombardis Packers" or the Cowboys of the early '90s in a discussion of the Modern NFL. Aside from the Patriots, there ARE NO DYNASTIES. The Colts are good, and have been for a few years, but they aren't a "dynasty". Heck, even with the great Peyton Manning, Jim Mora got fired.

    This is the era of the "Quick Change NFL". You get the right QB and the right coach, and BAM - Contender. The Rams, Ravens, Bucs, Steelers, Giants...they all demonstrate this. Consistent? Somewhat. But not Dynasties. Free Agency means its up to COACHES to get more out of the role players you fill your roster out of around your core and QB.



    The point IS, you can't sit around HOPING you have the "Right Guy" that will get better with time, the problem with Mangini is he seems unable to learn from his mistakes or even RECOGNIZE them....the Dolphins got better and better as the season went on...did the Jets? No. They regressed. Thats coaching.

    Did the Jets show any consistency throughout the year? No. Thats Coaching.

    Eric Mangini is NOT the guy. This team WAS WHAT ITS RECORD SAID IT WAS: AN 8 - 3 TEAM. With a lead in the Division and a playoff berth all but assured.

    Then the team went into the tank. Uninspired. Unemotional. Lifeless.

    No Fire. No Fight.

    Just like the Coach.

    Bring in a Coach that can make these players FIGHT for him...and don't give us that "Professional Players don't need motivation" crap. Number one, You don't know JACK about what makes these guys tick

    And Two, for the most part, these are young men. They NEED to be led. Sure they get paid a lot, but they're still young guys that need to be riled up to go out and kick ass. Not every guy is LT or Polamalu, thats why its the Coaches JOB to get 'em in the right mindset.

    Thats where you can bring Parcells, Lombardi, Walsh, Bellicheck, Johnson, and Noll into the conversation.

    Xs and Os weren't why THOSE MEN were GREAT coaches....it was because they were LEADERS. Because THOSE were guys that could get a High Paid NFL Player to RUN THROUGH A GODDAMNED WALL for him.
    They were leaders that players BELIEVED in. THATS what made their "Systems" great. Not the playbook, but the BELIEF players had in the guys calling the plays.

    Mangini is NOT one of those guys.

    Cowher IS.

    Get Cowher, and let HIM bring in the QB of the FUTURE.

    Otherwise, this franchise is just marking time. As usual

  17. #37
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    Why are you throwing 13, 14 wins out there, and why are you throwing Super Bowl out there anyway? Mangini gets a pass for this meltdown b/c we weren't expected to be an elite team. That's just nonsense! Have you seen this team play the last 4 weeks?

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2930105]as for perceptions - if the Jets weren't a SB contender in August it's wishful thinking to believe they BECAME one in the middle of the year. And it's further wishful thinking to believe a Bill Cowher would have carried that momentum to a Super Bowl.[/QUOTE]

    What are you talking about? So teams (and expectations) don't develop as the season goes on? What about the Giants last year and the Steelers in 2006? They were not SB contenders before the season began yet they somehow won it. Expectations and performance levels are not static.

  19. #39
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    Whether the Jets were a legit contender or not can never be known because it has become clear that we don't have a legitimate contender coaching staff. Many teams become legitimate contenders during and through the season (see last years Giants) because the coaching staff continues to find ways to utilize and maximize the talent that is available and modify 'systems' to do so. Not continually try and shoe-horn square pegs of talent into a round hole of a system.

    Better than average coaches create and modify systems.

    Weak ones just use them.
    Last edited by Piper; 12-24-2008 at 09:15 AM.

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2930105]
    as for perceptions - if the Jets weren't a SB contender in August it's wishful thinking to believe they BECAME one in the middle of the year. And it's further wishful thinking to believe a Bill Cowher would have carried that momentum to a Super Bowl.
    [/QUOTE]

    Simple question:

    After the Tennessee game, did YOU think the Jets were one of three or four teams that would likely represent the AFC in the Superbowl?

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