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Thread: Jets were never legit Super Bowl Contender

  1. #41
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    Part of me wants to believe that if we can somehow capture a playoff berth we can recapture that magic we had in our wins over the patriots and titans and use it for an improbably super bowl run...then I remembered 2 things....

    We are coached by Eric Mangini....

    and we are the NEW YORK J-E-T-S

  2. #42
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    [quote=bitonti;2930035]the statement on this board for the most Part is that Eric Mangini isn't a good coach, he did a poor job and deserves to be fired.

    so let's assume that's true.

    When we are saying Mangini screwed up, he did a poor job, the implication is that a good job gets them a couple more wins. Right?

    So If they had a different coach, a better motivator (like Herm lol) would this be a 13 or 14 win team?

    in other words was this 2008 Jets ever a [B]REAL Super Bowl contender?[/B]

    if you answer yes, than maybe Mangini deserves to go.

    If we are saying Mangini did a bad job that means a good job gets this team to 13 or 14 wins, i just don't see that to be the case.

    my take - the 2008 Jets are, even with Favre and Jenkins, a 9 or 10 win team max. they might win this week, they might not, but to expect more is unrealistic. the difference between this team and NE and MIA is negligable, NONE of these teams are real Super Bowl contenders, not this season. NE could have been but Brady injury took care of that. if the Jets and Pats win this weekend we are talking about two 11-5 teams, 1 10-6 team and maybe 2 of em playing in the wild card round. no first round byes... no super hot team with franchise caliber QB (like the Giants). None of these teams were legit.

    the difference is this year they won several games they should have lost (@NE, @ TEN) and lost several games they should have won (@SEA, @OAK)... but the end result is 4-12 becomes a 9 or 10 win team... just like we thought they would.

    4-12 doesn't become 13-3 or 14-2... to become a REAL super bowl contender you need more than a couple hot weeks, you need to be a winning/playoff caliber team for several years.

    Now Im not starting this thread to "defend" Mangini, my point is to ask the crowd, what were your expectations, and were they realistic? Don't focus on the fact they were 8-3 at a given point in time because Super Bowl contenders don't get created mid-season by the fans and the media. They establish themselves over years.[/quote]

    Good post bit, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

    For a moment, forget our record last season and this season. The thing that is infuriating is the UNREALIZED POTENTIAL. Were the Jets a superbowl caliber team? Maybe, maybe not. BUT, they are a talented team that is under performing. That is what bothers me.

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=Beerfish;2930082]Winning on the road against the Pats in a game that they could have folded after the tieing td, winning on the road against the best team in the league at the time and an 8-3 record made them super bowl contenders. Favourites? No, but they showed enough in run stopping, offense and special teams to that point to indicate they had a shot.

    As for Mangini, it's not just about blowing the game to most likely not make the playoffs, it is about the way the team was coached, the utter failure to make adjustments. Totally ignoring major faults in the team because we were still winning and topped off by some very bad in game coaching decisions when it counted most.

    I have been a backer of Mangini the last two years solidly but he lost me this year, not because of the record, or gassing it late in the year but because his coaching has regressed badly. Once he got some talent all aggression left the team on defense and he never corrected it.

    I have no doubt at all that he will be back for another year or two but my confidence in him as a coach has gone from 'He is learning as a new guy he shows enough to be a good coach some day' to 'He has no clue what the problems are, he has no clue how to fix them, he is very rigid and unadaptable.'[/QUOTE]



    You aren't giving Mangini any credit for the state of the team at 8-3! If you thought they were a legit SB contender then, he had to have alot to do with that! Bottom line he had the team playing like an SB contender and it all collapsed. I can't take too many more collapses, but mangini can learn from this and deliver. I'd rather see that than another coach come in and we have to start over.

  4. #44
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    I'm not giving Mangini credit for those wins either. PLAYERS win big games. COACHES win the others. We didn't earn a win (earn aka not KC and Arizona) in a single game without something other than a simple win on the line, cept maybe the Rams game. The boys are who got up for Buffalo, NE, Tenn etc. A coaches biggest responsibility is keeping the team from complacency. We got complacent for a couple of weeks after Tenn. Now, we just plain suck. That's what follows complacency.

    I still maintain that Eric Mangini is the equivalent of Barry Switzer in his Dallas run. Some people here weren't familiar with that analogy when I said it before but it is true. If you recall, when Jimmie Johnson bailed late for the $$$ in Miami, Switzer was basically the best available body. He rode the coat tails of the star studded team of Emmit Smith, Troy Aikman, Lary Allen, Leon Lett, Michael Irvin, etc...straight to the Superbowl in that first post-Jimmie Johnson year. The following year, they went 6 - 10 and almost got Troy Aikman killed by going out there asleep like our team does. Troy ultimately retired. Brett may do the same thing and it will be because of the ****storm he's in, not his ability.

  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2930115]ok I can agree with all of your post - my follow question, is being favored to win 11 but only winning 9 or 10 a fireable offense? if the coach is a first time coach with theoretical upside to improve? I just don't know...[/QUOTE]

    Oh I agree that Im not 100% sure if its fireable or not. Im high on emotions right now and just disgusted with what has happened these last few weeks. I know there are some positives to Mangini. Always winning off the bye. Beating better teams. What I hate though is the fact that he does not seem to adapt and adjust. I know everyone was all over Chad and the offensive line last year, but I didnt think Mangini did a very good job. I thought there were alot of bad decisions and bad gameplans all year. I dont think there was much in the way of improvement this year. We still have issues in the 2nd half of football games. We still have issues once you get past the scripted part of the game. Its very much a play down to the competition/try not to lose philosophy. I dont think its any different than Herm other than the fact that Herm beats garbage and has no chance to beat a good team. If somehow we made the playoffs I think Mangini could win 2 games.

    I will say this. If the Jets lose 30-3 this Sunday he has to go. This has been the sign of a team that has quit which was very different than what we saw last season. Once a team quits on a coach I dont think you can get the team back. There is no need to get into a spot where you are firing a coach 5 games into the 2009 season.

  6. #46
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    After the Tennessee Game the Jets were definitely contenders for the dance.

    We were playing like one of the top 5 teams in the league.

    However, success in this league, over seasons and in games, is about mastering momentum.

    Momentum is a force to be summoned, and then mastered and applied.

    When it can be controlled, it is like a lever that is applied to the game, to other teams. It is confidence manifest, superiority demonstrated, or the art of being able to pull out close ones - resilience and perseverence, coolness in the clutch.

    The scary thing about this season is that this team actually summoned incredible momentum. Incredibile. It began to master it.

    The team had built the chemistry to apply it as a tool. The purpose of a contending team became realized before our eyes.

    We overcame adversity and surmounted.

    And then, everything just flipped upside down.

    It is isn't about being a Superbowl Contender or being an average team.

    It is about building the requisite chemistry and momentum to turn the flywheel and make a special run. That's how it always happens. It happens that way with teams, and players. It combines skill with self-mastery.

    The bizarre thing is that the Jets accomplished these things, and then self-abdicated.

    The explanations lie with the players, the coaches, and the FO.

    Everyone is guilty. No excuse. This wasn't a team that could not cause damage and contend.

    Bitonti, your post is typical of Jets fans in a way. You don't think you deserve it. Never good enough. Never - it's destiny. Acceptance of mediocrity. And when a historic collapse occurs - it is rationalized as "[I]we just weren't that good anyway[/I]."

    I can't buy that.

  7. #47
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    [QUOTE=Darth Vader;2930751]Bitonti, your post is typical of Jets fans in a way. You don't think you deserve it. Never good enough. Never - it's destiny. Acceptance of mediocrity. And when a historic collapse occurs - it is rationalized as "[I]we just weren't that good anyway[/I]."

    I can't buy that.[/QUOTE]

    every fan thinks they DESERVE a championship. that being a fan for a certain period of time ENTITLES one to a championship. Or that every collapse is historic. I understand those emotions but thats all they are - emotions without basis in logic.

    the truth is - we are guarunteed NOTHING beyond the entertainment of watching the games. Statistically if 32 teams want to win and 31 teams literally can't, where does that leave the die hard fan? most of the time, unhappy and looking for answers. that's life.

    im all for making change when it's required or when it will make things better - but all this talk about the players got complacent, or Mangini didn't motivate them - none of it makes sense. Pro players are not motivated by halftime speeches. They know what's at stake, for them it's literally their entire way of life, every single day.

    To say the Jets didn't really want to win, and it's Mangini's fault, is trying to find a scapegoat. Maybe he should be held accountable but I personally don't believe this Jets team was ever as legit a contender as we and the media believed them to be.

    The legend of Brett Favre plays great on TV but on the field, the guy is great 1 drive and a total mess for the next 4 drives. He's washed up, and Im here to say the QB situation hurt this team worse than the coaching situation. and the defense was pathetic at times... they are trotting ty law out there for pete's sake. Fire a coordinator ok but fire the head coach I dunno.

  8. #48
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2931097]every fan thinks they DESERVE a championship. that being a fan for a certain period of time ENTITLES one to a championship. Or that every collapse is historic. I understand those emotions but thats all they are - emotions without basis in logic.

    the truth is - we are guarunteed NOTHING beyond the entertainment of watching the games. Statistically if 32 teams want to win and 31 teams literally can't, where does that leave the die hard fan? most of the time, unhappy and looking for answers. that's life.

    im all for making change when it's required or when it will make things better - but all this talk about the players got complacent, or Mangini didn't motivate them - none of it makes sense. Pro players are not motivated by halftime speeches. They know what's at stake, for them it's literally their entire way of life, every single day.

    To say the Jets didn't really want to win, and it's Mangini's fault, is trying to find a scapegoat. Maybe he should be held accountable but I personally don't believe this Jets team was ever as legit a contender as we and the media believed them to be.

    The legend of Brett Favre plays great on TV but on the field, the guy is great 1 drive and a total mess for the next 4 drives. He's washed up, and Im here to say [B]the QB situation hurt this team worse than the coaching situation[/B]. and the defense was pathetic at times... they are trotting ty law out there for pete's sake. Fire a coordinator ok but fire the head coach I dunno.[/QUOTE]
    This was even before Favre arrived. And his arrival didn't seem to help. :(

    But when you see how the Jets loaded up thru FA, you have to believe that good coaching could outweigh any QB detrement.

  9. #49
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    Let's reverse the situation, and say we're all thrilled the way things are going and press through cheering and media coverage that EM get a big fat raise and a multi year deal...$3 million a year sound good? 4 years with options?

    And the press conference announcing that is right after we lay down for the Dolphins and lose 31-10 with Pennington taking victory kneals for the last 2 minutes.

    And you get to watch the press conference re-run on SNY, YES, MSN, and ESPN about 20 times a day for the next 3 days.

    So...let's just fire the Bozo because the above scenario seems too absurd even for this franchise.

  10. #50
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    [QUOTE=Jet Blast;2930267]Good post bit, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

    For a moment, forget our record last season and this season. The thing that is infuriating is the UNREALIZED POTENTIAL. Were the Jets a superbowl caliber team? Maybe, maybe not. BUT, they are a talented team that is under performing. That is what bothers me.[/QUOTE]

    I think you have hit the right agenda here. The JETS are not progressing as a team under Mangini and that is, IMO, the main concern of all here. He does appear to have lost the team/players respect. That is my biggest concern. No I did not feel they were a SB team (I would have taken it!)but I did not expect to revert back to a terrible team either.

  11. #51
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2930035]the statement on this board for the most Part is that Eric Mangini isn't a good coach, he did a poor job and deserves to be fired.

    so let's assume that's true.

    When we are saying Mangini screwed up, he did a poor job, the implication is that a good job gets them a couple more wins. Right?

    So If they had a different coach, a better motivator (like Herm lol) would this be a 13 or 14 win team?

    in other words was this 2008 Jets ever a [b]REAL Super Bowl contender?[/b]

    if you answer yes, than maybe Mangini deserves to go.

    If we are saying Mangini did a bad job that means a good job gets this team to 13 or 14 wins, i just don't see that to be the case.

    my take - the 2008 Jets are, even with Favre and Jenkins, a 9 or 10 win team max. they might win this week, they might not, but to expect more is unrealistic. the difference between this team and NE and MIA is negligable, NONE of these teams are real Super Bowl contenders, not this season. NE could have been but Brady injury took care of that. if the Jets and Pats win this weekend we are talking about two 11-5 teams, 1 10-6 team and maybe 2 of em playing in the wild card round. no first round byes... no super hot team with franchise caliber QB (like the Giants). None of these teams were legit.

    the difference is this year they won several games they should have lost (@NE, @ TEN) and lost several games they should have won (@SEA, @OAK)... but the end result is 4-12 becomes a 9 or 10 win team... just like we thought they would.

    4-12 doesn't become 13-3 or 14-2... to become a REAL super bowl contender you need more than a couple hot weeks, you need to be a winning/playoff caliber team for several years.

    Now Im not starting this thread to "defend" Mangini, my point is to ask the crowd, [COLOR="Black"][COLOR="black"][COLOR="Red"][B]what were your expectations[/B][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR], and were they realistic? Don't focus on the fact they were 8-3 at a given point in time because Super Bowl contenders don't get created mid-season by the fans and the media. They establish themselves over years.[/QUOTE]


    Expectations change when you start 8-3. You cant say they dont.

  12. #52
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    [QUOTE=Traitor Jay & the Woodies;2930219]Simple question:

    After the Tennessee game, did YOU think the Jets were one of three or four teams that would likely represent the AFC in the Superbowl?[/QUOTE]

    Simple question. Unanswered.

  13. #53
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    I don't think motivation is the issue at all myself. The Jets want to win badly, the coaches want to win badly but the game plans and overall coaching philosophy stinks and what is worse stunk badly for a lot of games even when the team was winning. A good coaching staff realizes that the team has a real problem and knows that if they do not actively correct it to become better that they will pay for it sooner or later. A bad coaching staff does nothing and thinks that since we are winning all is rosy.

    A lot of the doomsayers predicted problems ahead even at 8-3 because there were clear, tangible faults with the team and the game plan. The ostriches sloughed it off and said there is no such thing as a bad win.

    Motivation was not the problem, awful in game coaching that last game and totally faulty, unadapatable game plans was the problem.

    The reason why some people now have grave doubts about Mangini? Even now, after all that has happened he doesn't seem to realize why the team went down hill and doesn't seem to acknowledge a fault in the game plan.

    If I had confidence that Mangini would say....gee we were dumbasses last year and have to radically change things I wouldn't be in the dump him camp.

  14. #54
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    [QUOTE=usapaw;2931134] No I did not feel they were a SB team (I would have taken it!)but I did not expect to revert back to a terrible team either.[/QUOTE]

    my contention is that 9-7 or 10-6 isn't terrible in the NFL. In fact it's pretty much what we expected would be the high end for this squad.

  15. #55
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    [QUOTE=Traitor Jay & the Woodies;2930219]Simple question:

    After the Tennessee game, did YOU think the Jets were one of three or four teams that would likely represent the AFC in the Superbowl?[/QUOTE]

    No I didn't. They got hot but unless they could stay hot the whole year (Unlikely) they weren't a real contender. Honestly my hope was best case win the division, win a single playoff game and see where it goes. They are probably going to fall short of that hope but not by much. never in my mind's eye did I see them going 13-3 (i.e. winning out) keeping a first round bye and winning the super bowl.

    And for those who are gonna bring up PIT, IND and NYG as 11 win super bowl winners, those teams had franchise QBs, this team has a guy that used to be a franchise QB.

  16. #56
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2931179]my contention is that 9-7 or 10-6 isn't terrible in the NFL. In fact it's pretty much what we expected would be the high end for this squad.[/QUOTE]

    Agreed. If you place all your expectations on the pre-season and your money on Vegas odds at that time. Problem with your scenario is that as seasons progress expectations change. A team that plays down to competition and below it are a major disappointment to its fans. Jets are no exception.

  17. #57
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2931179]my contention is that 9-7 or 10-6 isn't terrible in the NFL. In fact it's pretty much what we expected would be the high end for this squad.[/QUOTE]

    .500 record for 3 years is not an accomplishment. You don't reward that with a contract extension. It's like an attendance award for a C student.

    So, if they aren't going to extend him, why bother staying another year?

  18. #58
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;2930035]

    in other words was this 2008 Jets ever a [b]REAL Super Bowl contender?[/b]

    [/QUOTE]

    Never.

    39-year old, over-the-hill QB's don't win Super Bowls.

  19. #59
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    [QUOTE=PatsFanTX;2931203]Never.

    39-year old, over-the-hill QB's don't win Super Bowls.[/QUOTE]

    Interesting. Unitas and Elway were the oldest at 37.

    [url]http://football.about.com/cs/superbowl/a/sbquarterbacks.htm[/url]

  20. #60
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    [QUOTE=PatsFanTX;2931203]Never.

    39-year old, over-the-hill QB's don't win Super Bowls.[/QUOTE]


    He did miss the cut off...Elway was 38.

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