Enjoy an Ads-Free Jets Insider - Become a Jets Insider VIP!
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 42

Thread: Seattle & Portland refuse to salt frozen roads...so people die

  1. #21
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    21,950
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Tucker134;2935072][url]http://crosscut.com/2008/12/24/climate/18731/[/url]


    can u just stop now please...it's like you constantly try to get on the wrong side of every issue.[/QUOTE]


    [QUOTE=From Tucker's article]In a city that gets snow like this once every 12 years and doesn't have the snowplow contingent to deal with it[/QUOTE]

    It's the drivers. If you don't get snow like that very often, driving in it can seem like an insurmountable, complex task.

  2. #22
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    6,828
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Tucker134;2931280]WRONG (again) Plumber...I took a car from Portland, OR to West Salem, OR yesterday..visiting the wife's fam for CHRISTMAS..& we saw first hand the results of using chemical de-icers that are supposedly enviro-friendly. That's the genesis of this thread..salt works, otherwise innocent people die- & your typically simplistic answer referring to how people drive being the cause of these accidents is wrong....again.[/QUOTE]

    Seriously....are you on crack? Salt saves lives?

    I lived in Banff for six years...no salt in a national park, and more snow you could dream of anywhere in the U.S. (save MAYBE Colorado)....guess what, hardly any accidents.

    First and foremost, if people actually had proper tires on their cars, and actually learned to winter drive, that would do far more than a few grains of sand on the road could.

  3. #23
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    21,950
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=CanadaSteve;2935090]Seriously....are you on crack? Salt saves lives?

    I lived in Banff for six years...no salt in a national park, and more snow you could dream of anywhere in the U.S. (save MAYBE Colorado)....guess what, hardly any accidents.

    First and foremost, if people actually had proper tires on their cars, and actually learned to winter drive, that would do far more than a few grains of sand on the road could.[/QUOTE]

    Exactly, Steve. People get by w/o it ALL THE TIME. Tucker here thinks that I too am anti-salt, which I am not. Of course I think Seattle and Portland should use salt, so that good drivers don't get hit by the Northwests infamously bad drivers and killed.

    Salt is only part of the equation....driver skill is the larger part. I love metaphors. Southern California, drought spell, 4th of July weekend. Everyone is lighting off fireworks and subsequently there is an increase in fires. Are the fires the fault of: A.) The drought or B.) People lighting fireworks. The answer, of course, is both A and B...but mostly B.

  4. #24
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    36,750
    Post Thanks / Like
    Reading this thread makes me wonder why I ever posted in this subforum.

    Really.

  5. #25
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    21,950
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2938164]Reading this thread makes me wonder why I ever posted in this subforum.

    Really.[/QUOTE]

    Really? You don't think that the socio-political implications of road salt use touches American lives everywhere? Do you want to live in a socialist communist country that uses sand:eek: instead of good old American salt?? Tsk, tsk Warfish...

    Or is it because you expect more from the forum that brought you such classics as:

    Obama's grandma lives in a hut in Africa: [url]http://www.jetsinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160078[/url]
    (Really riveting stuff...almost as amazing as "McCain's Uncle Lives in a Log Cabin...in Montana!!!! A hut?!?! In AFRICA?!? Whudathunkit?)

  6. #26
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    24,073
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=adb280z;2931311]Buy snow tires. You'll do just fine with snow on the road.[/QUOTE]

    Not with pure ice. I don't care if you have Bridgestone Blizzaks or Nokian Hakkapiliitas, if you hit a patch of really slick ice those tires aren't doing a damn thing.

    I understand the point about people not driving correctly in slick weather. I see plenty of people riding around slick curves with their brake lights on. Last year, with 4wd and a set of new Haks, I hit a patch of ice going downhill and it was a freefall. Like a rollercoaster. My brakes did nothing, putting the car in park would have done nothing too. It was pure physics, a heavy car on a slick sheet of ice going downhill.

    IMO, salting roads should be near the top of the priority list.

  7. #27
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    1,710
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=HDCentStOhio;2931708]Weak argument. It is "relying on the government" to keep public roads safe?So the police should be privatetoo, right? How about mass transit? Can you imagine 3 different buses rushing to the corner simultaneously to pick up a line of passengers?[/QUOTE]

    Socialist. Might as well socialize medicine too. I mean, who takes care of you more? The Police, FD, or doctors?
    Last edited by Sharrow; 01-01-2009 at 02:19 AM.

  8. #28
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    21,950
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Timmy®;2943031]IMO, salting roads should be near the top of the priority list.[/QUOTE]

    Once again...how do we manage it here w/o salt? Must be magic....



    Or sand. Yup, it's probably the sand. Hey, I know! Iraq has a buttload of sand,,,:rolleyes:

  9. #29
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    24,073
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2943152]Once again...how do we manage it here w/o salt? Must be magic....

    [/QUOTE]

    Not really, you just have more people die that didn't need to.

  10. #30
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Montville, NJ
    Posts
    5,473
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Timmy®;2943031]Not with pure ice. I don't care if you have Bridgestone Blizzaks or Nokian Hakkapiliitas, if you hit a patch of really slick ice those tires aren't doing a damn thing.

    I understand the point about people not driving correctly in slick weather. I see plenty of people riding around slick curves with their brake lights on. Last year, with 4wd and a set of new Haks, I hit a patch of ice going downhill and it was a freefall. Like a rollercoaster. My brakes did nothing, putting the car in park would have done nothing too. [B]It was pure physics, a heavy car on a slick sheet of ice going downhill.[/B]

    IMO, salting roads should be near the top of the priority list.[/QUOTE]


    you're correct that it was physics... however it's not heavy car on slick sheet of ice like you suspect (actually the weight of the car helps you!). It's the physics of traction and the inherent limitations of it and what you can ask your tires to do. Your tires can only do so much... i.e. they can't be fully turned and you can't be fully accelerating at the same time (not without losing traction)

    anyone with a decent amount of driver's training (I'm not talking about drivers licensing BS... I'm talking HPDE) can explain that to you. It also has to do with weight distribution and the loads placed on the tires and what tires you are placing the loads on

    if you were driving within the limits in an AWD car with those tires you would be fine, ice or no ice, hill or no hill, turn or no turn... trust me, this is coming from someone who can and does steer cars with their feet (and I don't mean on the steering wheel, I mean with the three pedals! :D)


    oh yeah and btw hitting your brakes was the WORST thing you could do and was a likely cause of your skid. And you mention putting your car in 'park' which means it's an auto which is another reason you skidded because the car is driving you in an auto (you're just holding on and pointing it via the steering wheel IMHO) and it chose the wrong gear (as usual)... be a man and get a 5/6-speed... I've already clued you in to the solution to your problem, an AWD 325iX (1987-1991 in US)

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nBpDNYPeTQ[/url]



    I forgot, PK, you are correct sand will definitely help out with ice/snow. It increases traction and during the day picks up solar radiation, heats up and starts melting the ice... PLUS it doesn't corrode or rust our cars!!! :thumbup:
    Last edited by King Ryan; 12-30-2008 at 12:30 PM.

  11. #31
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    1,710
    Post Thanks / Like
    Yeah, we used to put sandbags in the trunk of our car back in college when the weather got bad. Helps a lot.

  12. #32
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Montville, NJ
    Posts
    5,473
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Sharrow;2943279]Yeah, we used to put sandbags in the trunk of our car back in college when the weather got bad. Helps a lot.[/QUOTE]

    unless your car is FWD :D

  13. #33
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    21,950
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Timmy®;2943164]Not really, you just have more people die that didn't need to.[/QUOTE]

    Yeah...no. The only death I can recall during our last bout of lake effect was on the Thruway...and that person was from Illinois driving to Maine. Oh. And they use salt on the Thruway anyway.


    [QUOTE=Tanginius]I forgot, PK, you are correct sand will definitely help out with ice/snow. It increases traction and during the day picks up solar radiation, heats up and starts melting the ice... PLUS it doesn't corrode or rust our cars!!! [/QUOTE]

    Sand does definitely helps alleviate the slippage...and god knows how bad salt is for the undercarriage of a car.

    I threw a set of Michelin Ice-X tires on my wife's suv last month. Freaking things are cake! And they aren't that loud on dry roads...

  14. #34
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    24,073
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Tanginius;2943248]you're correct that it was physics... however it's not heavy car on slick sheet of ice like you suspect (actually the weight of the car helps you!). It's the physics of traction and the inherent limitations of it and what you can ask your tires to do. Your tires can only do so much... i.e. they can't be fully turned and you can't be fully accelerating at the same time (not without losing traction)

    anyone with a decent amount of driver's training (I'm not talking about drivers licensing BS... I'm talking HPDE) can explain that to you. It also has to do with weight distribution and the loads placed on the tires and what tires you are placing the loads on

    if you were driving within the limits in an AWD car with those tires you would be fine, ice or no ice, hill or no hill, turn or no turn... trust me, this is coming from someone who can and does steer cars with their feet (and I don't mean on the steering wheel, I mean with the three pedals! :D)


    oh yeah and btw hitting your brakes was the WORST thing you could do and was a likely cause of your skid. And you mention putting your car in 'park' which means it's an auto which is another reason you skidded because the car is driving you in an auto (you're just holding on and pointing it via the steering wheel IMHO) and it chose the wrong gear (as usual)... be a man and get a 5/6-speed... I've already clued you in to the solution to your problem, an AWD 325iX (1987-1991 in US)

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nBpDNYPeTQ[/url]

    I know what you mean about not braking on ice, as you saw I mentioned people going around here on icy curves with their brake lights on.


    I forgot, PK, you are correct sand will definitely help out with ice/snow. It increases traction and during the day picks up solar radiation, heats up and starts melting the ice... PLUS it doesn't corrode or rust our cars!!! :thumbup:[/QUOTE]

    I'm not talking about braking when things get hairy, I'm talking about tapping the brakes before things get bad.. before you start the downhill curve. I don't know about Jersey, but you can't go for a ride around here without using your brakes in any weather.

    Your point is well taken though, most people can't drive in bad weather. I agreer with your point on sand.

    However,this year, I've seen many towns do absolutely nothing until a storm is over to save money. It's treacherous for those who have to get to work in a storm.

  15. #35
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Posts
    7,121
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Warfish;2938164]Reading this thread makes me wonder why I ever posted in this subforum.

    Really.[/QUOTE]


    Hey, you're either with the pro-salters, or you're against them. :D

  16. #36
    All League
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,146
    Post Thanks / Like
    this is a serious issue in the Pacific Northwest...the political sh*t that goes on out there is incomprehensible. Friggin whack jobs

  17. #37
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    358
    Post Thanks / Like
    So, in the Saltless Utopia, will we have seasons where drivers south of a certain latitude aren't allowed to drive up North? When they fly into, say, Boston, to ski in NH or VT, will there be a mandatory 5-hour course before they're allowed to rent a car? Or will troopers be setting up driver checkpoints at the state lines?

    Maybe there is a marketing opportunity for the ski areas..."Getting to the slopes is half the fun!"

  18. #38
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    21,950
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=LyonMtJet;2944632]So, in the Saltless Utopia, will we have seasons where drivers south of a certain latitude aren't allowed to drive up North? When they fly into, say, Boston, to ski in NH or VT, will there be a mandatory 5-hour course before they're allowed to rent a car? Or will troopers be setting up driver checkpoints at the state lines?

    Maybe there is a marketing opportunity for the ski areas..."Getting to the slopes is half the fun!"[/QUOTE]

    1.) Why on earth would someone fly into Boston to ski in Vermont?

    2.) Driving tests are a great idea...especially since most "driving" tests only actually test your "parking" skills. It's a driver's license...not a parking license. Who gives a crap if you can parallel park? Can you merge on the freeway without killing us all?

    3.) Checkpoints are a great idea if it keeps stupid f*cks like this as far away from my family as possible:

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl8gHZH5nWY[/url]

    GET YOUR FOOT OFF THE GAS, STUPID!

    A lot of people cannot handle driving in the snow. Their car slips, they freak out...slam on the brake, or gas like stupid in the video, overcompensate with the wheel. For many people, when their car starts to slide...they get scared. But there is an easy way to fix that.

    Next time it snows...go to an empty, unplowed parking lot and go crazy. Do donut, e-brake slides, go as fast as you can and slam on the brakes, goose the gas while the wheels are turned, practice oversteering and understeering correction. Have a blast. It's a great way to kill a few hours on a Sunday morning. My father did this to me when I had my permit... actually he did it several times. But you know what....the next time I was in a car and we started to slide, it seemed like a game...it was fun. Now, I actually curse my wifes AWD SUV because I CAN'T make it slide around. It's why I prefer to drive my Nissan pickup...at least with that I can pop it out of 4WD and do a bit of sliding around if I want to.

  19. #39
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    358
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;2945424]1.) Why on earth would someone fly into Boston to ski in Vermont?

    2.) Driving tests are a great idea...especially since most "driving" tests only actually test your "parking" skills. It's a driver's license...not a parking license. Who gives a crap if you can parallel park? Can you merge on the freeway without killing us all?

    3.) Checkpoints are a great idea if it keeps stupid f*cks like this as far away from my family as possible:
    .[/QUOTE]

    1.) People really do fly into Boston to ski in Vermont or NH. Lots of them. Check a map. Locate ski areas. Try to find nearest major airport. Rethink your point #1.

    2.) Checkpoints and administering drivers' tests for people South of the Mason-Dixon line who dare vacation in the winter up North. Yup, sounds much cheaper than spreading some salt on the roads.

    3.) The Adirondack Mountains provided me many driving lessons, thank you very much. The terrain is just like Western NY - except that it's tilted.

  20. #40
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    1,710
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Tanginius;2943289]unless your car is FWD :D[/QUOTE]

    Well, that would just be stupid. Good point though, if we have any northwesterners in here, they just might have done that. :p

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us