Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 37 of 37

Thread: Mangini + Tanenbaum = Losers

  1. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    9,157
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=genom;2937969]You have no idea what you're talking about.
    1) For starters, the Cardinals do not run a 3-4. Gabe Watson is a fat slob and had a lot of character concerns coming into that draft. He did not start one game this entire year, that speaks volumes about the kind of player Gabe Watson is. Sione Pouha is better than Gabe Watson, and it's really not even a close comparison.

    2) Where does Jared Allen fit in a base 3-4? He is 6'6 270 and is a tweener between a 3-4 DE and OLB. He was incredibly productive for 5 years as a 4-3 DE, and you're going to trade for a guy that probably has no desire whatsoever to be an OLB? I understand and accept that Gholston is a project at 3-4 OLB, but guess what, Allen would have been as well.

    3) Ok receiving end? You are thoroughly out of your mind. Dustin Keller finished with 48 catches for 530 yards and 3 TD's. Let's compare that rookie year to the rookie year's of the best tight ends in the NFL.
    PS: His blocking has improved.

    Antonio Gates' rookie year: 24 for 389 with 2 TD's
    Dallas Clark: 29 for 340 with 1 TD
    Tony Gonzalez: 33 for 368 with 2 TD's[/QUOTE]

    1 and 2) We'd be in the playoffs right now with Jared Allen and a 4-3 defense. Watson is a better player than Pouha, not to mention way better than scrubs that aren't on the team like Schegel or bums like Eric and Brad Smith who don't deserve to be on the team or the NFL for that matter.

    3) Keller is a nice player but no way do him and Vernon the Ghost equal one Jared Allen. Wow, his blocking improved from terrible to just bad. You're a genius Genom. John Carlson was taken 8 spots after Keller (who btw, did nothing for us after the Denver game) actually had way better stats than Keller with 613 yds and 5 tds.

    Eric Mangini had has hands in almost all of Mike T's moves. if Mangina goes than Mike T has to go to. Just like Bradway and Edwards were linked in 2005, same thing applies here.
    Last edited by VincenzoTestaverde; 12-28-2008 at 09:15 PM.

  2. #22
    Rookie
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    641
    Post Thanks / Like
    Tannenbaum is way over-rated by the folks on this board. True, he's brought in some good players. But he's also made a lot of bonehead decisions--and I'm not talking about hindsight. His pick of Anthony Schlegel in the 3rd round 2006 was as befuddling then as it remains today. Gholston's heart and instincts were a major question mark before the draft, and it turns out the concerns were justified. Did Tannenbaum fully evaluate the guy before investing the #6 pick on him? I doubt it. The Kendall controversy was needless and it turned out to be ruinous in '07. Did we really need to give up picks to trade up into the first round for Keller this year? The question was asked the day it happened and it remains a valid question today. Everyone knew he couldn't block. Now we also know he has trouble making tough catches, and sometimes can't even make the easy ones. Yet he made the deal despite the fact the team desperately needed a wide receiver with speed--someone like Eddie Royal, who we could have had with the second round pick he traded away. Kellen Clemens in round 2 in '06 was a reach, regardless of what Ron Jaworski thought. He needed to do a better job strengthening the QB spot with young talent. And he has woefully neglected the defensive line in his drafting--probably because he trades up like a maniac. These aren't nitpicks. These are indications of flaws in his draft preparations and strategy.

    I won't even mention the free agent signings. Anyone with a fantasy league team and Woody's checkbook could have made those deals.

  3. #23
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    18,349
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=VincenzoTestaverde;2937265]In those incredible drafts you're citing Mike Tanenbaum also brought in Anthony Schlegel, Eric Smith, Brad Smith and everyone's favorite loser Vernon Gholston.

    We passed up Gabe Watson, a solid 3-4 NT who could have given us very solid depth behind Jenkins, for those f'n losers in 2006. In 2007 he passed up Brady Quinn, who looked damn good before he broke his finger this past season and will probably be a nice QB the next 10 years. You like Revis? What the f*ck is he doing for you now? Without a pass rush he's almost average.

    2008 - Vernon Gholston. Jared Allen was being shopped around by KC to everyone. Allen is maybe the single best pass rusher in the entire NFL and would have made our defense top 5 if we had gotten him instead of wasting a top 6 pick on V-Ghost. Hey we got Keller and he is an ok receiving tight end, can't block for a sh*t but he ot hot for a couple games and then took some off.

    Yeah, Mike T's a great a GM.[/QUOTE]

    Life must be excellent when you have the benefit of hindsight working for you. Do me a favor and go back to 2000 and tell our GM to draft Tom Brady while you are at it....

    Really, Tannenbaum is not the problem, he's brought in a lot of good players, both through the Draft and Free Agency. Some mistakes, but even the best GM's aren't perfect. Hell, Scott Pioli traded up for Chad Jackson (Oops!)

    PS: Nobody knows what the hell Quinn is, he had 1 nice debut which he followed up with 2 awful showings before getting hurt. Using him as an example, especially when the alternative was Revis, is just hurting your argument.

  4. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    9,157
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=BroadwayRay;2938021]Tannenbaum is way over-rated by the folks on this board. True, he's brought in some good players. But he's also made a lot of bonehead decisions--and I'm not talking about hindsight. His pick of Anthony Schlegel in the 3rd round 2006 was as befuddling then as it remains today. Gholston's heart and instincts were a major question mark before the draft, and it turns out the concerns were justified. Did Tannenbaum fully evaluate the guy before investing the #6 pick on him? I doubt it. The Kendall controversy was needless and it turned out to be ruinous in '07. Did we really need to give up picks to trade up into the first round for Keller this year? The question was asked the day it happened and it remains a valid question today. Everyone knew he couldn't block. Now we also know he has trouble making tough catches, and sometimes can't even make the easy ones. Yet he made the deal despite the fact the team desperately needed a wide receiver with speed--someone like Eddie Royal, who we could have had with the second round pick he traded away. Kellen Clemens in round 2 in '06 was a reach, regardless of what Ron Jaworski thought. He needed to do a better job strengthening the QB spot with young talent. And he has woefully neglected the defensive line in his drafting--probably because he trades up like a maniac. These aren't nitpicks. These are indications of flaws in his draft preparations and strategy.

    I won't even mention the free agent signings. Anyone with a fantasy league team and Woody's checkbook could have made those deals.[/QUOTE]

    The ironic thing is that Jets fans have a massive hard-on for Mangina (and rightfully so) but they're just ecstatic over how wonderful Tanenbaum is, meanwhile Mangini had his hands in just about every major decision the guy has made since 2006.

    The failure to bring in a young QB has been the biggest faux pas. Kellen Clemens sucks. Hopefully Rat is the real deal but who knows. People are whining and crying about Favre but in all honesty I doubt this team makes the playoffs with Pennington either, we needed to draft a young QB and probably still do.

  5. #25
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    9,157
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Ven0m;2938044]Life must be excellent when you have the benefit of hindsight working for you. Do me a favor and go back to 2000 and tell our GM to draft Tom Brady while you are at it....

    Really, Tannenbaum is not the problem, he's brought in a lot of good players, both through the Draft and Free Agency. Some mistakes, but even the best GM's aren't perfect. Hell, Scott Pioli traded up for Chad Jackson (Oops!)

    PS: Nobody knows what the hell Quinn is, he had 1 nice debut which he followed up with 2 awful showings before getting hurt. Using him as an example, especially when the alternative was Revis, is just hurting your argument.[/QUOTE]

    Well in those two awful outings he beat the Bills on the road in a game the Browns were heavily favored against and then with a broken finger couldn't play against the Texans. Revis is just another corner without a pass rush. Enough with the man-crushes over how wonderful he is.

    Tanenbaum had an awful track record with free agents up until this year and you can make an argument he made some bone-headed decisions giving Faneca a ton of dough when he looks like he's done and no way is Pace worth the money the Jets gave him. Woody has a horrendous contract and is playing out of position. You want to put Pace on the level of Demarcus Ware or Terrell Suggs? No, but he sure gets paid like those players. And it's not hindsight because I thought and said this same exact sh*t when it was done.

    My basic point is that Mike T and Mangini are both linked. If you're going to get rid of one you have to get rid of the other.

  6. #26
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,482
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=VincenzoTestaverde;2938073]Well in those two awful outings he beat the Bills on the road in a game the Browns were heavily favored against and then with a broken finger couldn't play against the Texans. [B]Revis is just another corner without a pass rush. Enough with the man-crushes over how wonderful he is.
    [/B]
    Tanenbaum had an awful track record with free agents up until this year and you can make an argument [B]he made some bone-headed decisions giving Faneca a ton of dough[/B] when he looks like he's done and no way is Pace worth the money the Jets gave him. Woody has a horrendous contract and is playing out of position. You want to put Pace on the level of Demarcus Ware or Terrell Suggs? No, but he sure gets paid like those players. And it's not hindsight because I thought and said this same exact sh*t when it was done.

    My basic point is that Mike T and Mangini are both linked. If you're going to get rid of one you have to get rid of the other.[/QUOTE]

    1. I think it is universally recognized that Revis is a lockdown corner in a league where they are becoming harder and harder to find. Does that mean he can cover for an infinite amount of time sans pass rush??? No but he has been recognized by analysts to reporters to fans of other teams. So sorry if I don't take your seemingly drunken bumbling as gospel.

    2. Faneca may not be worth all of that cash but he was certainly worth a lot of it. Our running game is much improved and he has elevated the play of Brick and Mangold... oh right they are still epic busts my bad :rolleyes:. One last point on this who would should Tannenbaum gone after instead of Faneca to fill the gaping hole we had at left guard?

  7. #27
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Orange County, California
    Posts
    1,617
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=VincenzoTestaverde;2938015]

    Eric Mangini had has hands in almost all of Mike T's moves. if Mangina goes than Mike T has to go to. Just like Bradway and Edwards were linked in 2005, same thing applies here.[/QUOTE]

    Name one team that does not miss on their prospects in the 3rd and 4th round? It happens, and it happens a lot. Mike Tannenbaum is not immune to this, he will pick some bad ones.

    I wouldn't consider his FA acquisitions awful. They were cost effective, but they weren't awful. Andre Dyson and Kenyon Coleman come to mind.
    Last edited by genom; 12-28-2008 at 09:39 PM.

  8. #28
    Veteran
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    2,091
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=VincenzoTestaverde;2937207]I know Mangini is getting fired (if not it's an Iraq-sized mistake) but this[B] idiot Mike T needs to go too. [/B] If you don't think for a second Mangini had anything to do with the moves Tannbaum has made over the years give me a break. Both of these clowns need to go.[/QUOTE]

    Eeeehhxx, Wrong answer. Would you like to go for double jeopardy where the scores can really change? Tanny has done just fine.

  9. #29
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    9,157
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=TheMo;2938137]1. I think it is universally recognized that Revis is a lockdown corner in a league where they are becoming harder and harder to find. Does that mean he can cover for an infinite amount of time sans pass rush??? No but he has been recognized by analysts to reporters to fans of other teams. So sorry if I don't take your seemingly drunken bumbling as gospel.

    2. Faneca may not be worth all of that cash but he was certainly worth a lot of it. Our running game is much improved and he has elevated the play of Brick and Mangold... oh right they are still epic busts my bad :rolleyes:. One last point on this who would should Tannenbaum gone after instead of Faneca to fill the gaping hole we had at left guard?[/QUOTE]

    1. I guess you haven't been watching Jets games all season long because no f'n way is Revis or anyone in our secondary "lock-down." Without a pass rush our secondary couldn't stop Seneca Wallace and a bunch of scrubs.

    2. The running game was better this season but Faneca was abysmal in pass protection and he nearly got Favre killed several times and btw, we would have never had to pay that old has-been a ton of money that clogs up our cap for the next few years if the current regime hadn't flushed Kendall, a quality LG at a fraction of the price, down the f'n toilet.

  10. #30
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,572
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=VincenzoTestaverde;2937359]Faneca = BUST

    Pace = Ok player, way overpiced and nothing special.

    Woody = Overpriced and playing out of position

    Brick = Overrated

    Jenkins was his best move and even he is running out of gas, is injured and has the hideous Sione Pouha backing him up. This team is horrible and Mike T is a mediocre capoligist at best, Mangina was behind almost all of his moves. This entire regime needs to take a long hike.[/QUOTE]

    +1

  11. #31
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,572
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=VincenzoTestaverde;2938176]1. I guess you haven't been watching Jets games all season long because no f'n way is Revis or anyone in our secondary "lock-down." Without a pass rush our secondary couldn't stop Seneca Wallace and a bunch of scrubs.

    2. The running game was better this season but Faneca was abysmal in pass protection and btw, we would have never had to pay that old has-been a ton of money that clogs up our cap for the next few years if the current regime hadn't flushed Kendall, a quality LG at a fraction of the price, down the toilet.[/QUOTE]

    faneca was below avg vs pass..a;so what great def team other than tenn did we really run the ball against well..all pile on stats..when the passing game went into shi***er where was the running game to carry the load..i.e. today especially the o.l run was horrible

  12. #32
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    9,157
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=ryan10;2938200]faneca was below avg vs pass..a;so what great def team other than tenn did we really run the ball against well..all pile on stats..when the passing game went into shi***er where was the running game to carry the load..i.e. today especially the o.l run was horrible[/QUOTE]

    Faneca has been a bust so far and he is only going to get worse with age. The apologists have a point that Faneca is an improvement over the garbage that was there before him (Clarke, another Mike T acquisition) but no way is he worth the contract and the cap space he is eating up and he got Favre killed all year long in pass protection.

    And the original point was that none of this sh*t had to happen in the first place but Tanenbaum had to give Kendall away because he didn't polish Mangina's vagina enough in summer 2007.

  13. #33
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    18,349
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=VincenzoTestaverde;2938073]Well in those two awful outings he beat the Bills on the road in a game the Browns were heavily favored against and then with a broken finger couldn't play against the Texans.[/quote]

    The Browns beat the Bills in spite of Quinn, not because of. You can't seriously credit him with leading his team to victory in a game where he completed 38.9% of his passes. You just can't.

    He played well against Denver, and that's it.

    [quote]Revis is just another corner without a pass rush. Enough with the man-crushes over how wonderful he is.[/quote]

    So a lack of a pass rush makes him a bad selection? No, it just makes him an excellent cornerback in a defense without a pass rush.

    [quote]Tanenbaum had an awful track record with free agents up until this year[/quote]

    Tannenbaum didn't have a track record to speak of with free agents up until this year, because we never had the cap room to pursue elite level free agents.

    If you really want to criticize him because Kimo von Oelhoffen was well, Kimo von Oelhoffen that's your buisness, but nobody should have been expecting much out of him. When you're dealing in the bargain bin you're going to end up with crap more often then not.

    [quote]and you can make an argument he made some bone-headed decisions giving Faneca a ton of dough when he looks like he's done and no way is Pace worth the money the Jets gave him. Woody has a horrendous contract and is playing out of position.[/quote]

    We only had the 9th ranked Rushing Offense (T-2nd by YPC which is the most important stat to me there, averaging 4.8 an attempt as a team is nothing short of excellent.) last year despite having purely an average runningback in Thomas Jones carrying the load. That's a very good run offense buddy, mainly due to the protection up front.

    We were also 14th with 30 Sacks Allowed, not great, but considering we were 29th the year before in that area it's a huge improvement.

    OL was the least of our problems last year, mainly thanks to the money that was spent.

    [quote]You want to put Pace on the level of Demarcus Ware or Terrell Suggs? No, but he sure gets paid like those players. And it's not hindsight because I thought and said this same exact sh*t when it was done.[/quote]

    He might be overpaid, but he played rather well for us, outside of the couple weeks when Harris was out where he was a little exposed in coverage. 7 sacks and 4 forced fumbles for a team that didn't know what the meaning of the word blitz? I'll take it. I'd like to see what he would do in an aggressive blitzing scheme.

    [quote]My basic point is that Mike T and Mangini are both linked. If you're going to get rid of one you have to get rid of the other.[/QUOTE]

    Not really, they're linked in the sense that they work on the same team, but that's it.

  14. #34
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    9,157
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Ven0m;2938231]The Browns beat the Bills in spite of Quinn, not because of. You can't seriously credit him with leading his team to victory in a game where he completed 38.9% of his passes. You just can't.

    He played well against Denver, and that's it.



    So a lack of a pass rush makes him a bad selection? No, it just makes him an excellent cornerback in a defense without a pass rush.



    Tannenbaum didn't have a track record to speak of with free agents up until this year, because we never had the cap room to pursue elite level free agents.

    If you really want to criticize him because Kimo von Oelhoffen was well, Kimo von Oelhoffen that's your buisness, but nobody should have been expecting much out of him. When you're dealing in the bargain bin you're going to end up with crap more often then not.



    We only had the 9th ranked Rushing Offense (T-2nd by YPC which is the most important stat to me there, averaging 4.8 an attempt as a team is nothing short of excellent.) last year despite having purely an average runningback in Thomas Jones carrying the load. That's a very good run offense buddy, mainly due to the protection up front.

    We were also 14th with 30 Sacks Allowed, not great, but considering we were 29th the year before in that area it's a huge improvement.

    OL was the least of our problems last year, mainly thanks to the money that was spent.



    He might be overpaid, but he played rather well for us, outside of the couple weeks when Harris was out where he was a little exposed in coverage. 7 sacks and 4 forced fumbles for a team that didn't know what the meaning of the word blitz? I'll take it. I'd like to see what he would do in an aggressive blitzing scheme.



    Not really, they're linked in the sense that they work on the same team, but that's it.[/QUOTE]

    If you watched the Browns-Bills monday night game it was strictly a defensive showdown and by the way Quinn broke his right index finger in the middle of the game. Yes, he game-managed his team to the win but the point was he won the game and didn't make any crucial mistakes that cost his team the game. First start on the road with a broken index finger on his throwing hand and he won the game without making any bad mistakes.

    A lack of a pass rush doesn't make Revis a bad selection but it exposes him and basically any other DB. DB's are becoming less and less valuable. The Minnesota Vikings don't have a great secondary but they have a monster pass rush and are the #3 seed in the NFL. Pass rush and QB are how you win championships in the NFL today and the Jets have neither.

    Tanenbaum's horrendous track record with free agents can't just be excused by saying "oh, no cap room." You can get quality cheap FA's in the NFL who get cut from other rosters or are just around but aren't commanding big deals. Besides Von Oelhoffen you have Clement, Clarke, Darian Barnes and sh*theads he traded for like Kevan Barlow.

    Our rushing offense improved but alot of that was the result of weaker schedule than what we had last year plus Faneca was a major weak link in our pass protection. The guy was a turnstile most of this season. With all that hype and the money he should have been better. Instead he's only going to get worse.

    Pace can't cover anyone. He's a nice player but no way is he worth the Terrell Suggs money Tanenbaum gave him.

    If you still think Mangini wasn't behind most, if not all of Mike T's decisions then go ahead and continue living in fantasyland. Through three seasons the guy has a losing record, only one playoff appearance that was a loss, wasted a #6 pick on Gholston, wasted picks in a deep draft on Schlegel and those two worthless Smith sh*tbags and we still don't have our QB of the future and 0 pass rush. Great job Mike T!
    Last edited by VincenzoTestaverde; 12-28-2008 at 10:05 PM.

  15. #35
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    14,477
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote=VincenzoTestaverde;2937265][B]In those incredible drafts you're citing Mike Tanenbaum also brought in Anthony Schlegel, Eric Smith, Brad Smith and everyone's favorite loser Vernon Gholston.
    [/B]
    We passed up Gabe Watson, a solid 3-4 NT who could have given us very solid depth behind Jenkins, for those f'n losers in 2006. In 2007 he passed up Brady Quinn, who looked damn good before he broke his finger this past season and will probably be a nice QB the next 10 years. You like Revis? What the f*ck is he doing for you now? Without a pass rush he's almost average.

    2008 - Vernon Gholston. Jared Allen was being shopped around by KC to everyone. Allen is maybe the single best pass rusher in the entire NFL and would have made our defense top 5 if we had gotten him instead of wasting a top 6 pick on V-Ghost. Hey we got Keller and he is an ok receiving tight end, can't block for a sh*t but he ot hot for a couple games and then took some off.

    Yeah, Mike T's a great a GM.[/quote]

    Congrats on explaining so well why nobody should take you seriously. You've identified four bad draft picks in 3 drafts (one a 4th rounder who actually wasn't a bad pick). You're complaining that he selected the best young cornerback in football instead of a QB who's started all of what, 2 pro games? You're complaining that he drafted a project DE/OLB instead of paying 2 first round picks for a straight DE . . . yep, pretty valid.

    I mean, look at the roster/cap situation we had before Tanny got here and look at the roster/cap situation now. Want to trade?

  16. #36
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    14,477
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote=VincenzoTestaverde;2937912]1. Those aren't highly debateable claims. Faneca has been a bust. Brick is overrated and Woody isn't quick enough to play Tackle, let alone get signed to multi-year deal that clogs up our cap.[/quote]

    Yep, that OL revamp was horrible. Its not like we had a decent running game this year :rolleyes:

  17. #37
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    14,477
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote=VincenzoTestaverde;2938176]1. I guess you haven't been watching Jets games all season long because no f'n way is Revis or anyone in our secondary "lock-down." Without a pass rush our secondary couldn't stop Seneca Wallace and a bunch of scrubs.[/quote]

    I guess you missed the portion of the defensive meeting where they decided that Revis was only going to cover one receiver/zone per play that game

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us