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Thread: " Is the Jets D really 1 player away from greatness ? " ~ ~ ~

  1. #1
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    " Is the Jets D really 1 player away from greatness ? " ~ ~ ~

    Is the Jets defense really one player away from greatness ?
    by Russ H on Apr 23, 2009 - 11:21 AM EDT

    > [url]http://www.ganggreennation.com/2009/4/23/850064/is-the-jets-defense-really-one[/url]

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    I think it's more like 5 or 6 players away. We have two mediocre DE's, and no depth behind them (or behind our NT). We have no consistent pass rushers at all. Calvin Pace is OK, but more like a complementary guy. And I believe the jury is still out on David Harris. We can give him a pass for his injuries, but IMO he has not been the dominant player he was supposed to be. Finally, while I believe we're good at corner (although not deep), our safeties concern me. Is Leonard really that good? And while Rhodes is great against the run and on blitzes, he's pretty slow on pass coverage.

    At the end of the day, we don't have the athletes of some of the better defenses, such as Baltimore, Pittsburgh, the She-Men, Philly, San Diego, et al.

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    [quote]Ryan has had experience in this kind of situation before. The Ravens drafted a DE out of Arizona 10th in the 2003 NFL draft. That player was having a great deal of difficulty in camp understanding the position of OLB in a 3-4 defense in the NFL. Now, he's a Pro Bowl OLB and one of the leaders on a dominant Ravens defense.

    I'm not suggesting that Ryan will turn Vernon Gholston into Terrell Suggs, I'm saying whatever kind of player Gholston has the ability to be, be it stud, dud or whatever, Ryan and his staff will yank it out of him.
    [/quote]
    That would be nice....:yes:

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    D is light

    [QUOTE=Toooon;3098076]I think it's more like 5 or 6 players away. We have two mediocre DE's, and no depth behind them (or behind our NT). We have no consistent pass rushers at all. Calvin Pace is OK, but more like a complementary guy. And I believe the jury is still out on David Harris. We can give him a pass for his injuries, but IMO he has not been the dominant player he was supposed to be. Finally, while I believe we're good at corner (although not deep), our safeties concern me. Is Leonard really that good? And while Rhodes is great against the run and on blitzes, he's pretty slow on pass coverage.

    At the end of the day, we don't have the athletes of some of the better defenses, such as Baltimore, Pittsburgh, the She-Men, Philly, San Diego, et al.[/QUOTE]


    This defense is much improved versus a year ago BUT still a ways off. The DBs are fine and there is a lot of depth. Thomas is not that good an LB. NT is ok IF they carefully rotate the three guys there. Jenkins must be rested. Greene and Pouha must contibute. DE is dreadful. Ellis has past his day. Coleman never was. Draft a DE (quick college DT) in the second unless we blow the whole draft reaching for Sanchez.

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    [QUOTE=Toooon;3098076]I think it's more like 5 or 6 players away. We have two mediocre DE's, and no depth behind them (or behind our NT). We have no consistent pass rushers at all. Calvin Pace is OK, but more like a complementary guy. And I believe the jury is still out on David Harris. We can give him a pass for his injuries, but IMO he has not been the dominant player he was supposed to be. Finally, while I believe we're good at corner (although not deep), our safeties concern me. Is Leonard really that good? And while Rhodes is great against the run and on blitzes, he's pretty slow on pass coverage.

    At the end of the day, we don't have the athletes of some of the better defenses, such as Baltimore, Pittsburgh, the She-Men, Philly, San Diego, et al.[/QUOTE]

    ANyone who agrees with this obviously cannot watch an NFL game as anything but a fan. Our D line was excellent the first half of the season, 3 against the run and we were second in sacks. The secondary was the culprit for adjustment through the season that lead us to be exposed. Waste of time post and waste of time logic. Go away.

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    [QUOTE=ADemas;3098246]ANyone who agrees with this obviously cannot watch an NFL game as anything but a fan. Our D line was excellent the first half of the season, 3 against the run and we were second in sacks. The secondary was the culprit for adjustment through the season that lead us to be exposed. Waste of time post and waste of time logic. Go away.[/QUOTE]

    The LB's were the culprit in coverage and when you have no edge pressure you're screwed.. Blame it on Mangini, Sutton and the players for not understanding it.

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    [QUOTE=ADemas;3098246]ANyone who agrees with this obviously cannot watch an NFL game as anything but a fan. Our D line was excellent the first half of the season, 3 against the run and we were second in sacks. The secondary was the culprit for adjustment through the season that lead us to be exposed. Waste of time post and waste of time logic. Go away.[/QUOTE]

    Waste of time? What kind of obnoxious comment is that? FU.

    Listen, I totally disagree with you. This is a defense that barely got pressure - even in the first half our sacks came in bunches (many in garbage time) and the pressure was never consistent. Ever.

    Go watch the Arizona game. I think we turned them over like 6 times - and they STILL put 35 points on us. That meant that we never stopped them without a turnover. If you rely on turnovers, it eventually comes back to bite you (see: second half of the season). That Cardinal game was a clear sign (at least to me) of what was to come later in the season.

    I think you just outed yourself as the "anything but a fan crowd" with that comment about the secondary. The reason they were shredded is that we had no pass rush. With Jenkins down and nothing behind him, we had absolutely no defensive line to speak of. And our high-priced LBs Pace and Thomas were doing nothing in the 2nd half without Jenkins to clear a path.

    Go watch Seneca Wallace (of all people) spending 10 seconds at a time in the pocket. In the 2nd half of the season we were picked apart by future Hall of Famers Shaun Hill, Wallace and JP Losman. My grandmother could shred an NFL defense with no pass rush on her.

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    [QUOTE=Toooon;3098361]Waste of time? What kind of obnoxious comment is that? FU.

    Listen, I totally disagree with you. This is a defense that barely got pressure - even in the first half our sacks came in bunches (many in garbage time) and the pressure was never consistent. Ever.

    Go watch the Arizona game. I think we turned them over like 6 times - and they STILL put 35 points on us. That meant that we never stopped them without a turnover. If you rely on turnovers, it eventually comes back to bite you (see: second half of the season). That Cardinal game was a clear sign (at least to me) of what was to come later in the season.

    I think you just outed yourself as the "anything but a fan crowd" with that comment about the secondary. The reason they were shredded is that we had no pass rush. With Jenkins down and nothing behind him, we had absolutely no defensive line to speak of. And our high-priced LBs Pace and Thomas were doing nothing in the 2nd half without Jenkins to clear a path.

    Go watch Seneca Wallace (of all people) spending 10 seconds at a time in the pocket. In the 2nd half of the season we were picked apart by future Hall of Famers Shaun Hill, Wallace and JP Losman. My grandmother could shred an NFL defense with no pass rush on her.[/QUOTE]


    Gotta love objective Jets fans. :yes:

    You are 100% correct.

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    We still lack a big-time pass rusher and depth on the D-line, Nose Tackle especially. Without Jenkins our defense is bottom 5. You can sign all the high-priced DB's you want but if you can't rush the passer fuggedaboutit.

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    Unfortunately, I'm going to have to go with no. Though the versatility of the defense might change quite a bit with Ryan as the coach though.

    Hell, you might even have some weird formations this year, like having an NT line up as an LB and having him rush the QB with a full head of steam. I can only imagine the cheers Jets fans would have if the NT of the Jets planted Tom Brady in the turf that way.

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    [QUOTE=VincenzoTestaverde;3098376]We still lack a big-time pass rusher and depth on the D-line, Nose Tackle especially. Without Jenkins our defense is bottom 5. You can sign all the high-priced DB's you want but if you can't rush the passer fuggedaboutit.[/QUOTE]

    Bottom 5 might be a bit harsh but we are not a top ten defense in this league. Need Depth at D-line and CB. and need a pass rushing LB. (I thought we drafted one last year):rolleyes:

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    [QUOTE=Jetfan_Johnny;3098389]Bottom 5 might be a bit harsh but we are not a top ten defense in this league. Need Depth at D-line and CB. and need a pass rushing LB. (I thought we drafted one last year):rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    I agree about d-line depth and pass rushing LB being the only two things separating us from having a great defense. Pass rushers are extremely hard to get so unless we can pull off a miracle and get Peppers we're stuck with Gholston and Bryan Thomas supplying the pass rush this season.

    We could add some decent depth at NT by drafting Ron Brace or trading for Gabe Watson. Both are upgrades over that scrub Pouha and could spell Jenkins.

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    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;3098087]This defense is much improved versus a year ago BUT still a ways off. The DBs are fine and there is a lot of depth. Thomas is not that good an LB. NT is ok IF they carefully rotate the three guys there. Jenkins must be rested. Greene and Pouha must contibute. DE is dreadful. Ellis has past his day. Coleman never was. Draft a DE (quick college DT) in the second unless we blow the whole draft reaching for Sanchez.[/QUOTE]
    the fact that sutton is no longer the d-coordinator is a huge improvment! you are right on by pointing out our weakness in the front seven.

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    [QUOTE=Toooon;3098361]Waste of time? What kind of obnoxious comment is that? FU.

    Listen, I totally disagree with you. This is a defense that barely got pressure - even in the first half our sacks came in bunches (many in garbage time) and the pressure was never consistent. Ever.

    Go watch the Arizona game. I think we turned them over like 6 times - and they STILL put 35 points on us. That meant that we never stopped them without a turnover. If you rely on turnovers, it eventually comes back to bite you (see: second half of the season). That Cardinal game was a clear sign (at least to me) of what was to come later in the season.

    I think you just outed yourself as the "anything but a fan crowd" with that comment about the secondary. The reason they were shredded is that we had no pass rush. With Jenkins down and nothing behind him, we had absolutely no defensive line to speak of. And our high-priced LBs Pace and Thomas were doing nothing in the 2nd half without Jenkins to clear a path.

    Go watch Seneca Wallace (of all people) spending 10 seconds at a time in the pocket. In the 2nd half of the season we were picked apart by future Hall of Famers Shaun Hill, Wallace and JP Losman. My grandmother could shred an NFL defense with no pass rush on her.[/QUOTE]

    A lot of accurate points here. It wasn't just Seneca Wallace picking us apart. It was Seneca Wallace behind a line of ALL second stringers. The fact that he wasn't on his ass all game was pretty telling.

    Even when we were getting sacks in the first half of the season, we still were not getting a consistent rush. Those sack #s were misleading.

    The main positive to come out of last year was our performance against the run. Up until (and through) the TN, our run D was legitimately excellent. Our pass rush, however, was pretty pedestrian, except for when we brought everybody.

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    [QUOTE=Toooon;3098361]


    Go watch the Arizona game. I think we turned them over like 6 times - and they STILL put 35 points on us. That meant that we never stopped them without a turnover. If you rely on turnovers, it eventually comes back to bite you (see: second half of the season). That Cardinal game was a clear sign (at least to me) of what was to come later in the season.
    [/QUOTE]
    Not true. We consistently pressured them in the first half and laid off in the second that's why they put up 35 points.

    [QUOTE]
    I think you just outed yourself as the "anything but a fan crowd" with that comment about the secondary. The reason they were shredded is that we had no pass rush. With Jenkins down and nothing behind him, we had absolutely no defensive line to speak of. And our high-priced LBs Pace and Thomas were doing nothing in the 2nd half without Jenkins to clear a path.
    [/QUOTE]

    Kinda true but it was our linebackers getting torn up in the intermediate passing game during the beginning of the seasons. Our corners were solid until Mangini decided that 4 mediocre coverage linebackers were better than 2. Then we had 3 man rushes that made every QB look like John Elway. At that point in the season a blitz was sending 4 pass rushers, I don't think I ever once saw Thomas and Pace blitz at the same time after the Titans game.

    [QUOTE]
    Go watch Seneca Wallace (of all people) spending 10 seconds at a time in the pocket. In the 2nd half of the season we were picked apart by future Hall of Famers Shaun Hill, Wallace and JP Losman. My grandmother could shred an NFL defense with no pass rush on her.[/QUOTE]

    That's why Gholston is the key. If he can become a pass rushing force then he will vastly improve this defense. He will allow for more elaborate schemes and demand double teams. This opens up other options. Ellis was solid until the 3 man rush fest started and even at this point in his career I think Ellis can abuse a one on one matchup.

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    [QUOTE=kdelgado;3098414]
    That's why Gholston is the key. If he can become a pass rushing force then he will vastly improve this defense. He will allow for more elaborate schemes and demand double teams. This opens up other options. Ellis was solid until the 3 man rush fest started and even at this point in his career I think Ellis can abuse a one on one matchup.[/QUOTE]

    Gholston sucks. I really don't expect anything from him next year. Actually wanted the Jets to trade for Jared Allen last year but they went with Gholston and he had a good college career playing against top competition like Jake Long and I said ok sounds good. Then I saw him do zippo and realized we got stuck with a sh*tbag.

    Gholston isn't going to give us a pass rush. If he does great but I really doubt he ever becomes effective unless we go back to a 4-3 and simplify things for him but that may not work either.

    I expect our run defense to be top notch next season but our pass defense will definitely be bottom 10. Brady, Brees, Ryan even Chad are all going to carve up our highly paid highly touted secondary.

    This is why we need a QB. Our offense is going to have to score some f'n points.

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    The seheme was adjusted drastically from the beginning of the season, THAT IS the main reason why we went from SECOND in sacks after SEVEN weeks to middle of the pack. Our D line is not the issue, D line depth, sure, but who has awesome d line depth? I just wasted 3 minutes of my life on this thread with teenagers.

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    [QUOTE=Toooon;3098361]Waste of time? What kind of obnoxious comment is that? FU.

    Listen, I totally disagree with you. This is a defense that barely got pressure - even in the first half our sacks came in bunches (many in garbage time) and the pressure was never consistent. Ever.

    Go watch the Arizona game. I think we turned them over like 6 times - and they STILL put 35 points on us. That meant that we never stopped them without a turnover. If you rely on turnovers, it eventually comes back to bite you (see: second half of the season). That Cardinal game was a clear sign (at least to me) of what was to come later in the season.

    I think you just outed yourself as the "anything but a fan crowd" with that comment about the secondary. The reason they were shredded is that we had no pass rush. With Jenkins down and nothing behind him, we had absolutely no defensive line to speak of. And our high-priced LBs Pace and Thomas were doing nothing in the 2nd half without Jenkins to clear a path.

    Go watch Seneca Wallace (of all people) spending 10 seconds at a time in the pocket. In the 2nd half of the season we were picked apart by future Hall of Famers Shaun Hill, Wallace and JP Losman. My grandmother could shred an NFL defense with no pass rush on her.[/QUOTE]

    +1 we need to relax with how good the d can be....wo jenkins this D is laughable.

    that hawks game....im still puking

  19. #19
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    If Gholston becomes the real deal
    If Jenkins stays in form all season
    If Ellis has another year in him
    If Lito returns to pro bowl form
    If there was a dominant pass rushing runstuffing 34 DE gem/pick in the draft
    If nobody gets hurt

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    [QUOTE=WeskerLogan;3098976]+1 we need to relax with how good the d can be....[B]wo jenkins t[/B][B]his D is laughable.
    [/B]
    that hawks game....im still puking[/QUOTE]


    Jenkins is the achilles heel of our defense, if he goes down with injury, or ends up once again, having the effectiveness of his play greatly diminished with two bulging discs in his back, the whole D collapses like a House of Cards.

    That's why I think we're B.J. Raji away from being a dominant defense. Charley Casserly suggested that Browns draft Raji to play NT, and slide Shaun Rogers to 3-4 DE. This would make their D line impossible to run on, and both would need to be double teamed. Same would be true if Jets could get Raji to play NT, and let Jenkins play 3-4 DE. Jenkins would take way less of a pounding at DE, and could possibly be able to get thru the season. Two huge athletic freaks like Jenkins and Raji playing together on the LOS...would make the defense sick.

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