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Thread: The Scouting Comine worthless?

  1. #1
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    The Scouting Comine worthless?

    I find the Combines entertaining, but man does ex-Jet & Pat Matt Chatham hammer the Scouting Combines!

    Interesting last paragraph of the article.... wonder which player he was referring to?:rolleyes:

    [url]http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2010/02/23/the-nfl-combine-the-joke-thats-no-longer-funny/[/url]

  2. #2
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    It's not worthless at all, there's just an overemphasis on the 40 yard dash by fans, media, and sometimes Front offices.

    Interview + Medicals are very important aspects of it but they just never get publicized because obviously it's not readily available to outsiders. Physical measurables are crucial for guys that have questions about athleticism. The position drills are also important.

    It's an essential event in the process, but it should be used to supplement information, not be the end-all be all like Al Davis makes it.

  3. #3
    Yeah let the Jets never make the Gholston mistake again. He was a workout warrior. Not a great football player.

  4. #4
    Vic Katchman of jaguars.com had a good story on how the combine started. it started out as a pretty rational idea...

    [url]http://www.jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=8754[/url]

    [quote]
    [b]Caleb from New Prague, MN[/b]
    Why even bother with the combine? Scouting of players should be done by watching them play football, not how fast they are or how many bench-press reps they can do. I would rather have the football player than the workout freak.

    [b]Vic:[/b] I agree with you, but you’re probably not aware of the history of the combine. The whole intent of the combine was to bring prospects to a central location for the purpose of conducting physical exams. The teams wanted to make sure they weren’t drafting guys who were medical rejects. For example, I’ve told the story of interviewing a rookie upon his arrival at training camp in 1972. He was a fourth-round pick and I saw that he was missing a couple of fingers. When I asked the personnel director about the missing fingers, he said, “What missing fingers?” So somebody had the bright idea of assembling the prospects for the docs and trainers to examine, and then somebody figured that since the prospects were already there, why not ask them to run and jump a little? Then they asked them if they’d run around cones, and then they asked them to diagram a few plays, and then “NFL Network” came along and said they could put it on TV and people would watch, and they did. That’s the craziest part about it all. People actually watch.
    [/quote]

  5. #5
    [QUOTE=BIGKIDD325;3506775]Yeah let the Jets never make the Gholston mistake again. He was a workout warrior. Not a great football player.[/QUOTE]

    Gholston had 23 career sacks in 3 years of college... including 2 against Jake Long he was not a pure workout warrior. And I still think he has a future... so maybe im just an irrational optimist.

  6. #6
    I agree with bitonti. I think Gholston needs to step up and put it all together this offseason though. He'll work hard, but he's gotta want it.


    In terms of the scouting combine, I think it does help coaches find guys that are extremely athletic yet they came from schools where they weren't coached properly. They can assess their upside due to proper coaching. That's important. I will say that the 40 is over dramatized. But didn't Chris Johnson run the fastest 40 at the combine? That's one of his best traits and if he hadn't run that fast I don't think he would have gone where he did... so maybe it's more important than people think.

    It is annoying that there are guys there that don't really love the game but they are good athletes and want to get paid to play football. That's not the problem of the combine, really the interviews should find out who wants it and who doesn't.

  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;3506799]Vic Katchman of jaguars.com had a good story on how the combine started. it started out as a pretty rational idea...

    [url]http://www.jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=8754[/url][/QUOTE]

    I do remember that the Jets were one of the last teams to participate in the Combines in Indy. I believe the late Jets GM Dick Steinberg insisted that they participate... Helped him find Blair Thomas!

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    [QUOTE=southside;3506803]I agree with bitonti. I think Gholston needs to step up and put it all together this offseason though. He'll work hard, but he's gotta want it.


    In terms of the scouting combine, I think it does help coaches find guys that are extremely athletic yet they came from schools where they weren't coached properly. They can assess their upside due to proper coaching. That's important. I will say that the 40 is over dramatized. But didn't Chris Johnson run the fastest 40 at the combine? That's one of his best traits and if he hadn't run that fast I don't think he would have gone where he did... so maybe it's more important than people think.

    It is annoying that there are guys there that don't really love the game but they are good athletes and want to get paid to play football. That's not the problem of the combine, really the interviews should find out who wants it and who doesn't.[/QUOTE]

    Gholston's fate will be at DE in a 3-4 Defense. Most likely in a situation, unfortunately, where not too much is expected from him, and where he's not making alot of money. And, probably not with the Jets.

  9. #9
    I would say that if people get overwhelmed by combine performances and start using those as a base then they are nuts. However it is still a useful tool even not including the physicals and interviews.

    Film, game play and drills should always rule in decision making but combine results can toss out red flags. If you are drafting a CB who has looked good on tap and the guy runs a 4.6 at the combine and 4.55 at his pro day it tosses up a bit of a flag if your team is playing a lot of man.

    If you have two prospects rated just about equally and one out performs the other in some of the categories that can be meaningful.

    Even the process of training for the combine and looking your best can give you an indication of whether the guy is prepared to work and play each week. (As opposed to guys who come in and have not prepared at all.)

    The combine is for sure overblown but it does have it's uses.

    ps: Chatham sucked and even guys teams think are 'football players' without the athletics to back them up can tank. (See the Boar Hunter)

  10. #10
    [QUOTE=Beerfish;3506817]ps: Chatham sucked and even guys teams think are 'football players' without the athletics to back them up can tank. (See the Boar Hunter)[/QUOTE]

    But Schlegal kept popping up on the game film....:D

    That was a really hard 3rd round to stomach. They wasted some big picks there. They should have traded up instead of just blowing the picks.

  11. #11
    [QUOTE=bitonti;3506800]Gholston had 23 career sacks in 3 years of college... including 2 against Jake Long he was not a pure workout warrior. And I still think he has a future... so maybe im just an irrational optimist.[/QUOTE]

    Agreed vernon was far from just a combine freak he put up numbers in college. His measurables unfortunatly washed away all the questions about his desire to be a great player. And im guessing the mangini reference with a coy of combine stats is about gholston

  12. #12
    remember when the doctors found Cedric Houston's thyroid problem at the combine a few years ago? he was all like "so that's why I was so tired"

    these guys never get a medical exam as thorough as what they will get at the combine... these college team doctors aren't that great as a group.

    so between medical exams, drug tests, interviews and wonderlic... the 40 yard dash is almost an afterthought... it's the stuff that goes on behind the scenes that really impacts the draft.

    also RE: 40 yard dash they make all the guys run it but the big guys all the stop watches are at the 10 yard line... that first 10 yard split is very important for all positions that aren't CB, WR, RB

  13. #13
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    It's just a measuring stick to determine who the best athletes are. And that has a very important function in determining who the best prospects are.

    No way should combine numbers trump 3 or 4 years of game tape. But as Beerfish said, those numbers allow teams to separate players who might be about equal.

  14. #14
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    [QUOTE=TheMikeIsHot;3506826]It's just a measuring stick to determine who the best athletes are. And that has a very important function in determining who the best prospects are.

    No way should combine numbers trump 3 or 4 years of game tape. But as Beerfish said, those numbers allow teams to separate players who might be about equal.[/QUOTE]

    bingo- the greatest value of the combine is what the NFL network doesn't show and what you won't read about (except on this forum :D)....it is the medical tests, background history, player interviews, psychological tests, etc....

    the bigger issue with bad draft picks is not teams selecting guys on the basis of a workout- its the coaches, who've watched these guys at two or three practices at the Senior Bowl, speak with them at the combine then watch them workout at the combine say, "I GOTTA HAVE THAT GUY", dismissing the work of the scouting department...

    hate to bring this up but any irony Parcells was a favor of the latter then when he left the Pats the organization went on a tear???
    Last edited by Come Back to NY; 02-24-2010 at 10:30 AM.

  15. #15
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    lets just stipulate that Gholston is a bust for argument's sake


    OK

    Mike Tannenbaum -- drafting 2006-2009 (with that stipulation) is still the best drafter in the National Football League

    Ferguson, Mangold, Washington, the Smiths, Coleman, Revis, Harris, Keller, Lowery, Sanchez, Greene

    BEST in the business

  16. #16
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    How about Derek Strait? He was the best corner in college his senior year. So if there is no combine, he is probably a 1st round pick.

    His combine numbers were not good, and he fell down the draft board till the 3rd round.

    In this case, the combine worked against a good college player.

    So it works both ways.

  17. #17
    [QUOTE=Joe W. Namath;3506947]How about Derek Strait? He was the best corner in college his senior year. So if there is no combine, he is probably a 1st round pick.

    His combine numbers were not good, and he fell down the draft board till the 3rd round.

    In this case, the combine worked against a good college player.

    So it works both ways.[/QUOTE]

    And justifiably so as he was a big flop in the long run.

  18. #18
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    He's just bitter he wasn't drafted.

  19. #19
    [QUOTE=Yankeejet22;3506738]I find the Combines entertaining, but man does ex-Jet & Pat Matt Chatham hammer the Scouting Combines!

    Interesting last paragraph of the article.... wonder which player he was referring to?:rolleyes:

    [url]http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/newengland/football/patriots/2010/02/23/the-nfl-combine-the-joke-thats-no-longer-funny/[/url][/QUOTE]

    I've never undurstood the 40 for OL DL LB's I sorry but if a DL and LB have to run 40 yards they did not do there job to begin with.

  20. #20
    [QUOTE=Joe W. Namath;3506947]How about Derek Strait? He was the best corner in college his senior year. So if there is no combine, he is probably a 1st round pick.

    His combine numbers were not good, and he fell down the draft board till the 3rd round.

    In this case, the combine worked against a good college player.

    So it works both ways.[/QUOTE]

    It worked against Terrell Suggs to. He had a bad 40 and dropped to middle of 1 round. If a LB has to run 40 yards he did not do his job to begin with its the first 10 yards that matter in timing

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