Not much to add that hasn't already been said, so I'll focus on the title "Be careful what you wish for" . . .
1) All Jet fans knew we needed a better option opposite Revis. I don't know what REALISTIC alternative would have been better than Cromartie. You can quote stats all you want, but the fact is he's never played opposite a stud like Revis, and his best year of production came when he was in an attacking style of defense like the Jets employ. He may not be "shutdown", but you'd be hard-pressed to say he's not a legit #1 CB. Will he pan out? Time will tell. But we DEFINITELY got "what we wished for" and don't see how the Jets could have played that one any better.
2) Will Rhodes be a mistake? Possibly. I don't know too many Jet fans who are HAPPY to see him go, but if the CS doesn't feel he's the "right guy", at least we got an above-average replacement (IF he stays healthy), additional draft picks, and some cap-room for the players we DO want to build around. If you're honest, you'd agree Jet fans aren't doing cartwheels over this one, but rather trusting the FO to turn it into a positive move.
3) LT is a bad pickup if Greene goes down, but a better COMPLIMENT to Greene if he stays healthy. I don't think the FO can go in EXPECTING things to go wrong. They signed the player who brings an added dimension to the offense, and if things don't go according to plan, they'll have to improvise -- like EVERY FO. But the attention people are giving a BACKUP RB is really getting ridiculous.
4) Unlike the Pats, who are mostly entrenched in their system, the Jets had a rookie QB, a rookie coach, MAJOR players injured (Jenks/Leon) . . . the argument could be made that they will be better BY DEFAULT, nevermind the additions that have been/will be made in the offseason.
Tried to give a legitimate response to a (hopefully) legitimate thread. This upcoming season should be a fun one. You guys have the experience (which can't be understated) . . . hopefully we have the hunger to get there.:yes:
Cromartie is an absolute upgrade over Lito, that isn't even close, IMO. AC is built for man coverage, he has the god given ability to play man to man that not many can match. It made absolutely no sense to ask him to play zone. It's like asking Leon to block more.
Rhodes was a good player here, and I wasn't one of the guys happy to see him go. But Pool has some ability and could be a quality contributor as a coverage FS, mainly playing passing downs. He won't be as good as Rhodes, but I don't think it will be a monumental drop in play either. Add the 4th rounder, and this is a move that very well could improve the team.
The TJ to LT move is one that really makes sense to me the more I think about it. Once you face the fact that both guys have already played their best football and will not be the RBs they once were, think about the style of play that each brings. TJ is a one-dimensional back while LT has a more well-rounded game. LT can, and I think he will, thrive in a secondary role at this point in his career. With a few holes, he can pick up solid chunks of yardage. Add in a screen pass or a dumpoff, and he will be just fine.
I'd say the Jets certainly improved the talent of the roster and will be better in both the immediate future and in the long run.
In summation, you should expect the following retorts (I didn't read the replies, just your post).
1. Cromartie will be better because:
a) he will now play mostly man to man, whereas he was playing zone before. Rex admitted he was a poor zone player and claims he won't have to do that here (Jets Confidential newspaper)
b) he does not replace REVIS, he replaces LITO SHEPPARD. He is now a "1B" whereas Lito was completely washed up and got burnt like toast. He is most certainly an upgrade.
c) it will be a contract year; I believe he only signed a 1 yr deal (correct me if I'm wrong). People like Cro tend to try harder when needed, which is pathetic, but they do. It's only their day job.
2. Pool will be solid because:
a) he will be part of a rotation, and while he may start he will probably play 70% of snaps at most. Therefore he will be fresh and his chances for injury diminish.
b) Kerry rhodes may have been good by the numbers, but he had to be BENCHED to PLAY BETTER. Freaking pathetic. He has all the physical talent of a basketball athlete who can probably pick a quarter off the top ledge of the backboard. He can probably, in one jump, stick his ass into the basketball hoop and sit there for a while. Yet, he hates contact. He is an Interception Acrobat, above average at blitzing, and a guy who takes plays off and arm-tackles. Statistics tend to lie in the case of a "good football player."
3. LT will be a solid addition because:
A) the Jets have a RB rotation, keeping each other fresh.
B) LT will probably be asked to catch the ball in space more than simply run into the line
C) the Jets O-Line is not to be mentioned in the same sentence with San Diego's O-Line. Jets are top-3; SD's is mediocre when not injured, horrible when injured.
D) Sanchez will need a safety valve, similar to how the Giants use Bradshaw on passing downs. LT is well-suited to that role.
I'm not saying all are true; I'm just saying that these are the lines you'll hear. The only way some will be true will be to see them in the fall. Therefore they can't really be presented as solid evidence but they seem pretty "evident" at this point.
First let me start by a nod of appreciation with 95% of the responders, who took the time to make the case in a positive light to these acquisition. Even SG3 responded with wit instead of his usual bitterness.
[QUOTE]First of all, don't assume the Jets will sit still with these three acquisitions, particularly Poole and LT. We'll find out pretty quickly if Cromartie was a victim of San Diego's defensive schemes and was poorly utilized. No doubt about his physical skills.[/QUOTE]
Well, LIL, when you get to this level its hard to doubt ANYONE'S physical skills, but 6'2 CB is rare even in the NFL. But you have to question production even in a different system. If there is a positive, its the fact that you got him at good price, so your risk is low. But that in an of itself should tell you something.
If I can go off topic for a second. The Mays kid from USC showed freakish physical skills at the combine, but his production numbers don't come close to matching his skills. I'm sure there are a lot of guys here who would love if the Jets get a chance to draft him. There are many Pats fans who hope he falls to #22. Yet I'm quite ambivalent because of his relative lack of production.
[QUOTE]Poole is a guy who gives us some breathing space to move forward from Rhodes, but is unlikely to be the long-term solution at safety. He's a decent replacement. I wouldn't say more.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough and well said
[QUOTE] LT is an interesting case. As a feature back, I would agree he's done. As a utility back we have every reason to be optimistic that he will fill a useful role in a different running back system than the Jets used last year, when Jones was the workhorse. I took a look at the trend charts for YPC of about 20-25 well-known backs over the last few decades and I found something interesting. YPC don't generally drop in the later years. Carries do. An elite back with half the workload can very often still generate very good performance. I would be unhappy with the idea of LT being a feature back at this point, but I don't see that happening. The Jets did not bring him in to "replace" the TJ of last year. They brought him in to complement a different backfield with different balance points. Can't compare apples to oranges....[/QUOTE]
I agree with part of this comment. LT's YPC has dropped precipitously over the last few years. His YPC in 2009 was only 3.3 and I saw a post that cited a foutballoutsiders who charted his carries against 8 in the box situations, and he was a LEAGUE LOW at 1.9 ypc. A full half yard lower than the next worst runner. (btw, if you want I'll try and find it)
But I do agree that older RBs CAN thrive in limited situations. Kevin Faulk is a perfect example, who in his mid 30's still averages over 5 ypc and is very effective in the passing game. But I think you already have a BETTER option for THAT role in LWashington (if healthy). In fact, IMHO he'd be Faulk's perfect replacement for the Pats in 2011
BOTTOM LINE - If Washington is on the team than LT's role would be as the #2 RB and a big skill drop off from Green, who should be a bigger issue just because of his injury history. So I guess there is a place for LT, but its no more of a big deal than Sammy Morris being on the Pats and I'm sure there isn't a Jet fan on the board who misses any sleep because Sammy Morris is on the Pats (and he averaged 4.4 ypc) ;)
[QUOTE=patsfanken;3528707]I agree with part of this comment. LT's YPC has dropped precipitously over the last few years. His YPC in 2009 was only 3.3 and I saw a post that cited a foutballoutsiders who charted his carries against 8 in the box situations, and he was a LEAGUE LOW at 1.9 ypc. A full half yard lower than the next worst runner. (btw, if you want I'll try and find it)[/QUOTE]
Apples and oranges.
You're talking about LT running behind a line that's built to create a pocket for Philip Rivers.
The Jets line is built to get to the second level.
LT could jump on Mangold's back and still manage more YPC than Sammy fuggin Morris :rolleyes:
I actually looked up Lito's stats and somewhat surprisingly found that they were JUST AS BAD as Cromartie's. 28 tackles, 1 pick, and 9 passes defended. But didn't Lito miss several games (I don't know how many). IIRC Cromartie needed all 16 games to amass his horrid numbers (30, 3 and 10)
Remember when Shepard came to the Jets, he also had a great (all Pro) Year previously. He also played in an aggressive D in Philly. He also never came close to playing at that all pro level.
BTW- do you think he would be back with the Jets if he didn't have that big bonus coming?
You're talking about LT running behind a line that's built to create a pocket for Philip Rivers.
The Jets line is built to get to the second level.
LT could jump on Mangold's back and still manage more YPC than Sammy fuggin Morris :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
That OL could very well be ANOTHER question. 2 fifths of it is getting old, even for offensive linemen. Woody and Faneca aren't just entering their 30's, they are well past that. And while OL skills deteriorate more slowly than skilled players, the probability of injuries DON'T. Do Jet fans even know who is backing up Faneca and Woody???? And do they know how lucky they are that their OL hasn't lost a game to injury in the last THREE years (IIRC) I can't say the same for my Pats
[QUOTE=patsfanken;3528222]I post this to offer an alternative....and not so rosy.... picture of the acquisitions that that Jets have made thus far in this off season. Much has been said, and by and large the Jets FO has been praised for their aggressive actions to improve a team that was one game away from the superbowl.
Let me state up front that I agree that Jet fans have every right to be thrilled with last year's team. They have every right to be optimistic, or even wildly optimistic about the upcoming year. The Jets SHOULD BE considered the frontrunner in the AFCE coming into the 2010 season.
That being said, lets look at the 3 most significant acquisitions and losses that the Jets have made this off season....SO FAR (because I believe that what rosters look like today, and what they will look like in late Aug, can change dramatically)
1. Antonio Cromartie - On the surface this looks like a huge upgrade. Who wouldn't love to have one of the rarest commodities in the NFL, a tall CB with big play skills. However what Jet fans have NOT considered is the lack of PRODUCTION that comes with that pretty package.
Even in his one "productive" year, a closer examination finds that 8 of the 10 picks he made came against 4 QBs who were never starters again or are now out of the league. And in every year since that time his game has regressed to the point where last season the 2 most telling stat he had were his 30 tackles and 10 passes defended.
Like I said, a tall athletically talented CB is one of the rarest commodities in the NFL, why then would SD give up such a gem, especially to the team that knocked it out of the playoffs last season.
Does the phrase looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane sound familiar. It was a phrase often used unfairly by disgruntled Pats fans to describe Ben Watson, who in reality was a decent all round TE, just not a great one. He also had the misfortune to be the 32nd pick his year, and thus labelled a first rounder. Had be been the 33nd pick, and a "2nd rounder" expectations would have been lower (go figure). But the point is that Watson had all the physical tools you could ask for in a TE, speed, size, and willingness, yet for some reason, he couldn't put it together to get to the "next' level. (plus the Pats offense since 2007, doesn't seem to value the TE as a receiver like some)
But "expectations" is what this post is all about. Its also about the gap between "image and reality", and physical skill vs football production. The facts are that Cromartie IS NOT the potential shut down CB that "some" Jet fans are predicting. He IS NOT going to suddenly make the Jet secondary invincible, and IMHO there even the question if he is even going to be an upgrade on the late and UNlamented Lito Shepard.who missed several games to injury and STILL had very similar stats. (28 tackles and 9 passes defended)
2. Brodney Pool - I don't know much about Poole, except for the poster who used some site's stats that claimed that he was the 6th best S in the league. I have to admit that this was pretty impressive, until I noticed that the SECOND best S in the league (at least according to this site) was the late and equally unlamented Kerry Rhodes. :rolleyes:
So how is this an upgrade????? I don't think you can have it both ways. Either Poole is the 6th best S in the league and the Jets released the 2nd best, or that site's ratings are worthless. And the only way to rationalize it as an upgrade is to SPECULATE that in a different defensive system, Poole will somehow elevate his game beyond what Phodes gave you.
In reality it was just a mid level pick up of an NFL quality player who was deemed expendable by his former team. You filled position of need with a body, but it can hardly be called an upgrade
3. LT - Congrats, you just picked up a future HOFer, and you will have the opportunity to see (though very rarely) why he will be inducted in Canton Ohio. Consider your experience similar to that of Cardinal fans who saw the rare examples of brilliance that Emmit Smith flashed in his 2 years of relative unproductive play with the Birds before he finally gave it up.
The stats, the history, and what you can see with your own eyes, tell you that LT is a FORMERLY great RB, but someone who just has nothing left. He is not going to surplant Green as your main running back, he will merely take away snaps from him AND Leon Washington (IF he remains and IF he is healthy). Two RBs who are far more dangerous than LT.
In fact when you look at the Jets RB situation, I would find it far from comforting. You are all counting on Green to be your main running threat, yet wasn't he hurt THREE different times during the course of his rookie season, and wasn't his injury history one of the reason's he slipped in the draft. That can hardly be comforting despite his obvious running talents.
And when you add the fact that your 2 back ups are the washed up LT and the damaged Leon. That's HARDLY a good situation for a team is a run first NFL offense. And an impossible situation, especially given that your team was 2-8 in games where your QB was forced to throw the ball over 22 times.
When you respond, please respond to the issues and questions presented. Forget my username and DON'T compare it to the Pats situation. That is NOT what this post is about. Its about the JETS, and THEIR acquisitions and current situation. I'm looking for reasonable responses for the questions I raised about the players the Jets have picked up since FA began. Any comparisons about what the Pats have done vs what the Jets have done should be the subject of separate thread.
OK now that that is settled......fire away. ;)[/QUOTE]
Why don't you and your loquacious pahtna DWC get a room.
Your lame attempt at undermining our offseason moves smells like fear.
[QUOTE=Pac2566;3528731]Why don't you and your loquacious pahtna DWC get a room.
Your lame attempt at undermining our offseason moves smells like fear.[/QUOTE]
Its really borderline ridiculous.
PFK, and PatsTrolly have this thing where they post regarding the BIG QUESTIONS, and IFFY SIGNINGS of the NYJets, and try to do it in a decent way, so they look victimized when they get attacked here by ....guess what.....Jets fans.
How can anything be determined at this point in time? The only thing that we as fans can look at is the previous season, where our Jets made it to the AFC title game.
All of this WHAT IF, and STATMASHING, is just lame.
What response do they hope for by posting this crappola on a Jets website?
[QUOTE=patsfanken;3528730]That OL could very well be ANOTHER question. 2 fifths of it is getting old, even for offensive linemen. Woody and Faneca aren't just entering their 30's, they are well past that. And while OL skills deteriorate more slowly than skilled players, the probability of injuries DON'T. [B]Do Jet fans even know who is backing up Faneca and Woody???? [/B]And do they know how lucky they are that their OL hasn't lost a game to injury in the last THREE years (IIRC) I can't say the same for my Pats[/QUOTE]
That's a pretty silly question to ask on this board, isn't it?
Turner, Hunter and Slauson are our main depth.
You're really just grasping at straws. If I told you last season that Kris Jenkins would go down, you'd laugh at Devito and Pouha and tell me we're in deep sh!t.
So I really could care less what your evaluations on the Jets depth are.
[QUOTE=JetsMakeMeCry;3528749]all op's points are valid. all these guys have both positives and negatives. [B]we did not acquire any sure fire, can't miss free agents.[/B] sometimes you have to roll the dice if you want to get better.[/QUOTE]
I dont think these exist. Even playmakers that sign elsewhere in free agency often times regress. Ur right.....roll the dice and see what happens.
At least the Jets are rolling the dice. The Pats seem to be content holding the dice in their hand.
[QUOTE=JetsMakeMeCry;3528749]all op's points are valid. all these guys have both positives and negatives. we did not acquire any sure fire, can't miss free agents. sometimes you have to roll the dice if you want to get better.[/QUOTE]
precisely. thanks for your words of caution ken, sometimes you win (Dillon) sometimes not (Taylor) but it's simple risk calculation like just about anything else in life (this response included) Moss, Mason worked for the Patriots & Ravens respectively while Boston (Miami) and Holt (Jacksonville) didn't really mesh but you simply have to decide what's worth it and I trust Tannanbaum enough to understand this.
I'll accept risky moves over not making any at all, like the Pats. Their only new acquisition this offseason has been a player right off the Jet's scrap heap, Marques Murrell. WTF are they doing in Foxboro?