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Thread: Shortcomings of Libertarianism

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;3769008]I wonder what would happen if you were a renter and your landlord didn't pay?

    Just weird to show up and watch a house burn :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    Or your payment got lost in the mail.
    Or you didn't keep your receipt.
    Or some stupid govt worker didn't enter you as a paying customer (one for you, southpark ;) )

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=Jet_Engine1;3769155]On the flip side of this issue in regards to the poilitical, there are the municipal officials all over the country who deride and despise the "civil Servants" of their communities - Cops and Firefighters. The SEIU wants Cops and firefighters to make the same $$$ and pensions as janitors and parks employees, and I've heard City and County commissioners here in Florida express the opinion that they don't NEED Fire Departments....that it would be "cheaper to just rebuild the houses that burn down rather than have a Fire Department."

    Of course, the simple response from Firefighters, "Okay, but do you want [B]YOUR [/B]children and [B]YOUR[/B] families in those houses?" usually shuts them up.

    Point being, Police and especially Fire Departments are constantly defending their budgets from cuts while being expected to do more with less. Our department is currently a good deal below minimum staffing, with more cuts to come, and no, we do NOT have an "irresponsible pension". My department has a pension which every member pays 19.4% into every paycheck and currently the fund is at a healthy 90% funded - and thats with a 10 year timeframe in order to just get vested.

    I know fire departments all over the country are under attack for their irresponsible pensions (California, Northeast, Miami-Dade), but are also getting budgets cut and employees laid off, but are still expected to do everything from the mundane to the incredibly dangerous while politicians from both sides tell us and the public how greedy and lazy we are....its a tough place to be in, and those arseholes don't help.[/QUOTE]

    We are in a recession. Companies and families who aren't public employees are doing more with less resources, employees and pay. That's the reality of a recession. Tax revenue falls and that means the public sector has to do with less also.

    Stop making it so personal. I make less money, my health care costs have gone up and the amount I can put in my pension goes down when the economy isn't doing as well. I don't view this as anybody trying to get me, I view it as the reality that in a down economy my labor is worth less money.

    At the end of the day we can afford what we can afford and the fact is municipalities, cities and states are going broke because their citizens can't afford tax increases when their income is going down.

    Supply and demand matters even in the world of Public Unions. Less money means either you take less or less of you do more or you do something else.

    We need fire and police but again how much of it depends on more than need, it depends on what we can afford and clearly in the current environment we can afford less than we could when things were great.

    Everyone in the private sector who has a self directed pension had their retirenment payout reduced. The public sector is asking those same people to make up the difference in their pensions so they don't take less down the line.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 10-07-2010 at 01:16 PM.

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;3769977]We are in a recession.[/QUOTE]

    the recession ended in June 2009. we are in a (slow) recovery.

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;3770028]the recession ended in June 2009. we are in a (slow) recovery.[/QUOTE]

    I'm cool with that we should still take public pensions down the 50% that was lost by everyone else including the public pensions themselves during the meltdown.

    It was wrong to gurantee the banks, Fannie and Freddie why should these under funded liabilities by guranteed?

    When unemployment is high tax revenue falls and labor is worth less money.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 10-07-2010 at 04:14 PM.

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;3770028]the recession ended in June 2009. we are in a (slow) recovery.[/QUOTE]

    you need to add a ;) to that post. :rolleyes:

  6. #26
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    You don't get the issue here.

    Libertarians advocate that all public services, fire, police, ems, etc. should be private organizations that citizens pay for.

    This local Tennesse fire department is government organization, that the citizens already pay for, why the hell should they have to pay an additional fee for the fire department to assist them?

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=Ha Ha Ha;3771152]
    Libertarians advocate that all public services, fire, police, ems, etc. should be private organizations that citizens pay for.
    [/QUOTE]

    another bonehead idea. Trash day on Main Street would be a disaster because 14 trash trucks were all trying to collect at once. But the homeowners all got great deals!

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;3771175]another bonehead idea. Trash day on Main Street would be a disaster because 14 trash trucks were all trying to collect at once. But the homeowners all got great deals![/QUOTE]

    Have you ever been to NYC?????

    Plenty of businesses use private carting companies to remove their trash instead of the City.

    It's not as bad as you think. I walk my dog at all kinds of hours, and on the main drag of my neighborhood in Brooklyn, you can see over 10 different garbage trucks prowling the streets on trash night.

    It doesn't bother anyone and this has been in effect for decades in NYC.

  9. #29
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    It's the fendamental answer to every question for a guy like Bit.

    [U]Question:[/U] Anything.

    [U]Answer:[/U] More Government, Higher Taxes.

    There is no problem for which Governement is not the solution for the Bitonti's of the world. A VERY Euro ideal.

  10. #30
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    this is why no one takes it seriously

    another shortcoming of libertarianism

    [quote]

    [B]Tennessee family home burns while firefighters watch[/B]

    [IMG]http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/thesideshow/TNhome.jpg[/IMG]

    A Tennessee couple helplessly watched their home burn to the ground, along with all of their possessions, because they did not pay a $75 annual fee to the local fire department.

    Vicky Bell told the NBC affiliate WPSD-TV that she called 911 when her mobile home in Obion County caught fire. Firefighters arrived on the scene but as the fire raged, they simply stood by and did nothing. "In an emergency, the first thing you think of, 'Call 9-1-1," homeowner Bell said. However, Bell and her husband were forced to walk into the burning home in an attempt to retrieve their own belongings. "You could look out my mom's trailer and see the trucks sitting at a distance," Bell said. "We just wished we could've gotten more out."


    South Fulton Mayor David Crocker defended the fire department, saying that if firefighters responded to non-subscribers, no one would have an incentive to pay the fee. Residents in the city of South Fulton receive the service automatically, but it is not extended to those living in the greater county-wide area.

    "There's no way to go to every fire and keep up the manpower, the equipment, and just the funding for the fire department," Crocker said.

    The South Fulton policy produced precisely the same nightmare scenario last year, when homeowner Gene Cranick--who had likewise failed to pay the $75 annual fee for rural Obion County residents--saw his house engulfed by flames as South Fulton firefighter watched close by. That incident sparked a debate among conservative pundits over the limits of fee-for-service approaches to government.

    For his part, Mayor Crocker stressed that the city's firefighters will help people in danger, even those who haven't paid the fee. "After the last situation, I would hope that everybody would be well aware of the rural fire fees, this time," Crocker said.

    [url]http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/tennessee-family-home-burns-while-firefighters-watch-191241763.html[/url]
    [/quote]

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4267573]another shortcoming of libertarianism[/QUOTE]

    No it's not, but don't let that get in your way.:rolleyes:

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4267573]another shortcoming of libertarianism[/QUOTE]

    Wow.

    That's the second time this happened in this same town. Couldn't they just put it out and bill/fine them? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do?

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;3768491]no one wants to pay for government

    until they need the government[/QUOTE]

    Only a liberal would take an example of government failure and hold it up as an example of how libertarianism is the problem.

    Seriously, if this is the best you can do, you are lost.

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;3771175]another bonehead idea. Trash day on Main Street would be a disaster because 14 trash trucks were all trying to collect at once. But the homeowners all got great deals![/QUOTE]

    My grandparents lived in Stroudsburg PA and they had private garbage pickup. It was very orderly and clean. Funny part is my grandparents would leave something like $1.50 under the front mat on their porch every garbage day for the pickup.

    As for the article the way I read it is that in town people don't pay yearly outside of taxes. This was a special deal for out of town, rural protection. We have some towns like that here in Northern NJ. The town pays the next town for fire and school and the state for police. It works when the number of houses can't pay for their own departments.

    The flaw in this instance is showing up and watching the house burn. There is nothing Libertarian about that. Charging after the fact is Libertarian but the fire department wouldn't accept that option and should be charged with negligence under the good samaritan laws.

    In my area we have many "vollunteer" fire departments but towns are close together so often the pay department from the next town over gets there first. No one stands around watching anything burn. Also the volunteers do get support from the town such as paying for the building repairs or help buying new trucks.

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=Traitor Jay & the Woodies;4267653]Only a liberal would take an example of government failure and hold it up as an example of how libertarianism is the problem.

    Seriously, if this is the best you can do, you are lost.[/QUOTE]

    This wasn't a failure of government. This was a failure on the part of the homeowner.

    One of the tenants of libertarianism is individualism and the ability to take care of yourself. These people expected a free government handout in the form of water to put out their burning double-wide.

    Where do we draw a line? Should every get FREE fire extinguishing care? Or should people pull themselves up by the bootstraps and put out their own fires?

    In this case, government worked perfectly. The people only have themselves to blame.

  16. #36
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    there's a reason why libertarianism is well loved on the internet but abandoned in real life. It doesn't really work.

    for as bad as the current capitalism D/R two party system is... for all you hate about it

    Libertarianism is actually worse. It's basically anarchy under the guise of self-responsibility.

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4267721]there's a reason why libertarianism is well loved on the internet but abandoned in real life. It doesn't really work.

    for as bad as the current capitalism D/R two party system is... for all you hate about it

    Libertarianism is actually worse. It's basically anarchy under the guise of self-responsibility.[/QUOTE]

    If anecdotal evidence against practices minorities of political parties supported, were really grounds for abandonment of the system... we really would be an anarchy. Ironic isn't it?

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=Trades;4267693]the fire department wouldn't accept that option and should be charged with negligence under [b]the good samaritan laws.[/b]
    [/QUOTE]

    hmm more laws... sounds very un-libertarian

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4267721]there's a reason why libertarianism is well loved on the internet but abandoned in real life. It doesn't really work.

    for as bad as the current capitalism D/R two party system is... for all you hate about it

    Libertarianism is actually worse. It's basically anarchy under the guise of self-responsibility.[/QUOTE]...sorry,bit...big stretch=bad analogy...

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=2foolish197;4267764]...sorry,bit...big stretch=bad analogy...[/QUOTE]

    [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDv4sYwjO0[/url]

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