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Thread: I've Had a Turnaround -- "Death" Panels

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    I've Had a Turnaround -- "Death" Panels

    In reading alot and hearing alot on radio of late regarding these Government "Death Panels", I've come to a conclusion that the right, is wrong, on much of this one.

    End-of-Life Consultive Care, i.e. where you are, whats coming, what options exist, and how best to deal with it all, is something I think is not only good, but vital. Ignorance of where one is and what options exist is never good, and providing patients with all the information available is a great idea.

    With the caveat that the consult does not change the level of care the patient recieves. I'm far less supportive of health-care rationing, a different (if related) issue.

    For me, the bemoaning on End-of-Life Consultations screams out of head-in-sand denial the same way the rights view of Sex and Reproductive Education does. The right, on this, simply want the topic to go away, rathjer than have an educated and informed populace, and I can't support that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    In reading alot and hearing alot on radio of late regarding these Government "Death Panels", I've come to a conclusion that the right, is wrong, on much of this one.

    End-of-Life Consultive Care, i.e. where you are, whats coming, what options exist, and how best to deal with it all, is something I think is not only good, but vital. Ignorance of where one is and what options exist is never good, and providing patients with all the information available is a great idea.

    With the caveat that the consult does not change the level of care the patient recieves. I'm far less supportive of health-care rationing, a different (if related) issue.

    For me, the bemoaning on End-of-Life Consultations screams out of head-in-sand denial the same way the rights view of Sex and Reproductive Education does. The right, on this, simply want the topic to go away, rathjer than have an educated and informed populace, and I can't support that.

    You watch...Kervorkian will be looked upon in 25 years as WAY ahead of his time. I don't feel strongly either way but if someone wants to "off themselves" with family consent etc.... I see nothing wrong with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    In reading alot and hearing alot on radio of late regarding these Government "Death Panels", I've come to a conclusion that the right, is wrong, on much of this one.

    End-of-Life Consultive Care, i.e. where you are, whats coming, what options exist, and how best to deal with it all, is something I think is not only good, but vital. Ignorance of where one is and what options exist is never good, and providing patients with all the information available is a great idea.

    With the caveat that the consult does not change the level of care the patient recieves. I'm far less supportive of health-care rationing, a different (if related) issue.

    For me, the bemoaning on End-of-Life Consultations screams out of head-in-sand denial the same way the rights view of Sex and Reproductive Education does. The right, on this, simply want the topic to go away, rathjer than have an educated and informed populace, and I can't support that.
    that's fine....but don't just target medicare patients....make sure medicaid patients are the first subject to the death panels considering the overall drain on societal resources.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Come Back to NY View Post
    that's fine....but don't just target medicare patients....make sure medicaid patients are the first subject to the death panels considering the overall drain on societal resources.....
    So you want them to be the first to get End-of-Life-Care Consults?

    You DO realize that no one is going to actually be killed, right? And that it's quite possible to seperate care from consult? One does not have to be tied to the other, and nothing about the consults means they have to push suicide or the like?

    It seems the general belief out there is that this policy is one where a Doc simply kills a patient who's old. Not sure where that coems from, but that doesn;t seem the case in my readings at all.

    "Death panels" is a term coined in August 2009 on the Facebook page of former Governor of Alaska Sarah Palin suggesting that health care legislation being debated in the U.S. Congress contained a rationing provision for seniors and the disabled, though there was no such term or explicit provision in the bill.[1] The term quickly gained popularity among opponents of the legislation.

    PolitiFact.com called Palin's use of the death panel term the "Lie of the Year",[2] but Palin explained she had employed it as a metaphor for reduced access and diminished quality of care that she believed would follow the enactment of the federal legislation.[3]

    The American Dialect Society, a group of English language scholars, defined death panel in January 2010 as a "supposed committee of doctors and/or bureaucrats who would decide which patients were allowed to receive treatment, ostensibly leaving the rest to die".[4] Benjamin W. Corn, a physician specializing in the treatment of cancer, wrote that the controversy over the term death panel showed that a national dialogue was needed on end of life issues.[5]

    Provision identified by the charge

    Rep. Earl Blumenauer, sponsor of a similar provision[28]When asked exactly what part of the proposed legislation[29] mandated death panels, Palin's spokesperson pointed to H.R. 3200, section 1233 Advance Care Planning Consultation page 425.[18] The provision would have allowed physicians to receive payment from Medicare for voluntary counseling with patients and family members regarding end-of-life issues. The counseling would cover topics such as making living wills, enabling a close relative or a trusted friend to make health care decisions, hospice as an option for the terminally ill, and information about pain medications for chronic discomfort. The sessions would have been covered by Medicare every five years or more frequently for patients who became gravely ill.[28] The provision was inserted in the bill by Democratic lawmakers at the behest of LaCross Wisconsin hospitals that had created a program to get people who were not critically ill, to think about and choose the treatments they would want at the end of life.[30][31] Before H.R. 3200, Representative Earl Blumenauer (Democrat-Oregon) had submitted single purpose legislation with cosponsor Republican Charles Boustany (Republican, Louisiana), a cardiovascular surgeon, that similarly provided for Medicare payments for end-of-life counseling;[32][31] earlier bills in preceding years had also been submitted with bi-partisan support.[citation needed]

    Consultation payments were removed from the Senate version of the bill[33] while remaining in the House version until November 2009, when they passed, but they did not pass in the final bill.[34] On December 25, 2010, The New York Times reported that a new Medicare regulation had been added by Donald Berwick that will reimburse doctors for giving "information to patients on how to prepare an 'advance directive,' stating how aggressively they wish to be treated if they are so sick that they cannot make health care decisions for themselves." The consultations will take place during annual "wellness visits," instead of at 5 year intervals as the bill originally mandated. The paper called this an example of the administration achieving policy goals through regulation as opposed to legislation.[34]
    Last edited by Warfish; 12-29-2010 at 11:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    So you want them to be the first to get End-of-Life-Care Consults?

    You DO realize that no one is going to actually be killed, right? And that it's quite possible to seperate care from consult? One does not have to be tied to the other, and nothing about the consults means they have to push suicide or the like?

    It seems the general belief out there is that this policy is one where a Doc simply kills a patient who's old. Not sure where that coems from, but that doesn;t seem the case in my readings at all.
    is there a difference in killing someone or "consulting" with them to believe that refusing treatment is their best option???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Come Back to NY View Post
    is there a difference in killing someone or "consulting" with them to believe that refusing treatment is their best option???
    Yes. Obviously.

    Who are YOU to tell someone else dying of some horrible painful uncurable issue that they should do X, or Y or Z?

    In point of fact, that small portion is only just that, a small portion of an otherwise larger vital issue, helping end-of-lifers understand everything going on in that period of time, all their options, not just the ones ok with CBTY's religion, as well as the variety of issues one faces when they know they'll die in the not-too-distant-future.

    I take it you assume the Doctors involved will simply push suicide....as long as the voter is christian and republican, amirite?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Yes. Obviously.

    Who are YOU to tell someone else dying of some horrible painful uncurable issue that they should do X, or Y or Z?
    i am not one to tell them....but are you going to tell me a doctor or "expert" paid by the gov't for this "consulting" has the patients best interests at heart???

    In point of fact, that small portion is only just that, a small portion of an otherwise larger vital issue, helping end-of-lifers understand everything going on in that period of time, all their options, not just the ones ok with CBTY's religion, as well as the variety of issues one faces when they know they'll die in the not-too-distant-future.
    there's just a small portion of people in the nation that don't have insurance the gov't wants to insure....it has to be paid for somewhere....btw- my religion has nothing to do with this as i had to pull the plug on my father, who was on a respirator a year and a half ago- so going down that road is just foolish....

    I take it you assume the Doctors involved will simply push suicide....as long as the voter is christian and republican, amirite?
    see the above answer- when has anything about obamacare been realistic compared to what was advertised???

    the doctors are being paid by the gov't to "consult" these people....liberals want to give others the choice of life or death at birth (abortion) and now want to do it on the opposite end of the spectrum....draw your own conclusions...
    Last edited by Come Back to NY; 12-29-2010 at 11:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    I've Had a Turnaround -- "Death" Panels


    I would change the the title of this thread to I've Had a Turnaround -- Death "Panels" because the "Death" part happens (sooner or later we all die) but the "Panel" does not.

    Who came up with this term "Death Panel" anyway. To me, the word Panel implies a bunch a people in a room making a decision about someone who isn't even present. I know from the military that there are Promotion Panels, where they just look at the folder of an individual and make their decision based on the contents of what is in that folder. I had to make sure that the folder was up to date with information that might help me get a promotion. I think that "Death Panel" was chosen as the term to imply that same sort of process, bureaucrats in a room deciding when to pull the plug on Grandma.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Come Back to NY View Post
    i am not one to tell them....but are you going to tell me a doctor or "expert" paid by the gov't for this "consulting" has the patients best interests at heart???
    As opposed to a doctor or "expert" paid by an insurance company?

    You're not seriously going to make the argument that a Medical Doctor for a for-profit company (who loses money on every old and poor health patient) is going to be more morally incorruptable than a Government Drone-Doc, who could give a rats ass about costs, since the Govt. never gives a rats ass about costs?

    there's just a small portion of people in the nation that don't have insurance the gov't wants to insure....it has to be paid for somewhere....
    Taxes.

    And as stated elsewhere (and often), I'm not for Universal or State Healthcare systems (i.e. like Canada). But that another discussion.

    We already have a State System in Midicare/caid, and since we do, providing appropriate care to those on it is justifyable. End of Life consult isn't exactly costly like a new robo-heart is.

    ADDED-EDIT: didnt see the comment about your Dad (you added), I'm sorry for your loss CB, truly. But while Assisted Suicide or the like may not be a religious issue for you personally, it is for a large amount of the right, without question.

    the doctors are being paid by the gov't to "consult" these people....liberals want to give others the choice of life or death at birth (abortion) and now want to do it on the opposite end of the spectrum....draw your own conclusions...
    I have. On this issue, the right is wrong, best as I can tell.

    It's not the "consult" thats a problem.....it's any potential denial of desired care that stems from anythign to do with the consult I'd be concerned with, and would focus my political power on. A consult is simply knowledge, something I know many in politics don't want the individual to have (for a variety of reasons).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    As opposed to a doctor or "expert" paid by an insurance company?

    You're not seriously going to make the argument that a Medical Doctor for a for-profit company (who loses money on every old and poor health patient) is going to be more morally incorruptable than a Government Drone-Doc, who could give a rats ass about costs, since the Govt. never gives a rats ass about costs?
    but you're going to make the arguement that someone who's in horrible pain with an incurable disease needs a paid gov't worker to give them end of life counseling???

    Taxes.

    And as stated elsewhere (and often), I'm not for Universal or State Healthcare systems (i.e. like Canada). But that another discussion.

    We already have a State System in Midicare/caid, and since we do, providing appropriate care to those on it is justifyable. End of Life consult isn't exactly costly like a new robo-heart is.
    that'll will go over well- raise taxes to pay for a plan the majority of Americans want repealed after you just got your ass kicked in a midterm election....

    I have. On this issue, the right is wrong, best as I can tell.

    It's not the "consult" thats a problem.....it's any potential denial of desired care that stems from anythign to do with the consult I'd be concerned with, and would focus my political power on. A consult is simply knowledge, something I know many in politics don't want the individual to have (for a variety of reasons).
    that's your opinion; the doctor paid by the gov't will have the patients best interests at heart- this administration has made it known that they feel the largest costs in health care comes from treating the ederly in the final stages of life....imagine the cost savings if they reduce that???

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    and again- i have no problem with end of life counseling for the 75 year old cancer patient who has paid into the medicare system all their lives just as long as the 50YO alcoholic whose been on dialysis at the expense of taxpayer medicaid is also subject to the end of life consulting....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Come Back to NY View Post
    but you're going to make the arguement that someone who's in horrible pain with an incurable disease needs a paid gov't worker to give them end of life counseling???
    Yes.

    Knowing not only ones options, but all the assorted other things (living will for example) is a good thing. Knowledge is never a bad thing to provide, especially when making healthcare and "I'll be dead soon, what to do" situations.

    that'll will go over well- raise taxes to pay for a plan the majority of Americans want repealed after you just got your ass kicked in a midterm election....

    Again, stay with me on this. I'm not for raising taxes, nor universal Govt. care. But since we have the "social safety net" care in place already for decades, it may as well be run right.

    If you prefer, we can fund it by slashing both millitary spending and foreign aid programs. Cut spending > Raising Taxes. You support cutting spending, right?

    that's your opinion; the doctor paid by the gov't will have the patients best interests at heart- this administration has made it known that they feel the largest costs in health care comes from treating the ederly in the final stages of life....imagine the cost savings if they reduce that???
    Implies a vast conspiracy I'd don't buy, sorry. All it takes is one Doc who exposes this devious "kill all the old" plan to blow it to bits.

    And again, you cannot in aany form show that the Governemnt is less moral than private for-profit business is when it comes to healthcare costs, and the desire to be rid of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Yes.

    Knowing not only ones options, but all the assorted other things (living will for example) is a good thing. Knowledge is never a bad thing to provide, especially when making healthcare and "I'll be dead soon, what to do" situations.
    sorry- i'll trust my own practioner and not someone paid by the gov't for this sort of "counseling"...

    Again, stay with me on this. I'm not for raising taxes, nor universal Govt. care. But since we have the "social safety net" care in place already for decades, it may as well be run right.

    If you prefer, we can fund it by slashing both millitary spending and foreign aid programs. Cut spending > Raising Taxes. You support cutting spending, right?
    no one is for raising taxes- but the money must come from somehwere....we are living under the most extreme leftist leader this nation will see in our lifetimes- do you really think he's gonna cut foriegn aid programs?? he's already funding overseas abortions....

    Implies a vast conspiracy I'd don't buy, sorry. All it takes is one Doc who exposes this devious "kill all the old" plan to blow it to bits.

    And again, you cannot in aany form show that the Governemnt is less moral than private for-profit business is when it comes to healthcare costs, and the desire to be rid of them.
    we are dealing primarily with medicare patients- private, for profit insurance companies have almost nothing to do with it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Yes.

    Knowing not only ones options, but all the assorted other things (living will for example) is a good thing. Knowledge is never a bad thing to provide, especially when making healthcare and "I'll be dead soon, what to do" situations.
    Exactly. I still have yet to see any evidence that these end of life consultations are mandatory. All I gather is that if someone on medicare wants to have one, medicare will cover the cost. And having been to one with my grandmother, I don't remember the doctor telling her that she is old and should do "X, Y or Z". I remember him asking her what she would like........nothing forced about it.

    And what's really crazy is that Palin, who popularized the term "death panels" actually set aside a day in Alaska to raise awareness for the need for the elderly to have this counseling done BEFORE something tragic happens and the burden of these difficult decisions falls to grieving family members. I applaud her for that...but am mystified at her duplicity on the subject now.

    Implies a vast conspiracy I'd don't buy, sorry. All it takes is one Doc who exposes this devious "kill all the old" plan to blow it to bits.
    Indeed. I mean, it would be one thing for the right to speculate that certain provisions in the Health Care bill may lead to the old receiving less care and thereby dying at a higher rate because of it. But it's something different for them to think that Obama has hatched this secret plan to kill off the elderly to further some sort of devious plan.

    It's ludicrous that people actually believe that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Come Back to NY View Post
    sorry- i'll trust my own practioner and not someone paid by the gov't for this sort of "counseling"...
    Except we're not talking about you, are we? We're talking about those already getting Govt. healthcare via Medicare/caid, who do not have access to "your own practitioner".

    but the money must come from somehwere....we are living under the most extreme leftist leader this nation will see in our lifetimes- do you really think he's gonna cut foriegn aid programs??
    He should. I'm not here to debate what he will do on unrelated topics. Medicare itself is questionably funded as it is, but thats not the topic either, the specifics of Palin's ignorant "death panels" comment, and whats really being provided is.

    I'll tell you what I support if we're gonna cover taxes and spending, not a ****ing penny of our money leaves our borders (in millitary or economic aid) till our own needs are taken care of, and yes, that includes (for me) those covered under teh safety-net of Medicare, as well as our pathetic and crumbling infrastructure.

    Remember my friend, you;re not ebating a Liberal, you're debating me. Painting me as pro-Obama-pro-taxes-pro-welfare is a bit silly.

    we are dealing primarily with medicare patients- private, for profit insurance companies have almost nothing to do with it....
    Sure they do. You made a claim that Govt. caregivers want to consciouly kill Medicare patients.

    Read that again so it sinks in, that is your position here rather clearly made.

    It's laughable. If anyone has motivation to provide less care for less costs, or to "remove" costs from their ledgers, it's the private industry, yet you don't think they do such things, apparently. You trust them completely it seems.

    When the starting point for debate on providing knowledge is "The Govt. wants to kill old people", there really isn;t much room to debate such ignorance. It's like trying to explain to Buster how State Government operates, some folsk just don;t want to hear it, they like their Palin-produced catchyphrase, and won;t hear anything else about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Except we're not talking about you, are we? We're talking about those already getting Govt. healthcare via Medicare/caid, who do not have access to "your own practitioner".
    no- you're talking about my mother and mother in-law and they agree with me...

    He should. I'm not here to debate what he will do on unrelated topics. Medicare itself is questionably funded as it is, but thats not the topic either, the specifics of Palin's ignorant "death panels" comment, and whats really being provided is.
    how is it unrleated?? you're throwing out theories (cut foriegn aid) i am injecting reality (not gonna happend under obozo)...

    I'll tell you what I support if we're gonna cover taxes and spending, not a ****ing penny of our money leaves our borders (in millitary or economic aid) till our own needs are taken care of, and yes, that includes (for me) those covered under teh safety-net of Medicare, as well as our pathetic and crumbling infrastructure.

    Remember my friend, you;re not ebating a Liberal, you're debating me. Painting me as pro-Obama-pro-taxes-pro-welfare is a bit silly.
    great- and like i said; just make sure the generational welfare recipients who are on dialysis, have uncurable disease, etc are at the front of the line for this counseling....

    Sure they do. You made a claim that Govt. caregivers want to consciouly kill Medicare patients.

    Read that again so it sinks in, that is your position here rather clearly made.

    It's laughable. If anyone has motivation to provide less care for less costs, or to "remove" costs from their ledgers, it's the private industry, yet you don't think they do such things, apparently. You trust them completely it seems.

    When the starting point for debate on providing knowledge is "The Govt. wants to kill old people", there really isn;t much room to debate such ignorance. It's like trying to explain to Buster how State Government operates, some folsk just don;t want to hear it, they like their Palin-produced catchyphrase, and won;t hear anything else about it.
    what's laughable it the avoidance that there isn't some sort of motive to give critically ill medicare recipients "end of life counseling" by an administration who readily admits its the ederly that's draining the system....

    people have been getting end of life medical options forever- happened to me with my father, it happened to my uncle....now the gov't that has a history of efficiency and not screwing things up is gonna pay doctors to do this and some how its a good thing??? that's laughable...
    Last edited by Come Back to NY; 12-29-2010 at 12:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Come Back to NY View Post
    no- you're talking about my mother and mother in-law and they agree with me...



    how is it unrleated?? you're throwing out theories (cut foriegn aid) i am injecting reality (not gonna happend under obozo)...



    great- and like i said; just make sure the generational welfare recipients who are on dialysis, have uncurable disease, etc are at the front of the line for this counseling....



    what's laughable it the avoidance that there isn't some sort of motive to give critically ill medicare recipients "end of life counseling" by an administration who readily admits its the ederly that's draining the system....

    people have been getting end of life medical options forever- happened to me with my father, it happened to my uncle....now the gov't that has a history of efficiency and not screwing things up is gonna pay doctors to do this and some how its a good thing??? that's laughable...
    lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Come Back to NY View Post
    no- you're talking about my mother and mother in-law and they agree with me...
    Put simply, if your medicare-recieving family members prefer ignorance to knowledge, thats their right. I do not believe the consults would be mandatory, so they can opt out, or seek their knowledge elsewhere.

    how is it unrleated?? you're throwing out theories (cut foriegn aid) i am injecting reality (not gonna happend under obozo)...
    You have a bad habit of mixing issues. I'm not discussing Govt. spending, I'm discussing this specific issue. If you'd like to discuss Govt. spending in total, start another thread.

    great- and like i said; just make sure the generational welfare recipients who are on dialysis, have uncurable disease, etc are at the front of the line for this counseling....
    If they want to be, they can be.

    what's laughable it the avoidance that there isn't some sort of motive to give critically ill medicare recipients "end of life counseling" by an administration who readily admits its the ederly that's draining the system....
    Conspiracy Theorys are the last resort of the intellectually defeated. If thats all you've got, go hang out with the birthers and 9-11-for-truthers.

    It is an undenyable fact that the elderly are the biggest cost of any healthcare system. That does not mean that the Govt. (or anyone else) want's to have a holocaust to clease them ffs.

    people have been getting end of life medical options forever- happened to me with my father, it happened to my uncle....now the gov't that has a history of efficiency and not screwing things up is gonna pay doctors to do this and some how its a good thing??? that's laughable...
    So now your view is "people already get it, and have for years", but you still take umbrage with it? Make up your mind.

    It's amazing this consult issue is even up for debate. It sounds like basic care to me, providing knowledge to one in the situation as to whats coming, how to handle it, and what options exist.

    But no, CBTNY thinks it's gas chambers and evil Government Hitlers, and worries about funding it in a Government so bloated with other wasteful spending and wars....brilliant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Put simply, if your medicare-recieving family members prefer ignorance to knowledge, thats their right. I do not believe the consults would be mandatory, so they can opt out, or seek their knowledge elsewhere.
    because my family members are responsible for themselves that somehow equates to ignorance?? sorry warfish- your assumption of this as well as my relgion affecting my views on this are completely assinine....

    You have a bad habit of mixing issues. I'm not discussing Govt. spending, I'm discussing this specific issue. If you'd like to discuss Govt. spending in total, start another thread.
    its not mixing issues- its reality...this has to do with gov't spending- anyway you cut it...


    If they want to be, they can be.

    Conspiracy Theorys are the last resort of the intellectually defeated. If thats all you've got, go hang out with the birthers and 9-11-for-truthers.

    It is an undenyable fact that the elderly are the biggest cost of any healthcare system. That does not mean that the Govt. (or anyone else) want's to have a holocaust to clease them ffs.
    its not a conspiracy theory- its the conclusion based on the evidence at hand and just as valid as your "conspiracy theory" that the gov't is doing this for the benefit of the paitent- not themselves......if there was a rise in the death of ederly people and i claimed it was due to death panels with no proof- that's a conspiracy theory...

    So now your view is "people already get it, and have for years", but you still take umbrage with it? Make up your mind.

    It's amazing this consult issue is even up for debate. It sounds like basic care to me, providing knowledge to one in the situation as to whats coming, how to handle it, and what options exist.
    lol- you basically just shot down your own point...why is it up for debate when its' been going on for generations? why is the gov't all of a sudden paying doctors for "enbd of life" counseling when doctors have been giving patients their options for years???

    But no, CBTNY thinks it's gas chambers and evil Government Hitlers, and worries about funding it in a Government so bloated with other wasteful spending and wars....brilliant.
    meanwhile warfish thinks the gov't is going to pay doctors to give counseling to people for the patients benefits when this administration has already pointed to end of life treatment as one of the biggerst expenses and potential cost savings in the health field...in the world of warfish 1 + 1 = 3....

    btw- you've yet to address the point that i have no problem with this just as long as it applies to those on mediciad...but that's besides the point...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    lol
    nice to see you think its' funny i had to make these decisions for my dad while he was on his deathbed....then again you are the same POS who at one time told me to euthanize my child....

    you're the perfect example or why there should be involuntary sterilization....

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