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Thread: New York City Teachers Union . . . ~ ~ ~

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    Arrow New York City Teachers Union . . . ~ ~ ~

    big surprise here :

    New York City Teachers Union Is Largest Recipient of Obamacare Waiver ; Parent AFT Union Spent $1.9 Million on Obama Election

    > http://cnsnews.com/news/article/nyc-...employees-af-0

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    fyi :

    The Nuts and Bolts of the ObamaCare Ruling
    According to the government's theory, wrote Judge Vinson,
    'the more harm the statute does, the more power Congress could assume for itself under the Necessary and Proper Clause.'

    > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...pinion_LEADTop

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly View Post
    big surprise here :

    New York City Teachers Union Is Largest Recipient of Obamacare Waiver ; Parent AFT Union Spent $1.9 Million on Obama Election

    > http://cnsnews.com/news/article/nyc-...employees-af-0
    So your point is that if they didn't contribute $1.9MM, they would have been bankrupt by the limits phase-out? Or is it that the single remaining thing making teaching in NYC attractive (good benefits) disappears, and we leave a million kids to a few thousand teachers? Good thing they bucked up then, I guess.

    No, I'm not a teacher (or NYCBOE employee), but I have 2 kids...

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    700 NYC teachers paid to do nothing
    Accused of misconduct, taxpayers foot bill at cost of $65 million a year



    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31494936...ews-education/

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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    700 NYC teachers paid to do nothing
    Accused of misconduct, taxpayers foot bill at cost of $65 million a year



    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31494936...ews-education/
    OK, a second attraction

    Seriously - of course that's not right - but that is 700 of 351,000 (according to the OP's article), or like 0.2%. From what I've seen, I'd suspect that's not unusual for a large union, it may even be a pretty good number compared to other large unions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isired View Post
    OK, a second attraction

    Seriously - of course that's not right - but that is 700 of 351,000 (according to the OP's article), or like 0.2%. From what I've seen, I'd suspect that's not unusual for a large union, it may even be a pretty good number compared to other large unions.
    Understood... in fact, I believe teachers here in NC and many states are extremely UNDERPAID. A teacher here in Charlotte earnes about 35K after 2 or 3 years. Yet they have a bloated staff of administrators.

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    Thats the problem in Mn to to much administration. Plus they must have a Masters Degree to teach 3rd graders. Damn these kids must be bright. Or isit a ploy to get more money!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MnJetFan View Post
    Thats the problem in Mn to to much administration. Plus they must have a Masters Degree to teach 3rd graders. Damn these kids must be bright. Or isit a ploy to get more money!
    Under current "teacher union" rules, Bill Clinton is not qualified to teach 7th grade history. He needs to go to Dowling College for his masters in education. Then the SAME tired argument..."I have a Masters Degree".

    Well I have one to and nobody cares! The real world wants to pay for results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isired View Post
    So your point is that if they didn't contribute $1.9MM, they would have been bankrupt by the limits phase-out? Or is it that the single remaining thing making teaching in NYC attractive (good benefits) disappears, and we leave a million kids to a few thousand teachers? Good thing they bucked up then, I guess.

    No, I'm not a teacher (or NYCBOE employee), but I have 2 kids...
    If Obamacare is so great, then why are all the unions who elected Obama being "rewarded" with free passes to get away from Obamacare?

    Serious question...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MnJetFan View Post
    That's the problem in Mn also, too much administration. Plus, they must have a Masters Degree to teach 3rd graders. Damn, these kids must be bright. Or is it a ploy to get more money?

    Rarely is the question asked....is our children learning? Apparantly not in Minnesota.

    I kid, Mn....

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    Quote Originally Posted by shakin318 View Post
    If Obamacare is so great, then why are all the unions who elected Obama being "rewarded" with free passes to get away from Obamacare?

    Serious question...
    I don't think it's so great - I don't think any of this works without tort reform, for example; and I don't think anyone thinks it's even approaching perfect, least of all Obama - I think it's what you get when you have a nation/government divided, and the participants in the process are dead set against anything the 'other side' wants or says. This board is a perfect microcosm of the system: 4-6 years ago, all those who are now yelling "fair!" were yelling "foul!", and vice-versa. That's why I think the system is overdue for a revolt - looks like it will be a Twitter revolution, if Egypt is any example. Wonder if Google will be so kind as to provide an int'l 800# for us when the Dems and Reps finally get together to decide that the internet needs to be shut down if they're to remain in control!

    But, back on topic, the waivers are not to get away from the healthcare program - they're real-world (yeah, I know, a dirty word when it comes to political ideology, where everything is black and white) considerations of the fact that if the maximums were imposed instantly on a system with more than 350,000 participants, the system would break. And, you tell me: what's so great about the previous state of healthcare, and where it was heading?

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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    Understood... in fact, I believe teachers here in NC and many states are extremely UNDERPAID. A teacher here in Charlotte earnes about 35K after 2 or 3 years. Yet they have a bloated staff of administrators.
    A problem in NYC is that the teachers in suburbia make much more than those in the city, which is seen as a good place to start (easier to get a job), then they leave after a few years for better salaries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isired View Post
    I don't think it's so great - I don't think any of this works without tort reform, for example; and I don't think anyone thinks it's even approaching perfect, least of all Obama - I think it's what you get when you have a nation/government divided, and the participants in the process are dead set against anything the 'other side' wants or says. This board is a perfect microcosm of the system: 4-6 years ago, all those who are now yelling "fair!" were yelling "foul!", and vice-versa. That's why I think the system is overdue for a revolt - looks like it will be a Twitter revolution, if Egypt is any example. Wonder if Google will be so kind as to provide an int'l 800# for us when the Dems and Reps finally get together to decide that the internet needs to be shut down if they're to remain in control!

    But, back on topic, the waivers are not to get away from the healthcare program - they're real-world (yeah, I know, a dirty word when it comes to political ideology, where everything is black and white) considerations of the fact that if the maximums were imposed instantly on a system with more than 350,000 participants, the system would break. And, you tell me: what's so great about the previous state of healthcare, and where it was heading?
    If we are indeed a nation of laws and Congress passes a law and the President signs it into law shouldn't there be equal protection? If people in the Administration can hand out waivers doesn't that give them the power to pick winners and losers in our free market?

    Doesn't this provide a huge incentive for Unions and Corporations to invest money in politicians. It pays and gives those that pay in an unfair advantage in the market place.

    The law doesn't work scrape it and start all over. Don't hand out politically funded favors at the expense of everyone else.

    My liberal friends are always complaining about corporate lobbying and influence. If you really want to reduce it you need a fair tax system and laws that everyone has to comply with equally. Once you start handing out waivers or giving tax exemptions or subsidies you have to start wondering who's side our elected officials are on?

    You can't ever get control over a budget that isn't required to balance if that budget is controlled by people who are essentially shaking down their own constituents.

    In the real world if we can't pass laws that are impartial and fair to eveyone, we shouldn't be passing laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    If we are indeed a nation of laws and Congress passes a law and the President signs it into law shouldn't there be equal protection? If people in the Administration can hand out waivers doesn't that give them the power to pick winners and losers in our free market?

    Doesn't this provide a huge incentive for Unions and Corporations to invest money in politicians. It pays and gives those that pay in an unfair advantage in the market place.

    The law doesn't work scrape it and start all over. Don't hand out politically funded favors at the expense of everyone else.

    My liberal friends are always complaining about corporate lobbying and influence. If you really want to reduce it you need a fair tax system and laws that everyone has to comply with equally. Once you start handing out waivers or giving tax exemptions or subsidies you have to start wondering who's side our elected officials are on?

    You can't ever get control over a budget that isn't required to balance if that budget is controlled by people who are essentially shaking down their own constituents.

    In the real world if we can't pass laws that are impartial and fair to eveyone, we shouldn't be passing laws.
    There are waivers issued all the time, this is where you want to make an exception? Since I don't believe you can get rid of public education in NYC, do you eliminate the phasing out of the low maximums altogether because it doesn't work in what is the extreme exception (a school district with 150k employees and a million students)?

    Do you think eliminating maximum benefits per user is a good idea?
    Why raise the maximums gradually? Isn't that an acknowledgment that there might be undue financial burden? Wouldn't it stand to reason that the burden on a pretty unique situation might itself be unique? Do you alleviate that, let the system implode, or not pass the law at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Doesn't this provide a huge incentive for Unions and Corporations to invest money in politicians. It pays and gives those that pay in an unfair advantage in the market place.
    Honest question - do you believe that if the union spent $0 on Obama's campaign, they would not have gotten the waiver?

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    Quote Originally Posted by isired View Post
    And, you tell me: what's so great about the previous state of healthcare, and where it was heading?
    Choice. And quality of care.

    Obamacare already has insurance companies getting out of the business. With fewer insurance companies competing in the market, more of the market is coming under the control of a few big insurance companies -- the ultimate result of this is higher prices and fewer choices available to consumers.

    On top of insurance companies leaving, medical doctors will be leaving the industry in droves -- up to 40% say they'll leave the industry within 3 years (link) due to Obamacare. This at a time when the U.S. was already expecting a shortfall of almost 150,000 doctors over the next 15 years (as someone very involved in healthcare recruitment I can vouch for this stat. I'll dig out a link if necessary.)

    Lastly (at least as far as my 2 response points go), Obamacare heavily favors family/general practitioners over specialists. Well, much of what those specialists do is medical research to further advances in their specialty areas...and much of that research is "funded" by the high fees they charge for what they do. Obamacare prevents those "high" fees yet does nothing to replace them through additional grants or funding, which means that invaluable research simply isn't going to be done any longer.

    Bottom line is that the healthcare system we had until now had its problems as does any other industry; Obamacare -- while relying heavily on altruistic rhetoric -- will be devastating in so many critical areas.
    Last edited by shakin318; 02-02-2011 at 03:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shakin318 View Post
    Choice. And quality of care.
    You didn't have choice? And the quality of care is different today than before? The quality of care has been sinking quickly in the last decade, and would have continued to do so one way or another - and will continue to do so until healthcare costs are brought under control.

    Quote Originally Posted by shakin318 View Post
    Obamacare already has insurance companies getting out of the business.
    I've been around the insurance industry, via my father, my whole life. And the insurance industry has been getting out of the healthcare business most of his career - the 'best and brightest' that entered the workforce with him, as either actuaries or salesmen, all the way back in 1962, went into finance and real estate - and never left the insurance company they worked for.

    Quote Originally Posted by shakin318 View Post
    With fewer insurance companies competing in the market, more of the market is coming under the control of a few big insurance companies -- the ultimate result of this is higher prices and fewer choices available to consumers.

    On top of insurance companies leaving, medical doctors will be leaving the industry in droves -- up to 40% say they'll leave the industry within 3 years (link) due to Obamacare. This at a time when the U.S. was already expecting a shortfall of almost 150,000 doctors over the next 15 years (as someone very involved in healthcare recruitment I can vouch for this stat. I'll dig out a link if necessary.)

    Lastly (at least as far as my 2 response points go), Obamacare heavily favors family/general practitioners over specialists. Well, much of what those specialists do is medical research to further advances in their specialty areas...and much of that research is "funded" by the high fees they charge for what they do. Obamacare prevents those "high" fees yet does nothing to replace them through additional grants or funding, which means that invaluable research simply isn't going to be done any longer.

    Bottom line is that the healthcare system we had until now had its problems as does any other industry; Obamacare -- while relying heavily on altruistic rhetoric -- will be devastating in so many critical areas.
    That's all pretty logical, and I agree that there is a lot wrong with 'Obamacare', but do you see the trend we were on towards unaffordable healthcare topping out if left unabated? Haven't you seen the options and quality of care spiraling downward? I think you work for a much larger company than me (BH?), so maybe you feel it less, but I'm sure you still feel it. We recently changed healthcare providers at work, and one of the options now is, of course, a high-deductible/HSA account. As part of the research on what that might look like to our employees, we did a quick poll of ~50 GP's in NYC, LI, Northern NJ and Westchester to find out what their rates would be. A Dr.'s visit in NYC averaged out to $275 not including any tests or labs - just a 'i feel sick' 'yep you're sick, here's a scrip' visit; In the other parts, it was just under $250. And tehse were Doctor's on an Emblem health EPO, meaning the cheapest, lowest quality providers. The tab of my last dr. appt, a check up, was $525 - not including tests/labs. As you now, these have been going up annually for 10 years - the average cost 10-15 years ago for an office visit in Manhattan was a pretty standard $75, for a good doctor. Prices for specialists were more dramatic, and hospitals even more so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isired View Post
    You didn't have choice? And the quality of care is different today than before? The quality of care has been sinking quickly in the last decade, and would have continued to do so one way or another - and will continue to do so until healthcare costs are brought under control.

    I've been around the insurance industry, via my father, my whole life. And the insurance industry has been getting out of the healthcare business most of his career - the 'best and brightest' that entered the workforce with him, as either actuaries or salesmen, all the way back in 1962, went into finance and real estate - and never left the insurance company they worked for.

    That's all pretty logical, and I agree that there is a lot wrong with 'Obamacare', but do you see the trend we were on towards unaffordable healthcare topping out if left unabated? Haven't you seen the options and quality of care spiraling downward? I think you work for a much larger company than me (BH?), so maybe you feel it less, but I'm sure you still feel it. We recently changed healthcare providers at work, and one of the options now is, of course, a high-deductible/HSA account. As part of the research on what that might look like to our employees, we did a quick poll of ~50 GP's in NYC, LI, Northern NJ and Westchester to find out what their rates would be. A Dr.'s visit in NYC averaged out to $275 not including any tests or labs - just a 'i feel sick' 'yep you're sick, here's a scrip' visit; In the other parts, it was just under $250. And tehse were Doctor's on an Emblem health EPO, meaning the cheapest, lowest quality providers. The tab of my last dr. appt, a check up, was $525 - not including tests/labs. As you now, these have been going up annually for 10 years - the average cost 10-15 years ago for an office visit in Manhattan was a pretty standard $75, for a good doctor. Prices for specialists were more dramatic, and hospitals even more so.
    It's always great to get personal insight into a situation, and yours in relation to your father and the insurance industry is enlightening. My comments were also from my personal insight due to business interactions I have with the healthcare industry, major pharma, etc. I don't claim to be an expert on Obamacare (nobody is actually, nobody has ever single-handedly read the entire bill from what I can gather), but the facets of it that I'm familiar with (ie doctors leaving the industry) are HUGE PROBLEMS that are being ignored. We're talking about a devastating shortage of experienced, qualified doctors within the next decade -- while adding disincentives for anyone interested in going into the medical field. And thus my point -- from just this lone single (unintended?) consequence of Obamacare, access to healthcare will be greatly limited, and the quality of that healthcare if/when you can get it will be questionable.

    Yes, something "needed to be done" about our healthcare system. Obamacare in sum is a downright horrible and destructive solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shakin318 View Post
    It's always great to get personal insight into a situation, and yours in relation to your father and the insurance industry is enlightening. My comments were also from my personal insight due to business interactions I have with the healthcare industry, major pharma, etc. I don't claim to be an expert on Obamacare (nobody is actually, nobody has ever single-handedly read the entire bill from what I can gather), but the facets of it that I'm familiar with (ie doctors leaving the industry) are HUGE PROBLEMS that are being ignored. We're talking about a devastating shortage of experienced, qualified doctors within the next decade -- while adding disincentives for anyone interested in going into the medical field. And thus my point -- from just this lone single (unintended?) consequence of Obamacare, access to healthcare will be greatly limited, and the quality of that healthcare if/when you can get it will be questionable.

    Yes, something "needed to be done" about our healthcare system. Obamacare in sum is a downright horrible and destructive solution.
    You may be right - we've already seen that over the last 10+ years, but instead of leaving the industry, many of the top doctors just don't 'take' insurance at all - at least not for payment - you pay, then you sort out the insurance, get what you can (they're not in any networks, obviously). This has been going on for a log time, and the pace has been quickening.

    But somehow I just can't see our great med schools not turning out top doctors, even if, in the median, it's not the cash cow it was. We still turn out great teachers, and lord knows they're not in it to get rich.

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    Quote Originally Posted by isired View Post
    So your point is that if they didn't contribute $1.9MM, they would have been bankrupt by the limits phase-out? Or is it that the single remaining thing making teaching in NYC attractive (good benefits) disappears, and we leave a million kids to a few thousand teachers? Good thing they bucked up then, I guess.

    No, I'm not a teacher (or NYCBOE employee), but I have 2 kids...
    " . . . I have 2 kids ... "

    ~ ~ do either/both of them go to a new york city PUBLIC school ? ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelly View Post
    " . . . I have 2 kids ... "

    ~ ~ do either/both of them go to a new york city PUBLIC school ? ?
    Yes, both. I thought that was obvious. They go to a very good public elementary, fortunately, that's only a few blocks away - and it's good in large measure due to the local community of parents. You wouldn't believe what our PTA pays for - we raise and spend tens of thousands of dollars a year on everything from classroom supplies nd a 30-station computer lab to funding some class studies for each grade.

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