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Thread: "So Be It"

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;3960763] Stop hindering them with absurd taxes and overregulation. Maybe then we'll stop shipping jobs overseas and start bringing them home. [/QUOTE]

    businesses export labor overseas cause it's cheaper. That's got nothing to do with the US Gov't. it's basic economics.


    and to make a further point, those jobs, aren't great jobs. a factory in China makes 1 dollar for every Iphone it makes. Apple makes 300 dollars every Iphone it sells.

    We need more apple jobs... and if we lose china (manufacturing) jobs... so what? how is manufacturing gonna save the day?

  2. #22
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    Why don't we just let AQ destroy the place...it seems everyone here hates it so much

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;3960823]Why don't we just let AQ destroy the place...it seems everyone here hates it so much[/QUOTE]

    the haters never actually leave the usa. they have no idea how much worse it could be.

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;3960826]the haters never actually leave the usa. they have no idea how much worse it could be.[/QUOTE]

    Exactly.

    Boomers, man. They're not gonna be happy until they've left EVERYTHING a smoldering pile of f*cking rubble.


    Save. Your. Self.

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;3960814]I don't think you really understand my position.[/QUOTE]

    You've made your positions quite clear Bit, you just don't like being called out on them as the State Power/Socialist you are.

    Do you support more Govt. Power? Yes, you do, and have said so many times here, on a range of issues, starting with Healthcare, where you support single-payor UK Style.

    Do you support high taxes? Yes, you do, as you've plead for repeatedly, both higher corporate taxes, and hgher taxes on those you deem "the rich".

    Do you have a distrust/dislike of private business? Yes, as even a breif search of your posts will show, you believe all private business exists to screw the poor little man so the rich can get richer.

    Do you have a problem with Govt. Deficits/Debt? Nope, you support deficit spending, and increased deficit spending, as the onyl route to econimic recovery and well being, a Govt. driven economy.

    The only thing Govt. does you don't support, is War. But then again, you havn't had a War as yet started under a Democrat, and you are generally quite quiet on all the millitary issues you once were loud about under the previous administration, from the Patriot Act, to Iraq/Afganistan, to Wire Taps and so on and on and on. What once inspired multiple Bit rants, now....you hardly talk about.

    There is no doubt in my mind you are a traditional Socialist of the old school Euro variety. Happy to allow Govt. all the power it could ask for, happy to tax the people to the maximum and redistribute it via Govt. policy, and smart enough to make sure benefit from the system.

    Your question "is there a recovery" itself proves my point, because you're next post is "the Govt. created the recovery, despite the private sectors efforts against it, it was all Obama and Govt. spending that created the recovery".

    About the only thing I don't understand is why you don't simply embrace being a Socialist/Stateist you are? Why hide from your truest self, when your policy positions are in lockstep down the line with socialism? You're going to be called one anyway, why not just embrace it, as you embrase their policies and ideals?

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;3960865]
    About the only thing I don't understand is why you don't simply embrace being a Socialist/Stateist you are? [/QUOTE]

    well I support deficit spending so i must be a reagan democrat.

    you are more concerned with labeling people than actually reading the posts.

    Even if everything you say is true, just cause I'm a socialist on tuesday doesn't mean I can't be a libertarian on wednesday.

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;3960740]growing gov't during hard times is essential [B]keynesian policy [/B]and it's exactly what's supposed to happen. that's how the hard times turn around or at least don't worsen. (looking at current economic conditions i.e. recovery it seems to have been a good choice)

    There was a time before [B]keynesian economics [/B]or fiat currency and there were crippling boom bust cycles every 10-20 years or so. Contrary to some opinions, life was not better off before the new deal and the fed.[/QUOTE]

    Keynesian policys have been doing GREAT for the U.S. :rolleyes:

    Thinking like this prolonged the "Great Depression" - which we can thank Hirohito and Hitler for gettng us out of as FDRs fiscal policies were a disaster, and is Killing us now.

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;3960870]you are more concerned with labeling people than actually reading the posts.[/quote]

    And you my friend are terrified of beign labeled for what you so clearly are.

    [QUOTE]Even if everything you say is true[/QUOTE]

    "Everything I say" above can be verified in your posting history.

    [quote]just cause I'm a socialist on tuesday doesn't mean I can't be a libertarian on wednesday.[/QUOTE]

    True, you could come out for some lower-Govt./more freedom position.

    So by all means....do you have one to come out with?

    Or are you just a Socialist on Tuesday, and a Socialits on Wednesday, and both days cowering in fear that someone will actually call you a Socialist on Thursday?

    Honesty would go a long way Bit. You are what you are, I am what I am, neither of us should fear the labels that most accurately describe us.

  9. #29
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;3960774]Well, then have to little to discuss I'd say, if we were being honest.

    One who has no issue with the size (and with size inherantly comes power and authority, otherwise why the need for size?) of Government is so foreign and unacceptable to me, I truly do not know how to engage such people. I don't want to live in the same country as them, and would suggest they move to Europe or China, where such systems already exist, rather than continuing to try and make the US into the USSR circa 1960.

    When the answer to all problems becomes "let the State decide/control it".....I don't know how to reply. Except not to trust you.[/QUOTE]No, that's not it - I was probably too succinct in my answer - when I said "I've never specifically objected to the size of government." what I meant was that shrinking the government, with it's current setup (career politicians beholden to corporations and SIGs, etc.) doesn't do anything for me - less people in the same corrupted system isn't worth pursuing, IMO. Not that I want larger Government, per se, but as long as this completely illogical system is in place, the size of it isn't the issue to me. Which isn't to say that we agree, at all - I can't say across the board that I want more or less government, because it's not one size fits all. But I don't like career politicians. I don't like the way they make decisions. I don't think ridding us of career politicians necessarily shrinks government, but it sure shrinks there power. And I don't like partisan politics at all. I get that different ideologies exist, but nowadays, guys will argue against something that they were in agreement with a year earlier if it's in opposition to their opponents. It wasn't always that way, even in my lifetime.

    That said, I'm a realist, and I think that you have to deal with what will happen, not ideals, when making laws and setting policy. For example, is it ideal to have the government force people to buy healthcare? No. Ideally, we'd have a choice, and those that choose not to and lose have to pay every penny. I agree with you there. But that's not real, it won't/can't happen that way. And basically everybody uses the healthcare system in a big way eventually, so choosing not to buy insurance is choosing to have a huge bill at a later date. We pay for that.

    You seem to think that the country should be the way that you think it should be regarding the size/scale/power of the government, that it's not the way it was intended, and I can't say for sure if you're right or wrong - but I don't think the founders/framers could possibly envision the scale/magnitude of the USA in 2011.

    And the bottom line is, whether that's as it was intended or not, it's really supposed to be how the people want it to be. So if people are willing to trade personal liberties for safety from terrorist attacks or healthcare, then that's the way it should be - and if not, then that's the way it should be. And for items like the two I mentioned, where it affects the country, can't be confined to a state, the fed gov't has to rule. But it should be the will of the collective people, as represented honestly by their elected representatives, not corporations, or just the deepest pockets. I'm pretty sure that's not what was intended.

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=isired;3960886]I was probably too succinct in my answer[/quote]

    No, I think you were simply being straitforward and honest, perhaps too much so.

    [QUOTE]shrinking the government doesn't do anything for me[/QUOTE]

    If you believe that, all I can say is you might want to think on it a while longer.

    [QUOTE]That said, I'm a realist, and I think that you have to deal with what will happen, not ideals[/QUOTE]

    Nithing wrong with pragmatic realism, but abandoning core ideals in the name of "relaism" is a road to hell and ruin and the loss of all the individual holds dear.

    [QUOTE]For example, is it ideal to have the government force people to buy healthcare? No. Ideally, we'd have a choice, and those that choose not to and lose have to pay every penny. I agree with you there. But that's not real, it won't/can't happen that way.[/QUOTE]

    This says alot my friend.

    [QUOTE]but I don't think the founders/framers could possibly envision the scale/magnitude of the USA in 2011.[/QUOTE]

    The foundation of the progressive idea of a "living document" Constitution, that in effect means only whatever the current Govt. wants it to mean.

    So your freedom is at their discretion. And you support that.

    [QUOTE]So if people are willing to trade personal liberties for safety from terrorist attacks or healthcare, then that's the way it should be[/QUOTE]

    A brilliant argument......if one was defending slavery in the 1800's.

    The will of the people, i.e. the 50.0001% majority, is not the absolute, especially when one side of the two-sided system works tirelessly to enslave that slight majority by taking away from a smaller minority to give them free ****. A system based on that, as we're headed towards, is a road to ruination and oppression of everything teh Nationw as founded upon.

    As I said, there is little for us to find agreemnt on. In your claimed frustration with "the system", you fall right in line with supporting the aims of one side of teh system, quietly being the "pragmatic realist" giving up your freedom with a smile and a shrug.

    I would have hoped our freedoms would not be so easily and cheaply taken.

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;3960902]If you believe that, all I can say is you might want to think on it a while longer.[/QUOTE]LOL - that's the Warfish I know - you're back.

    [QUOTE=Warfish;3960902]Nithing wrong with pragmatic realism, but abandoning core ideals in the name of "relaism" is a road to hell and ruin and the loss of all the individual holds dear.[/QUOTE]That's the difference I guess - I think we're already on teh road to hell and ruin, and the only thing that can possibly stop it is a big blast of logic and realism.

    [QUOTE=Warfish;3960902]This says alot my friend.[/QUOTE]It says what it says.



    [QUOTE=Warfish;3960902]The foundation of the progressive idea of a "living document" Constitution, that in effect means only whatever the current Govt. wants it to mean.

    So your freedom is at their discretion. And you support that.[/QUOTE]no, not with the government the way it is - would need to fix the system first. don't want pfizer or nestle rewriting the constitution.


    [QUOTE=Warfish;3960902]A brilliant argument......if one was defending slavery in the 1800's.
    [B]
    The will of the people, i.e. the 50.0001% majority,[/B] is not the absolute, especially when one side of the two-sided system works tirelessly to enslave that slight majority by taking away from a smaller minority to give them free ****. A system based on that, as we're headed towards, is a road to ruination and oppression of everything teh Nationw as founded upon.[/QUOTE]As with most things, there is a wide gulf of options available ;)


    [QUOTE=Warfish;3960902]As I said, there is little for us to find agreemnt on. In your claimed frustration with "the system", you fall right in line with supporting the aims of one side of teh system, quietly being the "pragmatic realist" giving up your freedom with a smile and a shrug.

    I would have hoped our freedoms would not be so easily and cheaply taken.[/QUOTE]I don't give up my freedoms so easily. I think healthcare is a crisis situation. I think the Patriot Act is an unfortunate and necessary response to what I saw happen on 9/11/01. And I definitely don't fall strictly in line with one side or the other. Frankly, I don't see how anyone can. Let's face it, the healthcare system I support is (was) the Republican offering, the acceptable alternate to single payer (which I could live with as well, tbh - it just needs to change for the better). And I think tort reform is a necessity if healthcare is going to be affordable. I think we need to close our borders. As I said, I'm OK with the Patriot Act (though I cringe at the name), but I hope a time comes when it outlives it's necessity. I don't support the death penalty, but could if I had (a lot) more faith in our CJ system. I don't give a **** what your sexual preference is, nor do I think it's my (or the government's) business.

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;3960815]businesses export labor overseas cause it's cheaper. That's got nothing to do with the US Gov't. it's basic economics.


    and to make a further point, those jobs, aren't great jobs. a factory in China makes 1 dollar for every Iphone it makes. Apple makes 300 dollars every Iphone it sells.

    We need more apple jobs... and if we lose china (manufacturing) jobs... so what? how is manufacturing gonna save the day?[/QUOTE]

    Yes, it is very basic economics. That tax structure in this country helps make it cheaper elsewhere. :rolleyes:

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;3960878]
    True, you could come out for some lower-Govt./more freedom position.

    So by all means....do you have one to come out with?

    Or are you just a Socialist on Tuesday, and a Socialits on Wednesday, and both days cowering in fear that someone will actually call you a Socialist on Thursday?

    Honesty would go a long way Bit. You are what you are, I am what I am, neither of us should fear the labels that most accurately describe us.[/QUOTE]

    remember back in the day... we all took these political spectrum tests... guys like jets5ever were around... i didn't score like the leftist marxist you portray me as... i scored something like -2 which is slightly left of center. 5ever was slightly right of center like a +2. There are conservatives on this site that are +6, +7 extreme right wing. Compared to those posters... and without very many other liberals on the site, yes I am a very liberal person. But I tend to believe i'm a left leaning centrist... or a slight liberal if you will. Im not che Guevara.

    I dont want to make a thread about all my beliefs but I share many libertarian viewpoints. Education reform needs to start with merit based pay for teachers. Vices such as drugs and prostitution should be legal. I support tort reform for malpractice. I do believe deep cuts should be made in several social programs. I think gov't obstruction of international free trade is dumb and weakens the market.

    i am obviously not a true libertarian (for example I think the gov't needs to step in and control the economy when we are on the verge of collapse... also corporations cant be trusted to do the right thing on the environment) but I think I share many of their beliefs... on a personal level.

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;3961032]Yes, it is very basic economics. That tax structure in this country helps make it cheaper elsewhere. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    I asked before what are the value of these jobs anyway? Assembling an phone in a factory somewhere is not a high value job. 1st world nations should be investing in education and inventing the next Iphones not crying that the below living wage jobs have left... alot of these jobs are not great jobs, still alot of manufacturing (for example building stealth fighters) happens in the USA and they require some sophistication... but making the plastic crap that they sell at walmart is not a job we should be worried about losing.

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;3961342]I asked before what are the value of these jobs anyway? Assembling an phone in a factory somewhere is not a high value job. 1st world nations should be investing in education and inventing the next Iphones not crying that the below living wage jobs have left... alot of these jobs are not great jobs, still alot of manufacturing (for example building stealth fighters) happens in the USA and they require some sophistication... but making the plastic crap that they sell at walmart is not a job we should be worried about losing.[/QUOTE]

    LOL if you don't think we're losing "sophisticated" manufacturing in this country. Ask the millions in this country (that were) employed by the pharmaceutical and chemical industries how that's going.

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=isired;3960941]I think we're already on teh road to hell and ruin, and the only thing that can possibly stop it is a big blast of logic and realism.[/quote]

    Well, at least on that we can agree, even if for differing causes.

    [QUOTE]don't want pfizer or nestle rewriting the constitution.[/QUOTE]

    I trust them more than I trust G.W. Bush or B.H. Obama. At least with the private sector, they cannot take from me, I must choose to buy from them.

    And really, no comapny "rewrites" anything, corporate power is vastly overrated in my view. They can beg, plead and bribe/donate. Thats it. If the Politician is willing to take those things, all of which are legal (illegally should be crushed!), thats on the politician, not the company workignt o protect it's interests. The hate towards private busienss here is staggering and illogical, as if it were private business who took away 35-50% of YOUR labor each day to give to others. Sorry, no, they just sell us **** and hope we buy it, and spend what they have to to keep Govt. off their ass.

    You know who I hate, companies who break the law. They should be crushed for it. Not all companies. One has to wonder where all of us forumites work that we hate private business so deeply...



    [QUOTE]I think healthcare is a crisis situation.[/QUOTE]

    So do alot of folks, but I've yet to see anything that backs up "crisis" as the fact of things. Thats exactly my point (and the point of Dems in re: security and Govt. in the previous administration). Teh Govt. drums up the PR that X is a "crisis, we must act now, not time to think, er, debate, we must pass teh law before we've written it or read it or showed it to you stupid sheeple, it's a CRIIIIIIIISISSSSSSSS!!!!!"

    End of the day, every "crisis" gives them more power, more of my income, and me less freedom. Every single time. And oddly, the "crisis" issue is never actually solved, it just becomes a "crisis" again down the road, so the Govt. can try and take more.....

    It truly sadedens me how so many here in out little community not only tolerate the loss of their personal freedom in order to escape personal responsabillity, but they want more, more more of that. It's almost (for some) that they simply don't care about their own rights, as long as their needs are met by the State. They would call it altruism, I'd call it an abject lack of personal interest.

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;3961474]Well, at least on that we can agree, even if for differing causes.



    I trust them more than I trust G.W. Bush or B.H. Obama. At least with the private sector, they cannot take from me, I must choose to buy from them.

    And really, no comapny "rewrites" anything, corporate power is vastly overrated in my view. They can beg, plead and bribe/donate. Thats it. If the Politician is willing to take those things, all of which are legal (illegally should be crushed!), thats on the politician, not the company workignt o protect it's interests. The hate towards private busienss here is staggering and illogical, as if it were private business who took away 35-50% of YOUR labor each day to give to others. Sorry, no, they just sell us **** and hope we buy it, and spend what they have to to keep Govt. off their ass.

    You know who I hate, companies who break the law. They should be crushed for it. Not all companies. One has to wonder where all of us forumites work that we hate private business so deeply...





    So do alot of folks, but I've yet to see anything that backs up "crisis" as the fact of things. Thats exactly my point (and the point of Dems in re: security and Govt. in the previous administration). Teh Govt. drums up the PR that X is a "crisis, we must act now, not time to think, er, debate, we must pass teh law before we've written it or read it or showed it to you stupid sheeple, it's a CRIIIIIIIISISSSSSSSS!!!!!"

    End of the day, every "crisis" gives them more power, more of my income, and me less freedom. Every single time. And oddly, the "crisis" issue is never actually solved, it just becomes a "crisis" again down the road, so the Govt. can try and take more.....

    It truly sadedens me how so many here in out little community not only tolerate the loss of their personal freedom in order to escape personal responsabillity, but they want more, more more of that. It's almost (for some) that they simply don't care about their own rights, as long as their needs are met by the State. They would call it altruism, I'd call it an abject lack of personal interest.[/QUOTE]

    I would say the true motivation is just pure laziness. I don't know why you are surprised.

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