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Thread: I'm torn now between Taylor and Wilkerson...

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreshBaked 24 7 View Post
    Oops! Wrong video wrong name

    I like Talyor but I don't like Wilkerson

    Got the impression from Wilkerson that his Play seems like it needs more polishing.
    At 0:23 he's one on one and really bites on the inside move by Royster.
    At 0:36 he takes himself out of the play again
    At 0:51 while quick and double teamed doesn't establish the line of scrimmage and gets taken for a ride
    1:11 Doesn't really fire off the ball or establish anythign one on one int he pass rush
    1:44 would have been blown out of the play if his teammate didn't make a good play
    1:55 Does a good job using his hands and establishing himself but doesn't shed fast enough to get anything more than an arm tackle

    etc

    Just doesn't impress me
    granted you are basing it on what was put in front of you.....

    Taylor is more NFL ready vs Wilkerson- but Wilkerson has All Pro potential vs Taylor, whose upper limit is being a good player....

    They both have downside for different reasons (Taylor- was 390lbs in 2009, Wilkerson is just raw)....

    gun to my head i am taking Wilkerson- no questions....

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    i dont think NT or DE is such a bad first round need. OLB and CB are probably worse needs.



    Sht the fck up Bit, always hatin' on my players, go pick on your nemesis CBTNY you've been playing patty cakes with him lately, I need some entertainment.

    You're just sour I had Taylor pegged since last year and you didn't.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreshBaked 24 7 View Post
    If that's a highlight reel hen it's poor. Taylor was being handled on half the plays
    Quote Originally Posted by Slikmojet View Post
    Dude are you high? Taylor played himself a hell of a game here, look at the way he takes on blocks and sheds them and pursues the ball carrier, this guy is a load that will need constant attention at the next level. His skills will translate because he's nearly 360 and look at the way he moves, Taylor is clearly a first round talent and the best NT in this draft.


    Show me when he was handled exactly.
    First off, Taylor showed some flashes in the game, but it appeared from the video it happened when the game was already decided and all he had to concern himself with was basic running plays. The TD they show at approximately 0:30 he gets dominated by the C, easily at that.

    Wilkerson appeared to be weak at the point of attack and seemed to guess, albeit correctly, when he did find himself in the position to make plays.

    Like it was pointed out, these are just snapshots of one game for each, but IMO they weren't good videos to pick if you wanted to showcase them.

    And Bit is right, neither position is as much a need as OLB. The Jets need space-eaters at the NT and DE positions for the type of defense they play and playmakers at OLB. They already have the former...
    Last edited by Jetworks; 02-20-2011 at 06:31 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetworks View Post
    First off, Taylor showed some flashes in the game, but it appeared from the video it happened when the game was already decided and all he had to concern himself with was basic running plays. The TD they show at approximately 0:30 he gets dominated by the C, easily at that.

    Wilkerson appeared to be weak at the point of attack and seemed to guess, albeit correctly, when he did find himself in the position to make plays.

    Like it was pointed out, these are just snapshots of one game for each, but IMO they weren't good videos to pick if you wanted to showcase them.

    And Bit is right, neither position is as much a need as OLB. The Jets need space-eaters at the NT and DE positions for the type of defense they play and playmakers at OLB. They already have the former...




    Tackles have to guess all the time, sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't, on that particular play he's shooting a gap, not standing his ground on the nose, very easy to guess wrong, but he does recover his balance in time to try to make a play, very good awareness. I've been watching football a long time and this guy does not move like a 350 pound man should, he's very quick for that size, his strength is evident whenever he gets singled up, he simply is too much for one man to handle. Granted this is just one game, but I counted 4 or 5 tackles and a few hurries and a pass broken up, nice lateral movement to contain a run and overall very good awareness. i wonder how he would fare if they asked him to just hold his ground on the nose, I suspect he would be very difficult to move.

    Like I said, this guy is first round material in a position that is very difficult to find. I don't know about you, but to me a quality NT that can start from day one is more valuable than a linebacker, that's just a fact.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Come Back to NY View Post
    lol- highlight reel?? did you notice its a single game against oklahoma?? did you notice the double teams against taylor in the middle???

    guess not...not a big taylor fan but give the guy credit as, compared to Cody a year ago, he's heading the right direction...
    Kenrick Taylor or Phil Taylor...for this D specifically? To me they're two of the most comparable prospects in the draft...in fact...hold that thought.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Much ado about Nothing View Post
    Kenrick Taylor or Phil Taylor...for this D specifically? To me they're two of the most comparable prospects in the draft...in fact...hold that thought.
    kenrick taylor or kenrick ellis? don't know k taylor....

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Come Back to NY View Post
    kenrick taylor or kenrick ellis? don't know k taylor....
    Ellis...it's the pots they're talking me.

    Mo, I meant I'm on the Taylor bandwagon again in the sense that he's a legit prospect and not a Walter Thomas with a higher profile. He's got real NT potential but it's at least a couple years down the road.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Much ado about Nothing View Post
    Ellis...it's the pots they're talking me.

    Mo, I meant I'm on the Taylor bandwagon again in the sense that he's a legit prospect and not a Walter Thomas with a higher profile. He's got real NT potential but it's at least a couple years down the road.
    Haha I am just messin with ya. I am trying to be more tempered with my assessments than last year. I agree Taylor is raw-ish definitely not gonna step in wreck people. Wilkerson in my opinion is even more raw, gonna take some serious time to develop though he has some nice upside. I like that Taylor could moved around on the DL.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Come Back to NY View Post
    granted you are basing it on what was put in front of you.....

    Taylor is more NFL ready vs Wilkerson- but Wilkerson has All Pro potential vs Taylor, whose upper limit is being a good player....

    They both have downside for different reasons (Taylor- was 390lbs in 2009, Wilkerson is just raw)....

    gun to my head i am taking Wilkerson- no questions....
    I must admit this Wilkerson fellow is very intriguing and could be a real diamond in the rough for Rexy.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Come Back to NY View Post
    granted you are basing it on what was put in front of you.....

    Taylor is more NFL ready vs Wilkerson- but Wilkerson has All Pro potential vs Taylor, whose upper limit is being a good player....

    They both have downside for different reasons (Taylor- was 390lbs in 2009, Wilkerson is just raw)....

    gun to my head i am taking Wilkerson- no questions....
    Wilkerson in the 1st and Kendrick Ellis in the 3rd? Although Ellis probably doesn't last that long?

    A developmental pass rushing OLB in the 4th?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by C Mart View Post
    Wilkerson in the 1st and Kendrick Ellis in the 3rd? Although Ellis probably doesn't last that long?

    A developmental pass rushing OLB in the 4th?
    I would love that.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slikmojet View Post
    Tackles have to guess all the time, sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't, on that particular play he's shooting a gap, not standing his ground on the nose, very easy to guess wrong, but he does recover his balance in time to try to make a play, very good awareness. I've been watching football a long time and this guy does not move like a 350 pound man should, he's very quick for that size, his strength is evident whenever he gets singled up, he simply is too much for one man to handle. Granted this is just one game, but I counted 4 or 5 tackles and a few hurries and a pass broken up, nice lateral movement to contain a run and overall very good awareness. i wonder how he would fare if they asked him to just hold his ground on the nose, I suspect he would be very difficult to move.

    Like I said, this guy is first round material in a position that is very difficult to find. I don't know about you, but to me a quality NT that can start from day one is more valuable than a linebacker, that's just a fact.
    Perhaps what you are describing is correct in a standard 4-3 type of defense, but in a 3-4 or 3-4 hybrid, the NT has two-gap responsibility and should rarely, if ever, guess and shoot gaps. His primary job is to tie up blockers for the LB to move freely and make the play, or wash the blocking scheme and shed to make the tackle.

    As to him being NFL starting material from day 1, I feel that is a stretch. Interior DL is arguably the toughest jump for a player to make from college to the pros. There is so much technique that simply isn't taught in college that the first year is a learning one. Even dominators like Sapp and Jenkins have said as much.

    As I said, quality OLB play is much more crucial to the success of a Rex Ryan-type of defense than an interior DL. Not quite sure how you can say it's a fact otherwise, unless you were talking in a generic sense and not a Jets one. Then I may be inclined to agree with you. Naturally a Ngata-type of player is a no-brainer, but neither of these kids is that.

    EDIT- I re-watched Taylor's video, and I still say he is a nice player, but not dominant. I like the fact that he kept going hard when the game was already decided, but what effect did that have on his responsibilities? The one play where he split the double-team was nice, as was the hip throw pass rush that he had. I just don't know how much he helps the Jets right away and where they need it most, a pass rush.
    Last edited by Jetworks; 02-21-2011 at 01:26 PM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mart View Post
    Wilkerson in the 1st and Kendrick Ellis in the 3rd? Although Ellis probably doesn't last that long?

    A developmental pass rushing OLB in the 4th?
    ellis is going to drop further than most presently predict (4th/5th)- he's got major off the field issues and a bad rap sheet....

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Come Back to NY View Post
    ellis is going to drop further than most presently predict (4th/5th)- he's got major off the field issues and a bad rap sheet....
    OK..thanks for the info...

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Come Back to NY View Post
    granted you are basing it on what was put in front of you.....

    Taylor is more NFL ready vs Wilkerson- but Wilkerson has All Pro potential vs Taylor, whose upper limit is being a good player....

    They both have downside for different reasons (Taylor- was 390lbs in 2009, Wilkerson is just raw)....

    gun to my head i am taking Wilkerson- no questions....
    Pretty much, I haven't been following the prospects as much as I usually do (two jobs and school take up a lot of time haha)

    Is there anymore tape out there? So far my impressions haven't been positive on Wilkerson

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetworks View Post
    Perhaps what you are describing is correct in a standard 4-3 type of defense, but in a 3-4 or 3-4 hybrid, the NT has two-gap responsibility and should rarely, if ever, guess and shoot gaps. His primary job is to tie up blockers for the LB to move freely and make the play, or wash the blocking scheme and shed to make the tackle.

    As to him being NFL starting material from day 1, I feel that is a stretch. Interior DL is arguably the toughest jump for a player to make from college to the pros. There is so much technique that simply isn't taught in college that the first year is a learning one. Even dominators like Sapp and Jenkins have said as much.

    As I said, quality OLB play is much more crucial to the success of a Rex Ryan-type of defense than an interior DL. Not quite sure how you can say it's a fact otherwise, unless you were talking in a generic sense and not a Jets one. Then I may be inclined to agree with you. Naturally a Ngata-type of player is a no-brainer, but neither of these kids is that.

    EDIT- I re-watched Taylor's video, and I still say he is a nice player, but not dominant. I like the fact that he kept going hard when the game was already decided, but what effect did that have on his responsibilities? The one play where he split the double-team was nice, as was the hip throw pass rush that he had. I just don't know how much he helps the Jets right away and where they need it most, a pass rush.



    Not saying we don't need a pass rushing linebacker, which we do. I'm just saying it's harder to find a quality NT than it is an OLB, the thing about Taylor is that he doesn't look or move like a 350 pound man. If this guy gets good coaching the sky's the limit because the physical aspects are there, he also has a good motor and good instincts. Just saying Taylor in the first would not be a reach at all.

    By the way guys like Jenkins and Ngata generate pressure not only when they rush up the middle but when they force the offensive line to double team them. Pouha is a nice player but he will never command the double teams that Jenkins does, I think taylor is the kind of player that will demand constant attention.
    Last edited by Slikmojet; 02-21-2011 at 07:42 PM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slikmojet View Post
    Not saying we don't need a pass rushing linebacker, which we do. I'm just saying it's harder to find a quality NT than it is an OLB, the thing about Taylor is that he doesn't look or move like a 350 pound man. If this guy gets good coaching the sky's the limit because the physical aspects are there, he also has a good motor and good instincts. Just saying Taylor in the first would not be a reach at all.

    By the way guys like Jenkins and Ngata generate pressure not only when they rush up the middle but when they force the offensive line to double team them. Pouha is a nice player but he will never command the double teams that Jenkins does, I think taylor is the kind of player that will demand constant attention.
    Maybe...

    But like I said before, I'm in no way convinced that Taylor is a better prospect than Jerrell Powe who could be had in the 3rd round. Powe certainly isn't winning any IQ tests, but football is his life and he's a load to handle for even the most tested offensive lineman.

    Let's just say when we go on the clock in round 1, we have a trio of Taylor, Wilkerson, and Ballard staring us in the face. Well, I'm taking Ballard/Wilkerson and not thinking twice about it.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Slikmojet View Post
    Not saying we don't need a pass rushing linebacker, which we do. I'm just saying it's harder to find a quality NT than it is an OLB, the thing about Taylor is that he doesn't look or move like a 350 pound man. If this guy gets good coaching the sky's the limit because the physical aspects are there, he also has a good motor and good instincts. Just saying Taylor in the first would not be a reach at all.

    By the way guys like Jenkins and Ngata generate pressure not only when they rush up the middle but when they force the offensive line to double team them. Pouha is a nice player but he will never command the double teams that Jenkins does, I think taylor is the kind of player that will demand constant attention.
    Bingo.

    How many sacks did Ngata get last season? 5.5 Wilfork? 2.0 Casey Hampton? 1.0

    I love it when people say "this NT prospect has no pass rush" well duh. Their job is not to sack the QB that's primarily the DE's, OLB's and whoever's blitzing. A good nose will eat up blockers up the middle to make those guys' job easier.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorJet View Post
    Bingo.

    How many sacks did Ngata get last season? 5.5 Wilfork? 2.0 Casey Hampton? 1.0

    I love it when people say "this NT prospect has no pass rush" well duh. Their job is not to sack the QB that's primarily the DE's, OLB's and whoever's blitzing. A good nose will eat up blockers up the middle to make those guys' job easier.
    plus, i imagine he's very good against the run. let's not forget about stopping the run.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by C Mart View Post
    Wilkerson in the 1st and Kendrick Ellis in the 3rd? Although Ellis probably doesn't last that long?

    A developmental pass rushing OLB in the 4th?
    Bruce Miller is a decent pass rushing OLB developmental guy....prob will even be around later as i heard (on the board) that he isnt too much of an athlete and isnt expected to turn heads at the combine.

    I think our best move is to move back into the top 10 of the second round. Its a bit of a risk, but it gets us another 3rd round pick.

    Then we can hopefully take Brooks Reed, but if we lose out and someone grabs him, then choose between the remaing Dlinemen (someone from heyward, taylor, paea, nevis, etc will have to be there....) or go with rahim moore.

    Then use one of the 3rds to take ellis (Even if its high) and the other to possilby find a young WR to replace either braylon or holmes at some point.

    Finish up with Hagg in 4th, Herzlich in the 5th, and BPA (even a RB) and we have a decent group of young defensive players to work with...

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