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Thread: Gov. Walker

  1. #1
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    Gov. Walker

    Is the best thing to ever happen to this country. The teachers are showing their true face. It is all about Power and Money the children come in third. The Democrats have been seen as the weaklings they are. Run and Hide!
    Recall all the Democrats NOW!

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    Here's some information that I found interesting.

    http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/20...oyee-pensions/

    You know, I think its funny that teachers are painted as greedy because they want to keep their benefits. As if they should all volunteer their time. What a crock. They have a good retirement plan. But no one EVER complained about it until THEIR OWN 401Ks tanked. We talk a good game about wanting to improve education, good luck with that now as the profession gets treated like criminals because they want states to stick to the deals they made.

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    Give any Union two options:

    1. Layoffs

    2. Pay Cuts

    And see which one they pick every time.

    The answer will tell you alot about what really matters to them.

    And to reply to FF2....

    They don't have a "good" plan, they have an amazing plan (health/retirement) that puts average annual compensation at or over $100,000.00 a year. Forgive me, but I do not weep for them in today's economy.

    I'm all for education. I'm not for the cost of the mediocre level of education currently being provided in Wisconsin costing the taxpayer over $100K a year in compensation, average.

    As I've said repeatedly, the taxpayer is the "management" vs. public service unions, put their compensation rates to refeerendum, and let the people, not the paid-for-politicians, decide what is appropriate these days.
    Last edited by Warfish; 02-26-2011 at 11:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Give any Union two options:

    1. Layoffs

    2. Pay Cuts

    And see which one they pick every time.

    The answer will tell you alot about what really matters to them.
    This isn't about pay cuts anymore. The unions in Wisconsin have accepted Gov. Walker's budget cuts. But that wasn't enough for him. He wants to bust unions by going after collective bargaining. None of this would of happened if that wasn't in the bill. Chris Christie has been catching crap here in NJ for all his cuts in the budget, but it's nothing like in Wisconsin because even he isn't going after union members rights to collectively bargain. Neither is Mitch Daniels in Indiana or Rick Scott in Florida.
    Last edited by Tyler Durden; 02-27-2011 at 02:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Give any Union two options:

    1. Layoffs

    2. Pay Cuts

    And see which one they pick every time.

    The answer will tell you alot about what really matters to them.

    And to reply to FF2....

    They don't have a "good" plan, they have an amazing plan (health/retirement) that puts average annual compensation at or over $100,000.00 a year. Forgive me, but I do not weep for them in today's economy.

    I'm all for education. I'm not for the cost of the mediocre level of education currently being provided in Wisconsin costing the taxpayer over $100K a year in compensation, average.

    As I've said repeatedly, the taxpayer is the "management" vs. public service unions, put their compensation rates to refeerendum, and let the people, not the paid-for-politicians, decide what is appropriate these days
    .
    Yes let the people decide, but then let the people suffer the consequences. If the people screw over the teachers, no good candidates will be going into the teching profession. When that happens, i dont want to hear from the people how there are no good teachers and how education is going down the drain.

    Here in NY most teachers do not make $100,000 or more. And making $100,000 in NYC or Long Island hardly makes you rich, in fact you are not even living very comfortably with that income.

    When you consider CEOs of failing companies and Wall Street executives are making more than that in one month, sorry, but i dont think its outrageous to expect a public school teachers salary to be approaching $100,000

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    Quote Originally Posted by FF2 View Post
    Here's some information that I found interesting.

    http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/20...oyee-pensions/

    You know, I think its funny that teachers are painted as greedy because they want to keep their benefits. As if they should all volunteer their time. What a crock. They have a good retirement plan. But no one EVER complained about it until THEIR OWN 401Ks tanked. We talk a good game about wanting to improve education, good luck with that now as the profession gets treated like criminals because they want states to stick to the deals they made.
    you Obama lovinglibs will never, ever get it...this from this morning's NY Daily News...def not a conservative-tinted editorial page...times are a changin


    http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/..._scammers.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
    This isn't about pay cuts anymore. The unions in Wisconsin have accepted Gov. Walker's budget cuts.
    That's the part stupid f*ck Republicans just can't seem to grasp. Must be hard to read their monitor with all the anti-American spittle they spray on it while working themselves into hate-filled seizures every day.

    Again:

    The unions in Wisconsin have accepted Gov. Walker's budget cuts.


    Here...so "y'all" can read through the spittle:

    The unions in Wisconsin have accepted Gov. Walker's budget cuts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FF2 View Post
    Here's some information that I found interesting.

    http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/20...oyee-pensions/

    You know, I think its funny that teachers are painted as greedy because they want to keep their benefits. As if they should all volunteer their time. What a crock. They have a good retirement plan. But no one EVER complained about it until THEIR OWN 401Ks tanked. We talk a good game about wanting to improve education, good luck with that now as the profession gets treated like criminals because they want states to stick to the deals they made.
    That article is clearly written with an agenda in mind. Teachers should be paid well, no question. BUT when a private school pays say 45K and a public school pays 80K there is a problem. I have done many tax returns for teachers in NY and most of them make at , near or above 100K.

    Teachers brought this on themselves unfortunately and NONE of us like it. Teachers here in NC are treated like 2nd class citizens and that is the other end. They make around 40K after a few years. We lose good teachers because of the low pay. BUT another 10K would fix it, we don't need 25K more to attract talent.

    Costs need to be brought into reason and if one kid becomes a teacher and the other say a "graphics designer" for a private company company, their beneifts should be similar. Oh..the graphics designer works all year, I forgot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MnJetFan View Post
    Is the best thing to ever happen to this country. The teachers are showing their true face. It is all about Power and Money the children come in third. The Democrats have been seen as the weaklings they are. Run and Hide!
    Recall all the Democrats NOW!
    Hang your hat on Gov. Walker? Have fun, he's a flash in the pan and will not be heard from again after he is not re-elected. Fox News will hire him.

    Walker is proof positive that dumb people can get elected too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
    This isn't about pay cuts anymore. The unions in Wisconsin have accepted Gov. Walker's budget cuts. But that wasn't enough for him. He wants to bust unions by going after collective bargaining.
    Thats correct. Without the removal of Public Union Collective Bargaining (whihc, it should be reminded, the "right" does not believe should exist at all) any reductions today will (in theory) simply be returned (regardless of the economy) in the next round of bargaining.

    The right does not believe (as many Democrats did for ages) that Public Sector Unions should have that power, for the reasons stated previously by a variety of posters.

    None of this would of happened if that wasn't in the bill.
    I do not believe that. I believe a de-facto strike would have occured only for the pay cut/benefit contribution issues alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    Yes let the people decide, but then let the people suffer the consequences.
    We (the people) suffr the consequences one way or the other.

    If the people screw over the teachers
    Define, specificly, "screw over". The benefits of Wisconisn teachers (given theri cost of living up there) hardly seems to qualify as "screwing".

    no good candidates will be going into the teching profession.
    Well, that would be an issue.....when it happens. Far as I know, there are no teacher shortages due to pay anywhere at current. Shortages due to bad neighborhoods, yes, pay...not so much.

    When that happens, i dont want to hear from the people how there are no good teachers and how education is going down the drain.
    The larger issue of education is one that will continue to be a debate, as many on the right believe public education, as sinkhole of spending and failure, is the core problem. As such, to that side, education will not improve until the Govt. no longer has a de-facto taxpayer funded manopoly of education, and parents can choose to use their portion of taxpayer support to take their child to the school they choose, not the one the Govt. chooses.


    Here in NY most teachers do not make $100,000 or more. And making $100,000 in NYC or Long Island hardly makes you rich, in fact you are not even living very comfortably with that income.
    We're not talking about New York, we're talking about Wisconsin. A state with a poor record of education performance, and where the cost of living makes 100K of benefits a year ook quite nice.

    And frankly, I wouldn;t feel bad for a New Yorker either. I work a job that takes more education, hours, intelligence and effort that "2nd Grade Teacher", live in an area as expensive as NY, and I don't make half what the Wisconisn teacher do. The can cry me a river tbh.

    When you consider CEOs of failing companies and Wall Street executives are making more than that in one month, sorry, but i dont think its outrageous to expect a public school teachers salary to be approaching $100,000
    Please explain the connection between the pay rate of a private company employee, and the pay rate of a public union member paid for by the taxpayers. Sorry Ken, apples and airplanes is what you're trying to compare here. There is no connection between the two in any form, other than the usual class warfare and jealosy based arguments that (apparentlyu) everyone should make exactly the same.

    For example, I'd bet you make far more than I. Is that wrong? If not, you'll have to explain why it's wrong for a private CEO to make X and a 2nd grade teacher to make less. Different jobs, different sources of that pay, different parties responsible for paying it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    That's the part stupid f*ck Republicans just can't seem to grasp. Must be hard to read their monitor with all the anti-American spittle they spray on it while working themselves into hate-filled seizures every day.
    There is some irony in this coming from you old friend, you've been very angry of late. Hope all is ok with you and the lady, cause you seem very very aggressive, unusual for the usually lighthearted PK I know. That "FUUUU" graphic is quite apropos for your posts if late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    Yes let the people decide, but then let the people suffer the consequences. If the people screw over the teachers, no good candidates will be going into the teching profession. When that happens, i dont want to hear from the people how there are no good teachers and how education is going down the drain.

    Here in NY most teachers do not make $100,000 or more. And making $100,000 in NYC or Long Island hardly makes you rich, in fact you are not even living very comfortably with that income.

    When you consider CEOs of failing companies and Wall Street executives are making more than that in one month, sorry, but i dont think its outrageous to expect a public school teachers salary to be approaching $100,000
    When the day comes that we have a teacher shortage their labor will be worth substantially more money having nothing to do with collective bargaining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FF2 View Post
    Here's some information that I found interesting.

    http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/20...oyee-pensions/

    You know, I think its funny that teachers are painted as greedy because they want to keep their benefits. As if they should all volunteer their time. What a crock. They have a good retirement plan. But no one EVER complained about it until THEIR OWN 401Ks tanked. We talk a good game about wanting to improve education, good luck with that now as the profession gets treated like criminals because they want states to stick to the deals they made.
    It is the people who's 401K plans got whacked who are going to have to make up the shortfall in the public pensions. The public pensions just like the 401K plans are now grossly underfunded the difference is unlike the 401K plans they are guaranteed.

    Local government for years have been underfunding based on unrealistic projections in pension fund gains. Now that reality has set in the public at large realizes how bad these deals actually were for the taxpayer and how sweet they were for the Union members. It's not hard to understand the outrage for these backroom deals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    Yes let the people decide, but then let the people suffer the consequences. If the people screw over the teachers, no good candidates will be going into the teching profession. When that happens, i dont want to hear from the people how there are no good teachers and how education is going down the drain.

    Here in NY most teachers do not make $100,000 or more. And making $100,000 in NYC or Long Island hardly makes you rich, in fact you are not even living very comfortably with that income.

    When you consider CEOs of failing companies and Wall Street executives are making more than that in one month, sorry, but i dont think its outrageous to expect a public school teachers salary to be approaching $100,000
    Spoken like a true public school teacher or someone closely related to one. More than 1/2 the property tax burden on LI is school taxes so that is the major reason the cost of living is high on LI. Sort of like a fireman setting a fire and justifying his job?

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    "screw over teachers" is liberal for "treat them exactly the same as the rest of us"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Give any Union two options:

    1. Layoffs

    2. Pay Cuts

    And see which one they pick every time.

    The answer will tell you alot about what really matters to them.

    And to reply to FF2....

    They don't have a "good" plan, they have an amazing plan (health/retirement) that puts average annual compensation at or over $100,000.00 a year. Forgive me, but I do not weep for them in today's economy.

    I'm all for education. I'm not for the cost of the mediocre level of education currently being provided in Wisconsin costing the taxpayer over $100K a year in compensation, average.

    As I've said repeatedly, the taxpayer is the "management" vs. public service unions, put their compensation rates to refeerendum, and let the people, not the paid-for-politicians, decide what is appropriate these days.
    Fish, I only WISH teachers had Option 1 and 2. Sadly they have been accepting BOTH for quite a while now. In my town we lose about 15-20 teachers (WITH increased enrollment each year) a near and teachers haven't had a raise (or contract) for 4 years.

    I don't know a single teacher who chose the profession for money. If you somehow manage to survive in the profession for 25 years (in Mass.) you might be at that $100,000 total compensation package. And frankly I don't see that as outrageous. Don't people who work in the private sector approach that? I am curious what you think those with Masters degrees who have succeeded at a company for 25 years compensation should be? $50,000? $40,000?

    I don't think there is any respect for the profession. People think its babysitting and anyone can do it. They are clueless as to what it takes these days. Just the amount of paperwork that's been added the past few years is staggering. The red tape and bull**** they have to deal with before the day even starts is mind boggling. It's a stressful difficult job on the best of days. I think people also have no idea the extra things teachers do. Time spent on clubs and other activites they are not compensated for. I am guessing you can wave goodbye to this now that the public has shown their contempt for teachers in general. Its sad really.

    And why is teaching the only profession where they are expected to not want as high a salary as they can get? It's their profession for gods sake. Like everyone else they have families to take care of. Can you imagine an engineer agreeing to a pay cut to save someone else's job. I can't and I don't blame him. Like all professions teaching is competitive and here in the good old USA we try and make as much money as possible.

    But as others have said, teachers HAVE accepted cuts. I repeat: HAVE ACCEPTED CUTS. Wisconsin is about busting the union, nothing less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    It is the people who's 401K plans got whacked who are going to have to make up the shortfall in the public pensions. The public pensions just like the 401K plans are now grossly underfunded the difference is unlike the 401K plans they are guaranteed.

    Local government for years have been underfunding based on unrealistic projections in pension fund gains. Now that reality has set in the public at large realizes how bad these deals actually were for the taxpayer and how sweet they were for the Union members. It's not hard to understand the outrage for these backroom deals.
    You are right on target until the end. Compensation is based on negotiated contracts. Not "backroom deals." There is absolutely nothing nefarious about it. Contracts are public record.

    So, take a state like Wisconsin...they underfund for years and now decide the answer is....DECERTIFY THE UNION! On what planet does this make sense?

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    Interesting note about a politician leaving to avoid a vote:

    Ward Hill Lamon was Lincoln's friend in Illinois, and served as Marshal of the District of Columbia during the administration of President Lincoln. When the state bank was threatened in the Illinois legislature, the Whigs came to its defence by absenting themselves to prevent a quorum, leaving just Lincoln and one other behind to call ayes and noes. When the Sergeant-at-Arms rounded up some Whigs, the dedicated Lincoln jumped out a window in a failed attempt to thwart a quorum.

    Ward Hill Lamon, The Life of Abraham Lincoln, 1872, pp. 216-8

    This session (the session of 1840-1) had been called two weeks earlier than usual, to provide for the January interest on the debt. But the banks had important business of their own in view, and proceeded to improve the occasion. In 1837, and every year since then, the banks had succeeded in getting acts of the Legislature which condoned their suspension of specie payments. But, by the terms of the last act, their charters were forfeited unless they resumed before the adjournment of the next session. The Democrats, however, maintained that the present special session was a session in the sense of the law, and that, before its adjournment, the banks must hand out "the hard," or die. On the other hand, the Whigs held this session, and the regular session which began on the first Monday in December, to be one and the same, and proposed to give the banks another winter's lease upon life and rags. But the banks were a power in the land, and knew how to make themselves felt. They were the depositories of the State revenues. The auditor's warrants were drawn upon them, and the members of the Legislature paid in their money. The warrants were at a discount of fifty per cent; and, if the banks refused to cash them, the members would be compelled to go home more impecunious than they came. The banks, moreover, knew how to make "opportune loans to Democrats;" and, with all these aids, they organized a brilliant and eventually a successful campaign. In the eyes of the Whigs they were "the institutions of the country," and the Democrats were guilty of incivism in attacking them. But the Democrats retorted with a string of overwhelming slang about rag barons, rags, printed lies, bank vassals, ragocracy, and the "British-bought, bank, blue-light, Federal, Whig party." It was a fierce and bitter contest; and, witnessing it, one might have supposed that the very existence of the State, with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, depended upon the result. The Democrats were bent upon carrying an adjournment sine die; which, according to their theory, killed the banks. To defeat this, the Whigs resorted to every expedient of parliamentary tactics, and at length hit upon one entirely unknown to any of the standard manuals: they tried to absent themselves in sufficient numbers to leave no quorum behind. "If the Whigs absented themselves," says Mr. Gillespie, a Whig member, "there would not be a quorum left, even with the two who should be deputed to call the ayes and noes. The Whigs immediately held a meeting, and resolved that they would all stay out, except Lincoln and me, who were to call the ayes and noes. We appeared in the afternoon: motion to adjourn sine die was made, and we called the ayes and noes. The Democrats discovered the game, and the sergeant-at-arms was sent out to gather up the absentees. There was great excitement in the House, which was then held in a church at Springfield. We soon discovered that several Whigs had been caught and brought in, and that the plan had been spoiled; and we Lincoln and I determined to leave the hall, and, going to the door, found it locked, and then raised a window and jumped out, but not until the Democrats had succeeded in adjourning. Mr. Gridley of McLean accompanied us in our exit. ... I think Mr. Lincoln always regretted that he entered into that arrangement, as he deprecated every thing that savored of the revolutionary."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FF2 View Post
    You are right on target until the end. Compensation is based on negotiated contracts. Not "backroom deals." There is absolutely nothing nefarious about it. Contracts are public record.

    So, take a state like Wisconsin...they underfund for years and now decide the answer is....DECERTIFY THE UNION! On what planet does this make sense?
    A Union that through forced contibutions is backing candidates has created an ethics conflict for the elected officials. They can't negiotate in good faith they are in the Unions pockets.

    The public sector Union doesn't have any stake in negiotating a fair deal because they are negiotating with a monopoly. This is compeletley different then a Union negiotating in the private sector where the Union's interest is alligned with management to some extent. They need the company to survive in a competitive environment. Public Unions have no such common interest.

    There is no collective bargaining at the Federal level and there shouldn't be at the State level. If wages are to low we won't have people who want to be Cops, fireman and Teachers and the wages will go up.

    Look at the PR campaign the UFT is waging in NY against a pro union mayor right now.

    Unions and public officials have for decades screwed the taxpayers with back room deals that have put much of the countries local and State governments and their citizens in severe jeopardy.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 02-27-2011 at 12:47 PM.

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    I agree that teachers in general are not the enemy. I for one would not want to spend one day with a room full of other people's snotty, self-obsessed, delusionally self-confident brats, of any age.

    But anyone who knows anything about the "rubber rooms" in NYc and otehr areas full of teachers thatthey can't put back in the class room (b/c they're suspected diddlers, etc) and can't fire. Just another broken system in a country chock full of 'em.

    Also, I love how no wants to, in this PC culture, talk about the crushing illegal immgration situation as it relates to our rotting education system. Add, students by the truckload to already overcrowded classrooms? Sure. What's that you say, the can't speak English at all so we should accomodate them at taxpayer expense, b/c their parents succeded in sneaking into the country? Sure!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    A Union that through forced contibutions is backing candidates has created an ethics conflict for the elected officials. They can't negiotate in good faith they are in the Unions pockets.

    The public sector Union doesn't have any stake in negiotating a fair deal because they are negiotating with a monopoly. This is compeletley different then a Union negiotating in the private sector where the Union's interest is alligned with management to some extent. They need the company to survive in a competitive environment. Public Unions have no such common interest.

    There is no collective bargaining at the Federal level and there shouldn't be at the State level. If wages are to low we won't have people who want to be Cops, fireman and Teachers and the wages will go up.

    Look at the PR campaign the UFT is waging in NY against a pro union mayor right now.

    Unions and public officials have for decades screwed the taxpayers with back room deals that have put much of the countries local and State governments and their citizens in severe jeopardy.
    Yes, unions back pols who will be favorable to them. That makes them alot like private companies. But its a drop in the bucket compared to what they've done for Wall Street. Where's the outrage there? I guess its easier to go after teachers. I guess cops and fire are next. I just wonder what the low point will be, when people will start to wonder if maybe we've lowered the bar too much. That because "we" pay their salary it should be as low as possible. Then we all complain about poor services. It's insanity.

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