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Thread: Inside Job

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    Inside Job

    Documentary that is fairly enlightening viewing and is scathing of both sides of politics, as well as the entire discipline of Economics.

    After watching this I think Obama comes out of it the worst as effectively he has included people in his administration who are now known criminals, whereas the Republicans were just given bad advice by people they thought at the time were experts.

    If you want to know and understand why the US economy is down the toilet, this is vital viewing.

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    i dont understand why people say the economy is down the toilet... a bubble burst. it happens. it lost a bunch of jobs, it is slowly gaining them back. it's not the fault of any single President that the bubble was created nor is it any single President's fault that it burst. welcome to capitalism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    i dont understand why people say the economy is down the toilet... a bubble burst. it happens. it lost a bunch of jobs, it is slowly gaining them back. it's not the fault of any single President that the bubble was created nor is it any single President's fault that it burst. welcome to capitalism.
    I would say its down the lavatory because of the levels of debt, both public and private, you are looking at in your country. I'm not saying its an irretrievable situation, because the USA is still by far the world's largest economy, but the US is shrinking relative to the economies of some other countries.

    What Inside Job makes clear however is that the same group of people who got the US into this fix in the first place still have their hands at the controls. It's not a good situation when those deciding economic policies in the USA are those who engineered the Sub Prime Mortgage crisis and the subsequent Global Financial Crisis. Not only that, but they profited hugely from those situations.

    Obama came to power with a promise of change - he promised reform in the financial sector, but he has appointed the very same people who profited from the previous system that left millions broke. It's no surprise there has been no significant change in Washington under Obama's leadership. The laws remain the same and the finance sector still donates billions of $ to both sides of politics. There are still 5 lobbyists from the finance sector for every elected politician in Washington.

    Obama claims he's the people's President, but in reality his government is a Wall-Street Presidency. Without true government for the majority of you people your economy will teeter from one bubble to bust to another, with those bankers at the very top profiting every time.

    The only reason your economy "appears" to be recovering is because your Fed is printing more money - and hence the next bubble will commence. In reality your economy is on very thin ice and it won't take much of a shock to tip it back where the figures say it should be.

    Your total debt levels are now more than twice what they were at the worst stage of the Great Depression in terms of a proportion of GDP.

    It sickens me to see such a great country and great people reduced to where you are now - but it really is the decisions of a very few people who have put you there and it's not too late to change things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Death View Post
    but the US is shrinking relative to the economies of some other countries.
    ok ill bite. Like who? the Euro on the verge of collapse? Japan stagflation and natural disasters? China can't get clean milk to their children? There are bigger growth numbers but US is still driving the world economy. USA actually leads the world in manufacturing and many other standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Death View Post
    Obama claims he's the people's President, but in reality his government is a Wall-Street Presidency.
    I don't think Obama ever claimed to be the people's President. He was always in bed with Wall St. If he wasn't he wouldn't have been elected. I agree there is room for further reform... but let's not pretend that Obama was some kind of outsider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Death View Post
    Without true government for the majority of you people your economy will teeter from one bubble to bust to another, with those bankers at the very top profiting every time.
    as it has for hundreds of years. boom, bust, rinse and repeat, that's pure capitalism. the surprise is that it hasn't really happened since the Great Depression. but before that this boom/bust cycle happened every decade or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Death View Post
    It sickens me to see such a great country and great people reduced to where you are now
    yeah #1 what a tough place to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    ok ill bite. Like who? the Euro on the verge of collapse? Japan stagflation and natural disasters? China can't get clean milk to their children? There are bigger growth numbers but US is still driving the world economy. USA actually leads the world in manufacturing and many other standards.
    Yeah, it's leading. Now. Can't say what it will be in a few decades time though. Exactly what sort of country it is when the top 1% (in income terms) have scooped most of the wealth off the rest by using their access to governments via lobbyists, and 90% increasingly are finding it harder and harder to make ends meet.

    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    I don't think Obama ever claimed to be the people's President. He was always in bed with Wall St. If he wasn't he wouldn't have been elected. I agree there is room for further reform... but let's not pretend that Obama was some kind of outsider.
    Obama came in with explicit promises of financial reform with the express intention of stopping such situations as the Global Financial Crisis from happening again. He hasn't delivered on any of those promises that he made. He made out he wasn't "in bed" with Wall Street, but that is a lie. Clearly you had your head in the sand when Obama was on the campaign trail.


    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    as it has for hundreds of years. boom, bust, rinse and repeat, that's pure capitalism. the surprise is that it hasn't really happened since the Great Depression. but before that this boom/bust cycle happened every decade or so.
    You make it sound as if the misery caused by this situation is like a natural part of the world - like the lion hunting the antelope - when in actual fact it is totally artificial and totally man-made and totally avoidable. It has nothing to do with capitalism, and everything to do with avarice.


    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    yeah #1 what a tough place to be.
    Yeah, I'd like to be hocked to the hilt and to be unable to pay a mortgage because I've just been retrenched because of the GFC. I'd like to be living from pay check to pay check or worse still be living in a tent with no job at all and no prospect of one, as many millions in your country are right now. I'd like to be living in a place where infrastructure is crumbling to pieces, local governments are going broke and the only "hope" for the nation is a liar who entered office promising wide reforms, but instead has delivered diddly squat, meanwhile employing the same people in his administration who have piled misery upon misery on those who elected him in the first place.

    The place might not be tough for you, but it is for a lot of other people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    i dont understand why people say the economy is down the toilet... a bubble burst. it happens. it lost a bunch of jobs, it is slowly gaining them back. it's not the fault of any single President that the bubble was created nor is it any single President's fault that it burst. welcome to capitalism.
    LOL. You don't understand why people say the economy is in the toilet. I wonder - does anyone here besides you seriously, seriously doubt you'd be saying the same thing if we had the identical economy and a Republican President in office?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JetPotato View Post
    ...you'd be saying the same thing if we had the identical economy and a Republican President in office?
    I dunno. What would YOU be saying if we had the identical economy and a Republican President in office?

    Beuller?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    I dunno. What would YOU be saying if we had the identical economy and a Republican President in office?

    Beuller?
    I'd say exactly what I'm saying now. Which is exactly what I was saying when Bush was in office.

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    We need a person who actually ran a business one in their life not another friggin lawyer. The one thing they know is how to cover their asses and thats about it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JetPotato View Post
    LOL. You don't understand why people say the economy is in the toilet. I wonder - does anyone here besides you seriously, seriously doubt you'd be saying the same thing if we had the identical economy and a Republican President in office?
    I watch the economy very closely and we've been out of recession for many months. The stock market has been doing great. There is growth, there are jobs coming back. the guy says down the toilet like we are in bread lines, the numbers don't back that up. this guy Black Death makes it out like we'd all be better off moving to mexico.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MnJetFan View Post
    We need a person who actually ran a business one in their life not another friggin lawyer. The one thing they know is how to cover their asses and thats about it!
    Why would anyone want to run for President?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    I watch the economy very closely and we've been out of recession for many months. The stock market has been doing great. There is growth, there are jobs coming back. the guy says down the toilet like we are in bread lines, the numbers don't back that up. this guy Black Death makes it out like we'd all be better off moving to mexico.
    The US stockmarket has been in a secular bear market for some years now - why are you saying the stockmarket is "doing great"?



    What we are experiencing now is a bear-market rally, that will soon peter out. It's likely we will experience at least 2 more recessions before we run into another bull market. There is a lot of pain between then and now however. There is also evidence to suggest this bear market will be even longer and deeper than normal.

    For your economy the central question is how much of aggregate demand is financed via debt - because it was when the debt conked out (ie you went to delevereging mode) that your economy experienced serious problems recently.

    The Obama government (and he is not alone in this) has not tackled the issue of your debt - that's why the apparent "prosperity" you claim you have is a furphy. It's a prosperity built on debt and thus is a castle made of sand. At some stage you have to reel in your debt obligations and then serious problems will ensue. See this chart showing both your country and mine in terms of how much debt makes up demand, and note the strong correlation between your debt-financed demand diving south and your economy doing the same:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Death View Post
    The Obama government (and he is not alone in this) has not tackled the issue of your debt
    this is the key phrase. All gov'ts have some sort of problem. For US, Japan, most of Europe it's debt. there are so called stronger economies like China and Germany financing that debt but at the end of the day i don't see why it's such a huge concern. they will handle the spending and raise taxes after 2012 election... or not... but either way the sun will rise tomorrow.

    Where do you live that things are so hopeful and economically healthy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    this is the key phrase. All gov'ts have some sort of problem. For US, Japan, most of Europe it's debt. there are so called stronger economies like China and Germany financing that debt but at the end of the day i don't see why it's such a huge concern. they will handle the spending and raise taxes after 2012 election... or not... but either way the sun will rise tomorrow.

    Where do you live that things are so hopeful and economically healthy?
    Australia - we are probably the only developed country to be basically untouched by the GFC, though that is an outcome of good fortune rather than good planning.

    With that phrase I was more referring to your previous Presidents; Reagan/Bush 1 and 2 built/added massively to your public debt. Under Clinton your debt remained largely static though he more than anyone is guilty of deregulating your banking system so that the sub-prime mortgage crisis came about.

    Our (Australian) government has been pretty good in terms of its own debt levels - we did have to pump through a massive amount of liquidity into our economy to avert disaster, but that is the only debt we really have to pay back and we are well on the way to doing so. However in terms of private debt we have a huge amount - mainly because of an enormous housing bubble that has left our cities among the most unaffordable in the world to live in.

    The US economy is the one that drives the rest of the world - if it is relying heavily on debt to do this that is not a good thing long-term. Debt should really be used to improve infrastructure/productivity - when it makes up a substantial amount of demand the eventual outcome is inevitable - a deep recession when this prop to the economy is taken away (as it has to in order to pay the debt back. Trees don't grow to the sun and nor can debt be kept growing for ever).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Death View Post
    The US stockmarket has been in a secular bear market for some years now - why are you saying the stockmarket is "doing great"?



    What we are experiencing now is a bear-market rally, that will soon peter out. It's likely we will experience at least 2 more recessions before we run into another bull market. There is a lot of pain between then and now however. There is also evidence to suggest this bear market will be even longer and deeper than normal.

    For your economy the central question is how much of aggregate demand is financed via debt - because it was when the debt conked out (ie you went to delevereging mode) that your economy experienced serious problems recently.

    The Obama government (and he is not alone in this) has not tackled the issue of your debt - that's why the apparent "prosperity" you claim you have is a furphy. It's a prosperity built on debt and thus is a castle made of sand. At some stage you have to reel in your debt obligations and then serious problems will ensue. See this chart showing both your country and mine in terms of how much debt makes up demand, and note the strong correlation between your debt-financed demand diving south and your economy doing the same:

    While Govt debt is obscene by any measure US consumer debt is down, savings are up and Corporate balance sheets are very healthy.

    Based on the events of the last few days the markets have responded very well. This looks like a correction in a bull market not a shut down of the worlds third largest economy coupled with a nuclear melt down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    While Govt debt is obscene by any measure US consumer debt is down, savings are up and Corporate balance sheets are very healthy.

    Based on the events of the last few days the markets have responded very well. This looks like a correction in a bull market not a shut down of the worlds third largest economy coupled with a nuclear melt down.
    Corporate balance sheets are indeed healthy - companies are sitting on huge piles of cash. The question is how that cash got there in the first place and the answer by and large is because of debt. Effectively there has just been a shift of wealth from consumers/government straight into the coffers of companies.

    I agree that world markets have responded well to events of recent days - though I suspect much of that was to do with the location of the tsunami which was in an area that amounted to only 8% of Japan's industrial base. Japan is another huge economy like the USA, though both places share similar problems, especially over the longer haul in terms of demographics.

    Can't say I see this market in bullish terms - yes it has rallied from a low base over many months, but that is not unheard of in a secular bear market. You have to remember interest rates cannot fall much further than what they have so government is losing its ability to artificially stimulate the US economy.

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