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Thread: Why Libya and Iraq 2003 are nothing alike.

  1. #1
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    Why Libya and Iraq 2003 are nothing alike.

    [QUOTE]1. The action in Libya was authorized by the United Nations Security Council. Iraq was not.

    2. The Libyan people had risen up gainst the Qaddafi regime. He lost controll over a great deal of populated territory before he started firing into peaceful crowds. In Iraq there was no similar popular movement against Saddam
    Hussein.

    3. There was an ongoing massacre of civilians, and the threat of more such massacres in Benghazi, by the Qaddafi regime, which precipitated the UNSC resolution. Although the Saddam Hussein regime had massacred people in the 1980s and early 1990s, nothing was going on in 2002-2003 that would have required international intervention.

    4. The Arab League urged the UNSC to take action against the Qaddafi regime, and in many ways precipitated Resolution 1973. The Arab League met in 2002 and expressed opposition to a war on Iraq. (Reports of Arab League backtracking on Sunday were incorrect, based on a remark of outgoing Secretary-General Amr Moussa that criticized the taking out of anti-aircraft batteries. The Arab League reaffirmed Sunday and Moussa agreed Monday that the No-Fly Zone is what it wants).

    5. None of the United Nations allies envisages landing troops on the ground, nor does the UNSC authorize it. Iraq was invaded by land forces.

    6. No false allegations were made against the Qaddafi regime, of being in league with al-Qaeda or of having a nuclear weapons program. The charge is massacre of peaceful civilian demonstrators and an actual promise to commit more such massacres.

    7. The United States did not take the lead role in urging a no-fly zone, and was dragged into this action by its Arab and European allies. President Obama pledges that the US role, mainly disabling anti-aircraft batteries and bombing runways, will last “days, not months” before being turned over to other United Nations allies.

    8. There is no sectarian or ethnic dimension to the Libyan conflict, whereas the US Pentagon conspired with Shiite and Kurdish parties to overthrow the Sunni-dominated Baathist regime in Iraq, setting the stage for a prolonged and bitter civil war.

    9. The US has not rewarded countries such as Norway for entering the conflict as UN allies, but rather a genuine sense of outrage at the brutal crimes against humanity being committed by Qaddafi and his forces impelled the formation of this coalition. The Bush administration’s ‘coalition of the willing’ in contrast was often brought on board by what were essentially bribes[/QUOTE]

    Great discussion by Juan Cole, a mid east expert who was 100% dead right on everything going on in Iraq when the right was making empty arguments and promises to justify that ill conceived war.

  2. #2
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    Translation:

    [QUOTE]I like (D)! I hate (R)! (D) is our President, so I LOVE it!

    Yay (D)!

    Boo (R)![/QUOTE]

    I hate you god damn hypocrites, every one of you.

  3. #3
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;3989879]Translation:



    I hate you god damn hypocrites, every one of you.[/QUOTE]

    Cool story braaaah.

    On the topic of the OT: I agree with a lot of those things (in that I don't think Iraq and this are alike at all) however I still don't think going in was the best decision.

  4. #4
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    Your belief in the authority and reliability of the UN is comical to me.

  5. #5
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    [QUOTE]2. The Libyan people had risen up gainst the Qaddafi regime. He lost controll over a great deal of populated territory before he started firing into peaceful crowds. In Iraq there was no similar popular movement against Saddam
    Hussein.[/QUOTE]

    The problem with this argument is it doesn't change the fact that this is a civil war. Libya has one of the smallest population densities in the world. 88% of the population resides in two cities, one held by Gadhafi and one held by the rebels. When you hear reports of rebels or Gadhafi’s troops on the move unimpeded it has more to do with the fact that there is a huge land mass with no people to impede.

    This is a civil war with Gadhafi likely to kill rebels if he is allowed to take Benghazi and rebels likely to kill those loyal to Gadhafi if they are able to take Tripoli.

    When people talk about Libya they need to release that Libya is 1.75 times the size of Egypt and has 6 million people not 80 million people. There is literally nobody to impede anyone outside the two main population centers.

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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;3989890]The problem with this argument is it doesn't change the fact that this is a civil war. Libya has one of the smallest population densities in the world. 88% of the population resides in two cities, one held by Gadhafi and one held by the rebels. When you hear reports of rebels or Gadhafi’s troops on the move unimpeded it has more to do with the fact that there is a huge land mass with no people to impede.

    This is a civil war with Gadhafi likely to kill rebels if he is allowed to take Benghazi and rebels likely to kill those loyal to Gadhafi if they are able to take Tripoli.

    When people talk about Libya they need to release that Libya is 1.75 times the size of Egypt and has 6 million people not 80 million people. There is literally nobody to impede anyone outside the two main population centers.[/QUOTE]


    Whats your point?
    This thread is about how Libya and Iraq are different. Are you suggesting Iraq was already in a civil war when we invaded?

  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;3989879]Translation:



    I hate you god damn hypocrites, every one of you.[/QUOTE]

    You mad? :confused:

  8. #8
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7;3989933]Whats your point?
    This thread is about how Libya and Iraq are different. Are you suggesting Iraq was already in a civil war when we invaded?[/QUOTE]

    We created it and if we hadn't put up the no fly zone in Libya there wouldn't be a civil war in Libya right now.

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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;3989939]We created it and if we hadn't put up the no fly zone in Libya there wouldn't be a civil war in Libya right now.[/QUOTE]

    Yes , we create dthe civil war in Iraq.
    Your also right that without the no fly zone, there would be no civil war today in Libya, there would be a massacre and we would be blamed for sitting by watching it happen even after the international community was asked to intervene by those being massacred.

  10. #10
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;3989879]Translation:



    I hate you god damn hypocrites, every one of you.[/QUOTE]

    You need to learn the difference between reason and excuse. The world is much more complicated than black and white. When you grow up you might understand that.
    You have really become a lightweight here. I used to respect your posts even though i disagreed with most. Now your posts are simply useless.

  11. #11
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    [QUOTE=Jets Things;3989887]Your belief in the authority and reliability of the UN is comical to me.[/QUOTE]

    So which part of the post do you disagree with. This thread is about the differences between Iraq and Libya. Not about the utility of the UN. Stop changing topics. Its a sad tactic used by people who cant form a counter-argument. Quite pathetic to say the least.

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7;3989948]Yes , we create dthe civil war in Iraq.
    Your also right that without the no fly zone, there would be no civil war today in Libya, there would be a massacre and we would be blamed for sitting by watching it happen even after the international community was asked to intervene by those being massacred.[/QUOTE]

    You assume there would be a massacre. Tell me what happens if and when the Rebels get to Tripoli and enter a city that doesn't support them? What happens if that turns into a massacre?

    There have been literally millions killed in Africa with no intervention by the US or our allies. This is about our ally’s business interests and multilateralism. If it was really about massacres we wouldn't care or need the international community who has done almost nothing about massacres in Africa over the years.

    OIL is what this is about.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 03-29-2011 at 11:47 AM.

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;3989959]You assume there would be a massacre. Tell me what happens if and when the Rebels get to Tripoli and enter a city that doesn't support them? What happens if that turns into a massacre?

    There have been literally millions killed in Africa with no intervention by the US or our allies. This is about our ally’s business interests and multilateralism. If it was really about massacres we wouldn't care or need the international community who has done almost nothing about massacres in Africa over the years.

    OIL is what this is about.[/QUOTE]

    The UN had a window in Libya where swift action could stop a massacre.

    Perhaps they learned from all those African bloodbaths of the past.

    Either way, it seems now as if the criticism is, "well if you do it for the Libyans, you have to do it for everyone", which is of course, ridiculous.

  14. #14
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    [QUOTE=SafetyBlitz;3989971]The UN had a window in Libya where swift action could stop a massacre.

    Perhaps they learned from all those African bloodbaths of the past.

    Either way, it seems now as if the criticism is, "well if you do it for the Libyans, you have to do it for everyone", which is of course, ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

    There's a bloodbath going on in the Ivory Coast right now. Crickets.

  15. #15
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7;3989954]You need to learn the difference between reason and excuse.[/quote]

    What a laugh.

    For you Ken, it's a "reason" if spoken by a (D), and an excuse (or a evil conspiracy and lie) if spoken by an (R).

    [quote]The world is much more complicated than black and white. When you grow up you might understand that.
    You have really become a lightweight here. I used to respect your posts even though i disagreed with most. Now your posts are simply useless.[/QUOTE]

    Coming from you, a guy who does nothing but parrot political propaganda by one side, the very definition of the kind of party-based hypocricy I despise, I take your criticism as a compliment, and wear it proudly.

    Fact is Ken, there has not been a single issue, in all your time here, where you did not side first and foremost with your party, in your case, the (D). A feat equalled in both passion and idiocy with many of our resident (R) loyalists.

    The respect or lack thereof of this cesspool of party-first sheeple hacks is not something to which I aspire, or care. You, and what you stand for, sicken me and offend me to my core, and the best thing that could happen to this country would be a purge of you, and all those like you, who unerringly put PARTY before Policy and before country.

    TLDR: Enjoy your War for UK, French and Italian Oil Interests.
    Last edited by Warfish; 03-29-2011 at 12:09 PM.

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;3989976]There's a bloodbath going on in the Ivory Coast right now. Crickets.[/QUOTE]

    Yes, and what is exactly your position?

    We should never intervene anywhere because we can't stop all of the evil?

    Or maybe, we choose our spots to intervene depending on

    a. the cost to us
    b. the support of our allies
    c. the feasibility of preventing/stopping the massacre (do we need ground troops?)
    d. does the populace of the country call for help?

  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=SafetyBlitz;3989984]Yes, and what is exactly your position?

    We should never intervene anywhere because we can't stop all of the evil?

    Or maybe, we choose our spots to intervene depending on

    a. the cost to us
    b. the support of our allies
    c. the feasibility of preventing/stopping the massacre (do we need ground troops?)
    d. does the populace of the country call for help?[/QUOTE]

    We should intervene when we are attacked or when there is a vital, pressing, immediate US interest that the President can make a compelling case for and the public is willing to support it with their own sons and daughters and funding.

    We shouldn't do it because it's in the Arab League, France or Great Britians business interest.

    My position is Gadahfi is a war criminal yet the international community restored him to good standing. Libya is a country in civil war with no immediate US interest at stake.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 03-29-2011 at 12:35 PM.

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    [IMG]http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu190/PlumberKhan/CryingBabyNaturalHighforSomeMoms.jpg[/IMG]

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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;3989976]There's a bloodbath going on in the Ivory Coast right now. Crickets.[/QUOTE]

    Show me where they have asked for international intervention?

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=kennyo7;3990027]Show me where they have asked for international intervention?[/QUOTE]

    [url]http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-24/ecowas-leaders-want-more-powers-for-un-peacekeeping-force-in-ivory-coast.html[/url]

    [QUOTE]West African leaders have asked the United Nations Security Council to give peacekeepers in Ivory Coast more power to protect civilians from armed attacks and help install Alassane Ouattara as president.

    Presidents and other representatives of the Economic Community of West African States who met today in the Nigerian capital, Abuja, decided “time has come to enforce the decisions” to recognize Ouattara as the winner of a November election and use “legitimate force” to remove incumbent President Laurent Gbagbo from office, according to resolutions handed to reporters.

    The West African country, which is the world’s leading cocoa producer, has faced turmoil since Gbagbo rejected UN- certified election results declaring Ouattara the winner, sparking unrest in which 462 people have been killed since the disputed vote.

    Ecowas wants the UN mission in Ivory Coast to be empowered “to use all necessary means to protect life and property and facilitate the immediate transfer of power” to Ouattara, according to the statement. More “stringent” sanctions should be imposed on Gbagbo and his associates, it said.

    An estimated 300,000 residents of Abidjan, the commercial capital, have fled the city and are seeking shelter in safer neighborhoods, the UN refugee agency, UNHCR, said March 21. [/QUOTE]

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