.Every team is obsessed with work out numbers. No one's gonna get drafted on film alone. MY problem is that his numbers aren't good and his tape ranges from excellent to crap. He's all over the map. If the Jets draft him, I understand why (versatility, coverage, pass rush) I just wish either his tape was more consistent or his workouts were better. One or the other..
1. Every team likes workouts, so surely some team won't blatantly ignore Ayers' pro day (heavier than combine, better 40 than his combine) just to pimp up another player.
2. So you have this consistency question for Ayers, but not for Reed? Simply because his workout numbers are better?
1. Why in the hell would they take a worse player because of a 40 time?If the Jets want a streaky player they can take Allen Bailey with 18 career sacks running the same 4.7 Ayers runs but at 280 not 260. everyone in the NFL is a little faster than they were in college.
2. If everyone in the NFL is a little faster than they were in college...we'll play pretend and say this is true (it even might be)...theeeeeen why wouldn't Ayers get faaaaaaaster in the proooooos where everyone is a little faaaaster than...
And then is literally better in nothing else. He's not even better in every workout number...and two of them (bench and 40) aren't even all that serious to me given the position...Brooks Reed also has more career sacks and better workout numbers than Ayers.
No, I've said a million times that it took me a long time to come around on Ayers. Also, there is more to athleticism to a 40 time and combine numbers...and even then Ayers had a better broad jump, vertical, and the same 20 yard shuttle as Reed in a DISAPPOINTING combine workout.Everyone just assumes Ayers is good cause he's been a name for a while but if 2 prospects are there and all things are equal i'd prefer the faster bigger player.
Are you messing with me or something? Is Ruby right? Is this srs/real life?If they aren't equal, He's got to prove it on production. Kerrigan has pretty good workouts but amazing production 37 sacks. Ayers got amazing highlight and terrible low lights. He's got pretty good not great production. I just don't know what to think about this player. You mention upside, I think that's the problem. If he's really running a 4.7 he doesn't have physical upside.
Last edited by Much ado about Nothing; 04-12-2011 at 02:44 AM.
Another reason I like Reed better than Ayers, I saw Reed up close and he was kicking ass. He beat Sherrod several times. He beat Solder in the game. The dude made plays and I got to see that from a range of 10 yards. Up close his strength and leverage are both impressive.
Ayers was a junior and I just haven't seen enough of him. Ive tried to catch up and on film he's very inconsistent. there's games when he's amazing and other games where he's invisible. He's a streaky player. I love that they play him every where... either side, OLB, ILB, DE... I love his coverage ability. His tackling is sometimes great sometimes bad. If we are projecting this guy as sideline to sideline I wish he had better numbers. Bryan Thomas ran 4.4's, Harris ran 4.5's... Bart Scott didn't but he also didn't get drafted. Players can be good without great numbers but I don't know if they can be first rounders.
Last edited by bitonti; 04-12-2011 at 11:46 AM.
if his film was just excellent to outstanding he'd be a top 12 pick.....MY problem is that his numbers aren't good and his tape ranges from excellent to crap. He's all over the map. If the Jets draft him, I understand why (versatility, coverage, pass rush) I just wish either his tape was more consistent or his workouts were better. One or the other...
what player not taken in the top 12-18 is not streaky??? was kyle wilson consistent @Boise State?If the Jets want a streaky player they can take Allen Bailey with 18 career sacks running the same 4.7 Ayers runs but at 280 not 260. everyone in the NFL is a little faster than they were in college. Brooks Reed also has more career sacks and better workout numbers than Ayers. Everyone just assumes Ayers is good cause he's been a name for a while but if 2 prospects are there and all things are equal i'd prefer the faster bigger player. If they aren't equal, He's got to prove it on production. Kerrigan has pretty good workouts but amazing production 37 sacks. Ayers got amazing highlight and terrible low lights. He's got pretty good not great production. I just don't know what to think about this player. You mention upside, I think that's the problem. If he's really running a 4.7 he doesn't have physical upside.
Last edited by Come Back to NY; 04-12-2011 at 12:15 PM.
it pains me to say this but CBNY i agree with that whole post. Ayers is not always dominant and that's why he'll probably make it to 30. There are several streaky players available in that range the question is which one do they take?
Akeem Ayers: 6'2" height, 254 pounds, 33 inch arms, 18 reps, 4.81 40 yard dash, 1.68 10 yard split, 31" Vert, 9'8" Broad, 4.28 SS, 7.49 3C
Brooks Reed: 6'2" height, 263 pounds, 32.25 inch arms, 30 reps, 4.65 40 yard dash, 1.54 10 yard split, 30.5" vert, 9'5" Broad, 4.28 SS, 7.11 3c
So to break that down...
Ayers and Reed have the same height and short shuttle.
Ayers has longer arms, a better vert and broad.
Reed is heavier, stronger, better 40, better 10 and better 3 cone.
Reeds numbers are similar to Kerrigan, Quinn
Ayers numbers are similar to Ozougwu, Ricky Elmore.
Reed has 15 career sacks, Ayers has 14 career sacks (in less games, altho Reed did miss time with a sprained ankle... so their sack production is basically a wash)
Ayers is better in coverage on tape. More ints, flat out easier to project at linebacker than Reed.
both have alot to like but neither player are close to the Dontay Moch, Von Miller level of workouts.
Last edited by bitonti; 04-12-2011 at 01:00 PM.
Even if we give Ayers the extra tenth from pro day he's still timed slower than Reed, Kerrigan, Houston, Quinn, Smith and many other prospects. And many of those guys chose not to run 4 or 5 weeks after combine cause they did so well the first time.
If we give him his Pro Day numbers, he is at 4.69 vs. Reed's 4.65. That's basically in the same area. If you want to give Reed a leg up because he was more prepared for the Combine, I can't disagree with that.
I'm not even sure how this is a contest....He's got the same shuttle in a disappointing workout...he's got a better broad jump from a disappointing workout...he's got a better vertical from a disappointing workout...and his pro day workout at 259 put a whole 3 pounds difference between him and Reed...When you actually compare these players Ayers blows Reed away in so many more significant categories than it becomes no contest...unless, of course, the 40 and the bench press are real ways to analyze players to you...same for the 10 yard split...DeMarcus Ware's 10 yard was like 1.61 or something, and he ran a 4.5something at 252.
It's unfortunate for Reed that he wasn't even close to the college player Kerrigan was...or even Quinn in his one year of dominance. And while we're on production...neither Quinn, Miller, or Kerrigan will leave college as 250+ pounders with 6 INTs...it's only one stat but it's a standout stat that helps keep Ayers in good company. Reed doesn't have a stat like that.
Last edited by Much ado about Nothing; 04-12-2011 at 02:23 PM.
first.. I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread and really taking in what everyone is saying..
Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I'm reading, it seems like Ayers is better suited for a defense like the Pats, lber's are asked to play in space a lot, and Reed is more suited for the Jets, rush the passer and make plays..
So maybe both will be good but only in certain styles of defense
This is just my suggestion/theory
On to a fact
I went to a predraft party up here in New England last year and the assistant GM, FLOYD REESE, kind of scoffed at 40 times. He basically said at the combine/proday will be the fastest the player will ever run in his professional career.. And the 40 time doesn't hold as much weight as some might think
I would probably prefer
in that order.
Both defenses require their LBs, outside and inside, to have more skills than simply blitzing...blitzing's a basic skill and there isn't a defensive player who doesn't love doing it...the nuances of defense and the game itself come from being able to play the run...drop into zone...play well in space....tackle well...break down plays instantly and react to them...especially nowadays with all these crappy rules to protect the offensive players...both D's use a hybrid/flex front and incorporate 3-4, 4-3, and 46 principals plus whatever else the individual coaches and players come up with/can execute.
Last edited by Much ado about Nothing; 04-12-2011 at 02:18 PM.
Jets meet with Kerrigan wednesday, so maybe they'll walk away enamoured enough to trade up. Him or Cam Jordan i've warmed up to trading for. We're in a win now situation.
I'm willing to scratch picks for impact now talent.
im not gonna lie the worrysome stat for me is the 3-cone. It's a drill designed to evaluate change of direction, quickness and agility. In many ways it's more important than the 40. Ayers is more than 3 tenths slower at a lighter weight.
put it another way JJ Watt weighs 290 ran a 6.88 3-cone at Indy. That's more than a half second faster than Ayers and 40 or 50 pound heavier.
Last edited by Much ado about Nothing; 04-12-2011 at 02:55 PM.
So I was doing more research on Ayers... this guy is just such an interesting prospect... the question really is what is his best position.
there's a comment in his nflds profile "There's a fine line between being a versatile athlete and being ill-fitted for multiple positions" another comment "he's a WILL in a SAMs body" from a Giants fan site... yet another trend seems to be many people projecting him as a 3-4 ILB in the wake of his poor combine 40 yard dash.
in the end we are probably talking about 2 players in Reed and Ayers... neither are true first round grades.
more on Ayers... alot of his draft value depends on where he's being played. 4.7 is ok or even good time for a DE. But there are LBs like Martez Wilson and Von Miller running 4.4's. So i think AA loses value in a 4-3 defense. He's true 2nd rounder for the 4-3 teams.
but in a 3-4 defense, the LBs are converted DE and most have similar numbers to Ayers, so the 40 probably isn't a concern for the Jets. But the 3-cone might be... He's also not great shedding blocks which is a staple of the 3-4 system. Also it should be noted while he is big for a 4-3 LB he's slightly undersized for 3-4 OLB... not a huge margin but he's about 10 pounds light for the ideal 3-4 OLB. CLay Matthews played light but he ran much better.
Last edited by bitonti; 04-12-2011 at 04:57 PM.
Ayers weighed in at 6'3 259 at his pro day...he's not small for the 3-4 OLB position.
I view Ayers as a 3-4 LB...in time he'll flex both inside and out similar to guys like Dansby, Scott, and Adalius Thomas...versatility is the thing with this guy and once you understand that you will understand why many are high on Ayers. You'll have to get over the workout numbers for that to happen...or just look at them in a different way than "so what's he missing here?" The focus you're putting into "what CAN'T he do based on his workout numbers?" could just as easily be focused on "what CAN he do based on what he's actually done" if you actually wanted to bit...
I do think he'd make a pretty good 4-3 LB too...hell I expect in this D his eventual roles would include:
4-3 MLB - This would be more used in nickel and dime packages similar to Pace in Arizona...same for the 4-3 OLB position actually.
Last edited by Much ado about Nothing; 04-12-2011 at 05:14 PM.