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Thread: The Best of Christopher Hitchens

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=cr726;4001935]Your post bringing Obama into this was right on point!!!! :rolleyes:

    What does Obama have to do with this thread?

    PK isn't allowed to question God because you think he is a loyal Obama follower, right on point. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    Dude, you really gotta get some help. Plumber can question God all he wants. He brought up 'filleting' kids as some measure of evil, and I exposed the hypocrisy of that indignation coming from someone who "worships" a man that would like to enable partial birth abortion.

    I have asked Sooth to install a filter on your forum account so all posts appear to you to be written in crayon in large letters, with no words longer than 5 characters. That may enable you to keep up with the conversation..

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=shakin318;4001973]Dude, you really gotta get some help. Plumber can question God all he wants. He brought up 'filleting' kids as some measure of evil, and I exposed the hypocrisy of that indignation coming from someone who "worships" a man that would like to enable partial birth abortion.

    I have asked Sooth to install a filter on your forum account so all posts appear to you to be written in crayon in large letters, with no words longer than 5 characters. That may enable you to keep up with the conversation..[/QUOTE]

    I must of missed PK's posts stating his love and devotion for our current President. If someone disagrees with you about Obama doesn't mean they are automatically happy and in love with Obama? Just because someone doesn't constantly bad mouth our President does not mean there is a love fest for the guy.

    Your hatred is noted when it comes to anything about Obama.

    You can ask Sooth anything you want, it's kind of obvious he has pretty low standards when it comes to middle age men who crave power on message boards. ;)

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=cr726;4002004]I must of missed PK's posts stating his love and devotion for our current President. If someone disagrees with you about Obama doesn't mean they are automatically happy and in love with Obama? Just because someone doesn't constantly bad mouth our President does not mean there is a love fest for the guy.

    Your hatred is noted when it comes to anything about Obama.

    You can ask Sooth anything you want, it's kind of obvious he has pretty low standards when it comes to middle age men who crave power on message boards. ;)[/QUOTE]

    That was an on-topic reply to my immediate previous post, with a nice burn thrown in. See, it's pretty easy with a little effort.

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4001759]So we're all God's children, and if one of his children dares to ask him questions...he'll get pissed and smite me?

    He sounds like an alcoholic stepfather :D[/QUOTE]

    Go back and reread your posts -- I'm pretty sure genuine questions don't usually start with WTF . . .:rolleyes:

  5. #25
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    god = mythology

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4002091]god = mythology[/QUOTE]

    Abortion = murder

    Democrat = thief

    Liberal = hypocrite

    Hey -- this game is fun!!

    [PHP][/PHP]

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=OCCH;4002084]Go back and reread your posts -- I'm pretty sure genuine questions don't usually start with WTF . . .:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    Why? Is god gonna be offended because I use the "f" word? Language is a human cinstruct...I find it hard to believe that some intelligent god-figure would be offended because of the way I used some vowels and consonants together...:rolleyes:

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4002202]Why? Is god gonna be offended because I use the "f" word? Language is a human cinstruct...I find it hard to believe that some intelligent god-figure would be offended because of the way I used some vowels and consonants together...:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    Guess we'll find out, won't we?

    (maybe if you read more than Genesis 19 you'll have a better idea of what it will be like when you stand before Him -- assuming He actually exists . . .;))

  9. #29
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    [QUOTE=OCCH;4002284]Guess we'll find out, won't we?

    (maybe if you read more than Genesis 19 you'll have a better idea of what it will be like when you stand before Him -- assuming He actually exists . . .;))[/QUOTE]

    lolz...

    trust me, brother...I've probably read the bible more than anyone here (cover to cover 6 times to be exact). I've given bible sermons in front of crowds of 60,000+ people. I had to give a sermon based on a few chapters of the Song of Solomon(soft core porn) when I was 14...that pretty much sucked.

    After all that, I arrived to the conclusion that I'll take my chances with the big guy alone and don't need fouled up organized religion to represent me in any way, shape or form. I don't need to go into a puny manmade building every Sunday and "praise" him. He's not that vain.

    Besides. The drunk harlot riding the wild beasts back? Organized religion. The "good book" says that the path to righteousness is small and narrow with few people on it. So, belonging to one of the largest religions in the world......probably not the right path, doncha think?

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4002347]lolz...

    trust me, brother...I've probably read the bible more than anyone here (cover to cover 6 times to be exact). I've given bible sermons in front of crowds of 60,000+ people. I had to give a sermon based on a few chapters of the Song of Solomon(soft core porn) when I was 14...that pretty much sucked.

    After all that, I arrived to the conclusion that I'll take my chances with the big guy alone and don't need fouled up organized religion to represent me in any way, shape or form. I don't need to go into a puny manmade building every Sunday and "praise" him. He's not that vain.

    Besides. The drunk harlot riding the wild beasts back? Organized religion. The "good book" says that the path to righteousness is small and narrow with few people on it. So, belonging to one of the largest religions in the world......probably not the right path, doncha think?[/QUOTE]

    My upbringing led me to absolutely despise [U]organized [/U]religion, yet still keep my faith in my own way, without relying on other humans to interpret things for me. It's a big business run by hypocrites, with a layer of freaky brainwashed radicals laid on top for good measure. So if you feel like trashing organized religion, that works for me. But it seems you like taking your shots at God himself, which doesn't really jibe with what you're saying above.

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=shakin318;4002367]But it seems you like taking your shots at God himself, which doesn't really jibe with what you're saying above.[/QUOTE]

    This is how I see the conversation going:

    "Hey God. Why did you drown all those people in the flood?"

    "lolz. You don't actually think that an all-powerful creator capable of making the ENTIRE universe would have to resort to drowning to cleanse the world of evil, do you? You do realize that the story isn't literal, right?"

    "But why do so many people believe it's literal?"

    "Ummm..we are talking about the same group of people where only 3.6% of them are capable of programming the clocks on their DVD players."

    "Gotcha"


    :P;):D

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4002347]lolz...

    trust me, brother...I've probably read the bible more than anyone here (cover to cover 6 times to be exact). I've given bible sermons in front of crowds of 60,000+ people. I had to give a sermon based on a few chapters of the Song of Solomon(soft core porn) when I was 14...that pretty much sucked.

    After all that, I arrived to the conclusion that I'll take my chances with the big guy alone and don't need fouled up organized religion to represent me in any way, shape or form. I don't need to go into a puny manmade building every Sunday and "praise" him. He's not that vain.

    Besides. The drunk harlot riding the wild beasts back? Organized religion. The "good book" says that the path to righteousness is small and narrow with few people on it. So, belonging to one of the largest religions in the world......probably not the right path, doncha think?[/QUOTE]

    If you don't mind, I truly am curious if there was a specific moment you "turned" from the Bible, or if it never really meant anything more to you than a bunch of nonsensical stories.

    I truly assumed you were atheistic, but now it appears you believe in A god, just not the organized one most people throw out there, right? I know it's none of my business -- I am just truly intrigued to see this side of you.

    Personally, I don't see how you could know God WITHOUT the Bible, which is why I believe EVERYTHING in it (I've also read it multiple times). Does this "force" me to sometimes accept things I don't understand? Yes. But I try to question him the way Habakkuk did -- not in an accusatory way, but in a way where I truly want an answer. Sometimes I get one, sometimes I don't. But then I'm reminded He's God and I am not, so I can't expect to understand everything He does/doesn't do.

    Sorry for rambling -- I just really enjoy conversations like this (even if they have to be censored sometimes!:D) I agree the world distorts God -- there are too many heresies out there to count. But once we start throwing the Bible out . . . I honestly don't see what else we have . . .

    Not expecting a response -- just appreciate you tolerating me to this point . . .

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=OCCH;4002402]If you don't mind, I truly am curious if there was a specific moment you "turned" from the Bible[/QUOTE]

    Never "turned" from it...just gained a realization that it wasn't meant to be interpreted literally. And that happened because my parents put the bible on the same shelf as the encyclopedias. :D

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=shakin318;4002367]My upbringing led me to absolutely despise [U]organized [/U]religion, yet still keep my faith in my own way, without relying on other humans to interpret things for me. It's a big business run by hypocrites, with a layer of freaky brainwashed radicals laid on top for good measure. So if you feel like trashing organized religion, that works for me. But it seems you like taking your shots at God himself, which doesn't really jibe with what you're saying above.[/QUOTE]

    That's what makes Hitchens so interesting though.

    I think more like you than him, I don't subscribe to an organized religion for the same reasons you don't like 'em, but I never used to care about other's religious practices and how they choose believe.

    But it is interesting for someone to argue against both religion and god.

    He makes some excellent points.

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=SafetyBlitz;4003337]That's what makes Hitchens so interesting though.

    I think more like you than him, I don't subscribe to an organized religion for the same reasons you don't like 'em, but I never used to care about other's religious practices and how they choose believe.

    But it is interesting for someone to argue against both religion and god.

    He makes some excellent points.[/QUOTE]

    Wise man said:

    Religion is like a penis. Just because you have one, doesn't mean that I want to see it or have it shoved down my throat.

    :P

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=OCCH;4002402]Personally, I don't see how you could know God WITHOUT the Bible, which is why I believe EVERYTHING in it (I've also read it multiple times). .[/QUOTE]

    Can you set the clock on your VCR/DVD player?

    So the Bible as edited by Emperor Constantine (left out what didn't serve his purposes), translated by King James or others is the be all end all of knowing God? So where does that leave the unindoctrinated? What makes your version of the Bible the right one?

  17. #37
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    To add to my previous post:

    [QUOTE]
    On May 12, 1797 while living in Paris, France Tom Paine wrote the following letter to a Christian friend who was trying to convert Paine to Christianity. Paine's response fits perfectly with this page regarding the origins of the Bible.

    "In your letter of the twentieth of March, you give me several quotations from the Bible, which you call the Word of God, to show me that my opinions on religion are wrong, and I could give you as many, from the same book to show that yours are not right; consequently, then, the Bible decides nothing, because it decides any way, and every way, one chooses to make it.

    "But by what authority do you call the Bible the Word of God? for this is the first point to be settled. It is not your calling it so that makes it so, any more than the Mahometans calling the Koran the Word of God makes the Koran to be so. The Popish Councils of Nice and Laodicea, about 350 years after the time the person called Jesus Christ is said to have lived, voted the books that now compose what is called the New Testament to be the Word of God. This was done by [I]yeas[/I] and [I]nays,[/I] as we now vote a law.

    "The Pharisees of the second temple, after the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon, did the same by the books that now compose the Old Testament, and this is all the authority there is, which to me is no authority at all. I am as capable of judging for myself as they were, and I think more so, because, as they made a living by their religion, they had a self-interest in the vote they gave.

    "You may have an opinion that a man is inspired, but you cannot prove it, nor can you have any proof of it yourself, because you cannot see into his mind in order to know how he comes by his thoughts; and the same is the case with the word [I]revelation.[/I] There can be no evidence of such a thing, for you can no more prove revelation than you can prove what another man dreams of, neither can he prove it himself.

    "It is often said in the Bible that God spake unto Moses, but how do you know that God spake unto Moses? Because, you will say, the Bible says so. The Koran says, that God spake unto Mahomet, do you believe that too? No.

    "Why not? Because, you will say, you do not believe it; and so because you [I]do,[/I] and because you [I]don't[/I] is all the reason you can give for believing or disbelieving except that you will say that Mahomet was an impostor. And how do you know Moses was not an impostor?

    "For my own part, I believe that all are impostors who pretend to hold verbal communication with the Deity. It is the way by which the world has been imposed upon; but if you think otherwise you have the same right to your opinion that I have to mine, and must answer for it in the same manner. But all this does not settle the point, whether the Bible be the Word of God, or not. It is therefore necessary to go a step further. The case then is: -

    "You form your opinion of God from the account given of Him in the Bible; and I form my opinion of the Bible from the wisdom and goodness of God manifested in the structure of the universe, and in all works of creation. The result in these two cases will be, that you, by taking the Bible for your standard, will have a bad opinion of God; and I, by taking God for my standard, shall have a bad opinion of the Bible.

    "The Bible represents God to be a changeable, passionate, vindictive being; making a world and then drowning it, afterwards repenting of what he had done, and promising not to do so again. Setting one nation to cut the throats of another, and stopping the course of the sun till the butchery should be done. But the works of God in the creation preach to us another doctrine. In that vast volume we see nothing to give us the idea of a changeable, passionate, vindictive God; everything we there behold impresses us with a contrary idea - that of unchangeableness and of eternal order, harmony, and goodness.

    "The sun and the seasons return at their appointed time, and everything in the creation claims that God is unchangeable. Now, which am I to believe, a book that any impostor might make and call the Word of God, or the creation itself which none but an Almighty Power could make? For the Bible says one thing, and the creation says the contrary. The Bible represents God with all the passions of a mortal, and the creation proclaims him with all the attributes of a God.

    "It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man. That bloodthirsty man, called the prophet Samuel, makes God to say, (I Sam. xv. 3) `Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and [I]spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.'[/I]

    "That Samuel or some other impostor might say this, is what, at this distance of time, can neither be proved nor disproved, but in my opinion it is blasphemy to say, or to believe, that God said it. All our ideas of the justice and goodness of God revolt at the impious cruelty of the Bible. It is not a God, just and good, but a devil, under the name of God, that the Bible describes.

    "What makes this pretended order to destroy the Amalekites appear the worse, is the reason given for it. The Amalekites, four hundred years before, according to the account in Exodus xvii. (but which has the appearance of fable from the magical account it gives of Moses holding up his hands), had opposed the Israelites coming into their country, and this the Amalekites had a right to do, because the Israelites were the invaders, as the Spaniards were the invaders of Mexico. This opposition by the Amalekites, [I]at that time,[/I] is given as a reason, that the men, women, infants and sucklings, sheep and oxen, camels and asses, that were born four hundred years afterward, should be put to death; and to complete the horror, Samuel hewed Agag, the chief of the Amalekites, in pieces, as you would hew a stick of wood. I will bestow a few observations on this case.

    "In the first place, nobody knows who the author, or writer, of the book of Samuel was, and, therefore, the fact itself has no other proof than anonymous or hearsay evidence, which is no evidence at all. In the second place, this anonymous book says, that this slaughter was done by the [I]express command of God:[/I] but all our ideas of the justice and goodness of God give the lie to the book, and as I never will believe any book that ascribes cruelty and injustice to God, I therefore reject the Bible as unworthy of credit.

    "As I have now given you my reasons for believing that the Bible is not the Word of God, that it is a falsehood, I have a right to ask you your reasons for believing the contrary; but I know you can give me none, except that [I]you were educated to believe the Bible;[/I] and as the Turks give the same reason for believing the Koran, it is evident that education makes all the difference, and that reason and truth have nothing to do in the case.

    "You believe in the Bible from the accident of birth, and the Turks believe in the Koran from the same accident, and each calls the other [I]infidel.[/I] But leaving the prejudice of education out of the case, the unprejudiced truth is, that all are infidels who believe falsely of God, whether they draw their creed from the Bible, or from the Koran, from the Old Testament, or from the New.

    "When you have examined the Bible with the attention that I have done (for I do not think you know much about it), and permit yourself to have just ideas of God, you will most probably believe as I do. But I wish you to know that this answer to your letter is not written for the purpose of changing your opinion. It is written to satisfy you, and some other friends whom I esteem, that my disbelief of the Bible is founded on a pure and religious belief in God; for in my opinion the Bible is a gross libel against the justice and goodness of God, in almost every part of it."
    [/QUOTE]

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=Trades;4003447]To add to my previous post:[/QUOTE]

    I was told by someone here not that long ago that Thomas Paine was a quack and nobody liked him anyways....:P

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4003456]I was told by someone here not that long ago that Thomas Paine was a quack and nobody liked him anyways....:P[/QUOTE]

    LOL, nice. I just think this is a well written piece by him and sums up my thoughts on the Bible rather well.

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=Green Jets & Ham;4003860]Hitchens is brilliant and a wonderful conversationalist and debater. I thoroughly enjoyed his many reglious debates with Dinesh D'Souza and found him to be DD's most formidable opposition, and I could see where a mutual respect had developed between these two men. However from my POV D'Souza often bested Hitchens (no easy task) because Hitchens was at a disadvantage.

    Intellectually both men are on fairly equal footing, but Hitchens has no more than a basic understanding of Christian apologetics whereas DD is intellectually superior in that respect, he is well versed in Christian apologetics from Aquinas to John Locke to CS Lewis and everything before, between or since.

    Its not that DD is any smarter than Hitchens. I Just don't think these things ever mattered much to Hitchens and therefore his study of the topic seems fairly limited, and that puts Dinesh at a clear advantage in my view.

    For example Hitchens is unaware of the symbolism put forth in the story of Abraham and Isaac from the Christian perspective, therefore the beauty (yes, beauty) of this story is lost on Hitchens.

    Its not that he dismisses the symbolism, he just doesn't know it.

    I cannot speak from the Jewish perspective, but from the Christian perspective this story is a metaphor for the Crucifixion and the supreme sacrifice God made on our behalf.

    The whole point of this story from the Christian perspective (which is all I am qualified to speak of), as is the case with so many stories in the OT including the Passover, is that God pulls mankind (represented by Isaac) off the alter at the last second and sacrifices HIS OWN SON in our place.

    When God tells Abraham to spare his son and place a Ram (male lamb) on the alter instead, this is God saying I have found a substitute for your son (yours, mine, everyones), for I will sacrifice the Ram in his place.

    Combine that with the sotry of the Passover, when God tells the children of Israel to slay a lamb, pure and without spot or wrinkle, and place its blood on your doorpost, and when I see the blood I'll passover you when I smite the land of Egypt. In this story Egypt typifies mankind, while the lamb typifies Jesus.

    This is why John the Baptist, when he first encounters Jesus by the river Jordan where he came to be baptized, points at Jesus and tells his followers ... "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"

    John knew the Torah like the back of his hand, spent his whole life studying the scriptures, so he knew what it meant to call Jesus "Gods lamb" even if others did not, he was Prophesying that Jesus would be sacrificed for mankind just as God substitited the Ram for Isaac or Passed over Israel when he saw the blood of the slain lamb on their doorpost.

    So when you think about it in that context the story of Abraham and Isaac is a beautiful one. Of course its horrorfying when Abraham is asked to sacrifice his son and nearly does so, but that part is supposed to be horrorfying so you can understand the depth of Gods sacrifice for us, afterall he did to HIS OWN SON what he asked Abraham to do to his, only GODS SON did not get a reprieve, there was no alternative for him, HE WAS THE ALTERNATIVE (for you and me)

    Again and I feel like I always have to say this, but you don't have to believe any of this, thats entirely up to you, I'm just giving you the Christian perspective and explaining why this story (Abraham/Isaac), while horrorfying in one respect as it should be (so we can feel the depth of Gods sacrifice), is actually a beautiful story and not an ugly one as Hitchens suggests.[/QUOTE]

    Oh dear. Anacronistic readings of the OT, a god who needs to send messengers on his behalf, a god who is "sacrificed" yet doesn't die at all since he's immortal and I would assume knows it. This is indeed very Christo-centric, which was exactly what the gospel writers were all about... the rewriting and reinterpreting of all history through the lense of their belief system. It worked for primitive people in a time when myth and history were virtually indistinguishable. And of course there was a tremendous propagandistic need for the gospel writers to "prove" that Jesus was prefigured. Otherwise the whole exercise is in deep trouble. If the metaphor of crucifixion and resurrection works for you in some capacity, go for it. It's one of many many metaphors available from the ancient world.
    Last edited by long island leprechaun; 04-19-2011 at 07:32 AM.

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