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Thread: CNN: 45% don't owe U.S. income tax

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4003924]here's the problem with a flat tax

    it takes away the gov't tool to make people act a certain way

    for example income that goes into retirement accounts are tax excempt

    that's the gov't's way of incentivizing people to save for their own retirements. We all agree that's a good thing. (Conservatives and Liberals can agree that it's better for people to fund their own retirement than the gov't to do it in the form of SS).

    there are other aspects of the tax code that move in this manner. writeoffs for college tuition. Writeoffs for taking care of your kids. Write offs for mortgage interest. For whatever reason the gov't wants these things to happen. the gov't wants people to own homes, go to college and care for their kids.

    But make it all flat tax, these instruments go away. that's why it will never be a straight flat tax. It takes the power of incentive away from congress. Congress doesn't make votes that result in it getting less power.

    I guess Russia can have a flat tax cause over there you do what Putin says or you end up in the gulag.[/QUOTE]

    What are you not getting about the FairTax? Seriously, I want to help you understand. The FairTax and the flat tax are two completely different things.

  2. #22
    [QUOTE=Warfish;4004210]
    Re-read that phrase however many times it takes to get what it actually means, and what your support of it says about your beliefs.
    [/QUOTE]

    you should read it again. No where did I profess support. I just described something that exists. and why it's unlikely to go away. the gov't is not in the business of liquidating it's own power. you guys can talk about fairtax, flattax, goodtax, notax whatever it's not realistic.

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=SafetyBlitz;4004178]Is this indicative of a disappearing middle class?

    I'm quite certain there has been articles posted this year on this forum showing the gap between the rich and poor at its largest since the '20s.[/QUOTE]

    Yes.

    The wealth of the top 400 people in the U.S. is equal to the wealth of the bottom 150 million people. The numbers are shocking, and the statistics show a huge redistribution of wealth over the past few decades in the exact opposite direction often argued by conservatives.

    The middle class is dying. It's basically dead already.

  4. #24
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4003925]how about 50%? that's the other part of the flat tax argument i don't get... people want a flat tax but they want it to be very very small. What if there was a flat tax and it was 50%?? we'd be pining for the days of the progressive income tax.[/QUOTE]

    Ok 25%. 50% is a little overkill Bit.

  5. #25
    [QUOTE=parafly;4004225]Yes.

    The wealth of the top 400 people in the U.S. is equal to the wealth of the bottom 150 million people. The numbers are shocking, and the statistics show a huge redistribution of wealth over the past few decades in the exact opposite direction often argued by conservatives.

    The middle class is dying. It's basically dead already.[/QUOTE]

    Mostly because of inflation caused by government manipulation of behavior and the Fed.

    The top getting richer is no indication that it came at the expense of anyone. There have been many new millionaires produced in the last several decades and many millionaires wiped out in the last several decades.

    Statistics only show data. An opinion that uses data is still an opinion.

  6. #26
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4003976]Warfish you think you'd be happy in a Mad Max thunderdome world with no rules, no taxes and no gov't... but the reality is that sucks. People need a reason to save for their retirement. Law and order are very underrated. Cause we don't just shoot em in the head when they get old. Someone has to take care of these people if they don't take care of themselves.




    I didn't say gov't power is a good thing. i said that they already have this power and aren't giving it up. I said people saving for retirement is a good thing.[/QUOTE]

    Ditto on that Bit. Saving is good!

  7. #27
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4004224]you should read it again. No where did I profess support.[/quote]

    I'm not going to play that game Bit.:rolleyes:

    [QUOTE]the gov't is not in the business of liquidating it's own power.[/QUOTE]

    No, the poeple are supposed to be there to do that.

    Shame, most of them are spineless party-hack quislings, happy to bathe in State Tyrany.

    [quote]you guys can talk about fairtax, flattax, goodtax, notax whatever it's not realistic.[/QUOTE]

    Sure it is, if the people had a spine and cared.

    It's very very sad how few do, and how few actually care about their own freedom and liberty these days.

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4004236]Mostly because of inflation caused by government manipulation of behavior and the Fed.

    The top getting richer is no indication that it came at the expense of anyone. There have been many new millionaires produced in the last several decades and many millionaires wiped out in the last several decades.

    Statistics only show data. An opinion that uses data is still an opinion.[/QUOTE]

    I would argue that a widening gap between rich and poor (statistical fact) is evidence of the rich getting richer at the expense of everyone else.

    Our society is quickly turning into the Haves and the Have Nots. Regardless of the reason, it's not a fallacy.

  9. #29
    [QUOTE=parafly;4004243]Regardless of the reason[/QUOTE]

    Shame one of teh major reasons is the abandonment of personal responsabillity, and the ongoign embrace of Social Welfare Statism, eh?

    No worries, we'll just tax the workers more, and handout more to the 45% already paying nothing in, and hence "wealth" will be more equal, and thats what the left cares about, State Forced Fiscal Equallity, Equallity of Outcomes.

    Freedom and effort and responsabillity, those are silly outdated concepts, aren't they Comrade? Now, where is my Govt. Cheese!

  10. #30
    [QUOTE=parafly;4004225]The middle class is dying. It's basically dead already.[/QUOTE]

    I'm guessing you support people who are trying to kill it.

    Congratulations.

  11. #31
    [QUOTE=parafly;4004243]I would argue that a widening gap between rich and poor (statistical fact) [B]is evidence of the rich getting richer at the expense of everyone else.[/B]

    Our society is quickly turning into the Haves and the Have Nots. [B]Regardless of the reason,[/B] it's not a fallacy.[/QUOTE]

    Which is it.

    Government spending and scope has gone through the roof while the rich have gotten richer? Big government and big government spending is causing the destruction of the middle class and creating a new class of millionares at the same time.

    What should we do about it?

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4004278]Which is it.

    Government spending and scope has gone through the roof while the rich have gotten richer? Big government and big government spending is causing the destruction of the middle class and creating a new class of millionares at the same time.

    What should we do about it?[/QUOTE]

    I'm far from an economic expert. Can you please explain how increased government spending, scope, inflation, etc. are the primary cause of a shrinking middle class? I'm not seeing the connection.

    My thought is that the significant reduction of industrial and blue collar jobs over the past couple of decades is the primary cause. Corporate outsourcing combined with technological advances have eliminated a huge number of jobs that kept the middle class strong in the last century.

    It may not be possible to bring these jobs back, but I think we could start with reducing or eliminating all of the corporate incentives for outsourcing. The government should offer incentives for employing Americans as opposed to the current incentives for taking business to other countries.

  13. #33
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    I also want to add that stagnant wages in middle class jobs are a big factor as well.

    [IMG]http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2011/02/16/news/economy/middle_class/chart_rise_of_super_rich.top.gif[/IMG]

    [QUOTE]Incomes for 90% of Americans have been stuck in neutral, and it's not just because of the Great Recession. Middle-class incomes have been stagnant for at least a generation, while the wealthiest tier has surged ahead at lighting speed.

    In 1988, the income of an average American taxpayer was $33,400, adjusted for inflation. Fast forward 20 years, and not much had changed: The average income was still just $33,000 in 2008, according to IRS data.

    Meanwhile, the richest 1% of Americans -- those making $380,000 or more -- have seen their incomes grow 33% over the last 20 years, leaving average Americans in the dust.[/QUOTE]

    [URL="http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/16/news/economy/middle_class/index.htm"]http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/16/news/economy/middle_class/index.htm[/URL]

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4004243]I would argue that a widening gap between rich and poor (statistical fact) is evidence of the rich getting richer at the expense of everyone else.

    Our society is quickly turning into the Haves and the Have Nots. Regardless of the reason, it's not a fallacy.[/QUOTE]

    better yet, society is quickly turning into the do's and the do nots....

    those that do work 40/50/60 hours 6/7 days a week to take care of themselves and their families versus those that don't want to work or don't want to prioritize their budgets because its much easier to get free stuff from the gov't rather than pay for it themselves...free health care versus paying for your own insurance, continued unemployment benefits because they'll pay more then the job that's available, etc....

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY;4004329]better yet, society is quickly turning into the do's and the do nots....

    those that do work 40/50/60 hours 6/7 days a week to take care of themselves and their families versus those that don't want to work or don't want to prioritize their budgets because its much easier to get free stuff from the gov't rather than pay for it themselves...free health care versus paying for your own insurance, continued unemployment benefits because they'll pay more then the job that's available, etc....[/QUOTE]

    I agree, but how much of a factor are these people you reference? It's a fact that the people who work hard and earn an honest living FAR outnumber those who are leaching off the government. While it is a factor, the issue of a disappearing middle class goes much further than welfare recipients.

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4004342]I agree, but how much of a factor are these people you reference? It's a fact that the people who work hard and earn an honest living FAR outnumber those who are leaching off the government. While it is a factor, the issue of a disappearing middle class goes much further than welfare recipients.[/QUOTE]

    the more handouts the gov't gives the more people are looking for free stuff....any coincidence the day workers who stand on street corners 7 days a week willing to do any sort of work in any type of weather to better themselves and put some cash in their pocket are those unable to leach off the gov't???

    further- i'd say the overall strain of the lifetime welfare recipients of medicaid, section 8 payments, welfare, etc far outstrips society versus the evil rich people who, in one way or another, employ those who wish to work....

    again- getting back to the thread- i've got no problem increasing taxes just as long as, obama claims- its "shared sacrifice"....but obama won't tax the 45% of the people who pay no federal income tax because they vote for him....

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=Come Back to NY;4004347]the more handouts the gov't gives the more people are looking for free stuff....any coincidence the day workers who stand on street corners 7 days a week willing to do any sort of work in any type of weather to better themselves and put some cash in their pocket are those unable to leach off the gov't???

    further- i'd say the overall strain of the lifetime welfare recipients of medicaid, section 8 payments, welfare, etc far outstrips society versus the evil rich people who, in one way or another, employ those who wish to work....

    again- getting back to the thread- i've got no problem increasing taxes just as long as, obama claims- its "shared sacrifice"....but obama won't tax the 45% of the people who pay no federal income tax because they vote for him....[/QUOTE]

    A lot of generalizations here, which I'm not sure really address the issue.

    But on the last point, let's be fair. The 45% weren't paying any taxes well before Obama came into office, per the CBO data...

  18. #38
    [QUOTE=parafly;4004311]I'm far from an economic expert. Can you please explain how increased government spending, scope, inflation, etc. are the primary cause of a shrinking middle class? I'm not seeing the connection.

    My thought is that the significant reduction of industrial and blue collar jobs over the past couple of decades is the primary cause. Corporate outsourcing combined with technological advances have eliminated a huge number of jobs that kept the middle class strong in the last century.

    It may not be possible to bring these jobs back, but I think we could start with reducing or eliminating all of the corporate incentives for outsourcing. The government should offer incentives for employing Americans as opposed to the current incentives for taking business to other countries.[/QUOTE]

    I agree Taxes and regulation are a big incentive to outsource. We should reduce both dramatically.

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4004381]I agree Taxes and regulation are a big incentive to outsource. We should reduce both dramatically.[/QUOTE]

    Not to mention low wages, no benefits, no health care, no environmental standards, low capital costs, and no tariffs....

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4003955]Holy hell Comrade Bit-Stalin[/QUOTE]

    [QUOTE=Warfish]Freedom and effort and responsabillity, those are silly outdated concepts, aren't they Comrade? Now, where is my Govt. Cheese![/QUOTE]



    [QUOTE=Warfish][B]Lol, nope, no Straw Men round here, amirite?[/B][/QUOTE]


    LOL

    Nope. None. ;)

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