Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 69

Thread: What Govt. Spending are Democrats/Liberals Supporting of Cutting?

  1. #41
    [QUOTE=Jetdawgg;4007164]Fish, the problem is that the makers of the jet continue to move the goal posts on the costs of the jet.

    Even in this story, the price scales north. Either they severely underestimated the costs or they are dragging their feet in constructing it at a time when we do need to have fixed costs[/QUOTE]

    And the same can't be said of education and other "entitlements"?

  2. #42
    [QUOTE=OCCH;4007527]And the same can't be said of education and other "entitlements"?[/QUOTE]

    say what ya will about education or welfare. That stuff gets used. every dollar goes somewhere. it might not work or be effective but it gets used.

    the wars we built the f-35 for do not exist anymore. We are still using cold war tactics but there is no USSR out there who will put out a better fighter that the f35 is needed. our enemies live in caves.

    The f15, f16, f18 still kick tons of ass. we dont even use the f22. the stealth bomber is a badass. We dont need any more bad ass jet fighters... unless they are space fighters to take out satellites or some cutting edge thing.

    Heck I think the apache and A-10, Harrier combo is a badass as well. WE don't really need f35.

  3. #43
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4007576]say what ya will about education or welfare. That stuff gets used. every dollar goes somewhere. it might not work or be effective but it gets used.

    the wars we built the f-35 for do not exist anymore. We are still using cold war tactics but there is no USSR out there who will put out a better fighter that the f35 is needed. our enemies live in caves.

    The f15, f16, f18 still kick tons of ass. we dont even use the f22. the stealth bomber is a badass. We dont need any more bad ass jet fighters... unless they are space fighters to take out satellites or some cutting edge thing.

    Heck I think the apache and A-10, Harrier combo is a badass as well. WE don't really need f35.[/QUOTE]

    I agree the military needs to be run much more efficiently for us to be fiscally responsible. But which is truly bigger "waste" -- throwing money at weapons that likely won't be used, or throwing it at kids getting dumber every day? It would be like making weapons that don't even work.

    I'm an educator, so I believe in the power of education. But it's a SIN how much money is wasted, all in the name of the latest mandate. We should be able to do SO much more with SO much less -- throwing more money at it is NOT the answer . . .

  4. #44
    Good thread here. A lot of great answers and ideas. Shows that this government really needs to listen to the people who have knowledge

  5. #45
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,955
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4007576]say what ya will about education or welfare. That stuff gets used. every dollar goes somewhere. it might not work or be effective but it gets used.

    the wars we built the f-35 for do not exist anymore. We are still using cold war tactics but there is no USSR out there who will put out a better fighter that the f35 is needed. our enemies live in caves.

    The f15, f16, f18 still kick tons of ass. we dont even use the f22. the stealth bomber is a badass. We dont need any more bad ass jet fighters... unless they are space fighters to take out satellites or some cutting edge thing.

    Heck I think the apache and A-10, Harrier combo is a badass as well. WE don't really need f35.[/QUOTE]

    You'd have made an Excellent British Politician post-WWI.

    The War to End all Wars. There will never be another War, not after this one. Right?

    What do you think, Bit, the odds are that in the 4000 odd years of War-filled human history, WE managed to come round right at the time International Conflict has been "solved" and War no longer a possabillity? Man, we must be hella lucky. We live in the Era of Peace in Our Time.

    You'd almost think we're not in three Wars right now, wouldnt'cha?

  6. #46
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4007576]say what ya will about education or welfare. That stuff gets used. every dollar goes somewhere. it might not work or be effective but it gets used.

    the wars we built the f-35 for do not exist anymore. We are still using cold war tactics but there is no USSR out there who will put out a better fighter that the f35 is needed. our enemies live in caves.

    The f15, f16, f18 still kick tons of ass. we dont even use the f22. the stealth bomber is a badass. We dont need any more bad ass jet fighters... unless they are space fighters to take out satellites or some cutting edge thing.

    Heck I think the apache and A-10, Harrier combo is a badass as well. WE don't really need f35.[/QUOTE]

    The B17 and B29 were great once. So were the P51, the F86 and the F4 Phantom. Times change. The abilities of our enemies change.
    Apache, A10 and Harrier are nice. Not against real fighter aircraft though. I still like the Cobra in an anti personnel role more than Apache.
    The Chinese are making a lot of noise. The Russians are increasing their budget for military hardware. We need to stay cutting edge but do so with a business like approach. Strong controls. Military people are not business oriented. Most Senators and Congressmen have little idea about proper business and management techniques. Materiel needs to be developed and done so in a tightly controlled budget environment.

  7. #47
    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;4007922]The B17 and B29 were great once. So were the P51, the F86 and the F4 Phantom. Times change. The abilities of our enemies change.
    Apache, A10 and Harrier are nice. Not against real fighter aircraft though. I still like the Cobra in an anti personnel role more than Apache.
    The Chinese are making a lot of noise. The Russians are increasing their budget for military hardware. We need to stay cutting edge but do so with a business like approach. Strong controls. Military people are not business oriented. Most Senators and Congressmen have little idea about proper business and management techniques. Materiel needs to be developed and done so in a tightly controlled budget environment.[/QUOTE]

    Don't leave out the administration here pd. We went from having folks in the WH who had no business experience to now we have an individual in charge whose company made billions and paid no taxes:huh:

  8. #48
    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;4007922]
    Apache, A10 and Harrier are nice. Not against real fighter aircraft though..[/QUOTE]

    who are flying these fighters? GI Joe? the Transformers?

    The apache is not only nice it's a modern marvel and far more useful against cave dwellers than an f35.

    you guys bring up the Chinese and Russians... it's not gonna happen. Yes Warfish globalization is here and the Chinese can't conquer us, who is gonna buy all their crap? Why bother conquering a nation when you can just buy all it's debt?

    there is no more first world vs first world wars. there are first world vs third world conflicts but the big wars are over. It's bad for business.

  9. #49
    The NWO (Elite) vs everyone else

  10. #50
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4008174]who are flying these fighters? GI Joe? the Transformers?

    The apache is not only nice it's a modern marvel and far more useful against cave dwellers than an f35.

    you guys bring up the Chinese and Russians... it's not gonna happen. Yes Warfish globalization is here and the Chinese can't conquer us, who is gonna buy all their crap? Why bother conquering a nation when you can just buy all it's debt?

    there is no more first world vs first world wars. there are first world vs third world conflicts but the big wars are over. It's bad for business.[/QUOTE]


    Here is my background and why I rate our weapons systems. I was once a Fire Control Officer. That's a guy who identifies targets and calls in various attack systems - artillery of various types, gunships, tactical air. I did it in combat. You use various weapons based on capability and seriousness of threat. The Apache is nice as I said. It was developed and, in fact, is most effective against armor (tanks) and other hard targets (using a 30mm cannon and Hellfire missiles). It is essentially overkill against light targets. It is effective in a armor environment but frankly terribly slow. The Cobra (still in use) has a better anti personnel weapons package and more weapons flexibility and is clearly faster. It is not as survivable, however.
    As far as A10 and the Harrier, a similar concept. Ground support. Our pilots are good and well trained. But they are not all things to all people. The planes are not going to deal with MIGs and other modern variants. I'm not going to be the guy who thinks only "our people" are any good. Recognize the enemy'ds strengths and capabilities.
    I do not know what type wars the future may bring. But I clearly want our men to be prepared with the best possible, not 30+ year old equipment.

  11. #51
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    22,759
    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;4008264] Recognize the enemy'ds strengths and capabilities.[/QUOTE]

    When are we going to start doing that?

    Bring it on. Cakewalk. 6 days, 6 months. Pay for itself.

    Wish you were around to warn those boneheads to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of your enemy. You know, kinda like how they do for us?

  12. #52
    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;4008264]
    I do not know what type wars the future may bring. But I clearly want our men to be prepared with the best possible, not 30+ year old equipment.[/QUOTE]

    I agree with most of what you post, and can appreciate your viewpoint but i've yet to see a compelling argument why the f15/f16/f18 have to be replaced by the f22/f35. just cause it's 30 years old? what are the shortcomings of the current fighters? what do the new 5th generation fighters bring? Who are building their own 5th generations?

    [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_jet_fighter[/url]

    maybe im oversimplifying but seems to me the only one out there is the f22 and it has no enemies.

  13. #53
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,955
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4008298]I agree with most of what you post, and can appreciate your viewpoint but i've yet to see a compelling argument why the f15/f16/f18 have to be replaced by the f22/f35.[/quote]

    And where did you expect to hear such a thing? I'm curious what circles you run in that discussion of millitary hardware by the professionals would be a part....for example, do you read internal millitary memo's in the Air Force or Navy? Most of the questions you ask could be answered.....if any of us were a prefessional airman in the business, as it were. I don't recall having any of those (marines yes, fighter pilots active today, or even millitary air engineer types, not so much).

    As such, I doubt you or I would know (or understand the details) of the why, tbh.

    [QUOTE]maybe im oversimplifying[/QUOTE]

    No maybe about it. We're all ignorant layman tbh, on this topic. What we would need is either a top rank Air Force/Navy brass type, or maybe a Lookheed -Martin Top-line Engineer to actually get an understanding, pro or con.

    Best we can do is is say "being ultra-modern and #1 is good, even if expesive as hell" or "We can be #2, or #3 or worse, and thats ok, it's too expensive to stay #1". Either way, it's probably an uninformed view regardless.

  14. #54
    [QUOTE=Warfish;4008303]
    No maybe about it. We're all ignorant layman tbh, on this topic. .[/QUOTE]

    we can bring in a Lockheed engineer and he can tell us why the f35 is better than the f15 but he can't tell us when we'd use the damn thing.

    fact: the f22 is real, out there and hasn't been used in Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya. when are we planning to use this thing? when the aliens come down like independence day?

    the army is all pack-bots and drones these days it's not the f35 dogfighting

  15. #55
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4008323]when are we planning to use this thing?[/QUOTE]

    Teh Zombies or Teh Machinez.

    Whichever happens first.

  16. #56
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,955
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4008323]we can bring in a Lockheed engineer and he can tell us why the f35 is better than the f15 but he can't tell us when we'd use the damn thing.[/quote]

    No, thats the job of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the President. It could be commented on in an educated manner by National security/Millitaty Planning experts.

    Doubt we have any of those here either. Self-professed don't count.

    [QUOTE]fact: the f22 is real, out there and hasn't been used in Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya. when are we planning to use this thing? when the aliens come down like independence day?[/QUOTE]

    F-22 has been a huge failure. A costly one too. It happens.

    If we judged a litany of social programs the same way, we'd have alot less social programs Bit.:cool:

    [quote]the army is all pack-bots and drones these days it's not the f35 dogfighting[/QUOTE]

    Our Army uses drones. Not sure anyone else does.

    See Bit, a basic disagreement you and I have here is that you beleive the U.S. will never again be in a real Conventional War. You have claimed many times that such Wars (i.e. Vietman, Korea, WWII, etc) will never happen again, are impossible in fact. If you truly believe that, then sure, your view would make sense, as would gutting millitary spending.

    I just don't agree with you. It's the single most basic function of human nature, war and killing your fellow man for some slight or some thing he has you want. I don't doubt for a seconed that the U.S. will be in another knock-down, drag-out, for survival Conventional Plae+Tank+Infantry War one day. And on that day, I hope we're the best, both in Soldiers and in tehcnology.

  17. #57
    [QUOTE=Warfish;4008356]
    See Bit, a basic disagreement you and I have here is that you beleive the U.S. will never again be in a real Conventional War. You have claimed many times that such Wars (i.e. Vietman, Korea, WWII, etc) will never happen again, are impossible in fact. If you truly believe that, then sure, your view would make sense, as would gutting millitary spending.

    I just don't agree with you. It's the single most basic function of human nature, war and killing your fellow man for some slight or some thing he has you want. I don't doubt for a seconed that the U.S. will be in another knock-down, drag-out, for survival Conventional Plae+Tank+Infantry War one day. And on that day, I hope we're the best, both in Soldiers and in tehcnology.[/QUOTE]

    all the technology in the world doesn't change the fact we have an ocean on each side, a mountain range on each side and no natural enemies. unless this war is with Mexico or Canada im not really all that worried. I don't consider Vietnam or Korea to be "real wars" despite all the casualties. WWII was a real war in the sense that it was declared and multi-national.

  18. #58
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,955
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4008390]all the technology in the world doesn't change the fact we have an ocean on each side, a mountain range on each side and no natural enemies. unless this war is with Mexico or Canada im not really all that worried. I don't consider Vietnam or Korea to be "real wars" despite all the casualties. WWII was a real war in the sense that it was declared and multi-national.[/QUOTE]

    An Ocean stopped being a meaningful Defense sometime circa 1951 Bit. Mountains, sometime around 1939.

    End of the day, we are unable to agree because you see me as Paranoid, and I see you as Naive, on the topic of potentiality of future War.

  19. #59
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4008298]I agree with most of what you post, and can appreciate your viewpoint but i've yet to see a compelling argument why the f15/f16/f18 have to be replaced by the f22/f35. just cause it's 30 years old? what are the shortcomings of the current fighters? what do the new 5th generation fighters bring? Who are building their own 5th generations?

    [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_generation_jet_fighter[/url]

    maybe im oversimplifying but seems to me the only one out there is the f22 and it has no enemies.[/QUOTE]


    It is very rare for an old design to be consistently effective. THe B52 is the only one I can think of. But, it would never be used now as originally designed. It is used where there is no enemy airpower or anti aircraft. It is also now potentially used as a stand off cruise missile launch unit. As srted earlier, the Navy version of the F15 (the F14) is no wlonger in service. Doesn't say much for the F15s future.
    The F16 is well over 30 years old and the F18 almost 30. The have relatively short range and speed is ok. The F35 in addition to other things is a stealth fighter plus it has long range. It's called progress.

  20. #60
    [QUOTE=Warfish;4008398]Mountains, sometime around 1939.
    [/QUOTE]

    tell that to the Taliban

    speaking of which let me know when Bin Ladin gets in a jet fighter

    China, Russia and India are not our enemies. they are Allies... at least economically

    a place like iran or nK might be possible enemies... and they can't hang with the f22 let alone the f35.

    end of the day defense is a bigger jobs program than any part of welfare. they are building weapons that no one needs, at 150 million dollars a piece.
    Last edited by bitonti; 04-25-2011 at 01:49 PM.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us