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Thread: Guantanamo secret files show U.S. often held innocent Afghans

  1. #41
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4014200]I have no idea what "that guy" knows, I apparently havn't read what "that guy" wrote.

    I would contest an argument that any American Deaths would have not occured IF and ONLY IF, Gitmo Prison had never existed. If it wasn't Gitmo, it would be whatever Prison we used. If it wasn't the Prison, it's be the War itself. If not the War, just our existence, or history, or some other slight.

    Again, it seems to me a very odd claim that U.S. Soldiers would be treated better if Gitmo hadn't existed.

    "No, Mubar, we can;t behead this one, after all, the U.S. treats our prisoners well!"

    Really?[/QUOTE]

    We are at war vs. terrorists and yet we as a country exhibited the same type of tactics as the very terrorists we condemn? How does that work? Egypt and Libya want democracy because of individual rights and justice. Gitmo is a nightmare and Obama signed an order to close it on day 1 of his Presidency because he didn't understand the nightmare Gitmo truly was and will remain to be. Gitmo was a dumping ground for other countries trash/problems and no one wants them back, even the innocents. Obama can't close Gitmo because the countries who said they would of taken some of the prisoners won't and Congress will not allow any of the prisoners here. Obama was niave to think anyone would take responsibility for the prisoners we have taken over the years.

  2. #42
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    [QUOTE=cr726;4014218]We are at war vs. terrorists and yet we as a country exhibited the same type of tactics as the very terrorists we condemn? How does that work?[/quote]

    Which tactic is that? Beheading? Burning alive?

    Or do you mean Waterboarding? I didn;t think AQ or the Taliban or the IRaqi insurgency were big users of waterboarding, guess I learn something new everyday.

    Beyond the limited subset waterboarded (or humiliated, the horror), the vast majority were treated humanely, provided for in all basic needs and neccessities (for being prisoners) and many eventually released, under two administrations.

    Is that how AQ/Talibad treated captured U.S. soldiers?

    [QUOTE]Egypt and Libya want democracy because of individual rights and justice.[/QUOTE]

    Got your finger on the pulse of the uprisings, eh?

    [QUOTE]Gitmo is a nightmare and Obama signed an order to close it on day 1 of his Presidency because he didn't understand the nightmare Gitmo truly was and will remain to be. Gitmo was a dumping ground for other countries trash/problems and no one wants them back, even the innocents.[/QUOTE]

    And yet he has kept it open.

    [quote]Obama can't close Gitmo because the countries who said they would of taken some of the prisoners won't and Congress will not allow any of the prisoners here. Obama was niave to think anyone would take responsibility for the prisoners we have taken over the years.[/QUOTE]

    EFBO. Everyones fault but Obama.

    At least many on the right admit Bush sucked. It's enlightening that those of the left still hold that Barry O is the messiah, and that it's everyone else who sucks.:rolleyes:

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4014250]Which tactic is that? Beheading? Burning alive?

    Or do you mean Waterboarding? I didn;t think AQ or the Taliban or the IRaqi insurgency were big users of waterboarding, guess I learn something new everyday.

    Beyond the limited subset waterboarded (or humiliated, the horror), the vast majority were treated humanely, provided for in all basic needs and neccessities (for being prisoners) and many eventually released, under two administrations.

    Is that how AQ/Talibad treated captured U.S. soldiers?



    Got your finger on the pulse of the uprisings, eh?



    And yet he has kept it open.



    EFBO. Everyones fault but Obama.

    At least many on the right admit Bush sucked. It's enlightening that those of the left still hold that Barry O is the messiah, and that it's everyone else who sucks.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    Obama being naive and trusting other countries who said they would take prisoners isn't enough for you? He is the President and was naive and should of not signed an order that couldn't of been followed through.

    Prisoners have died in Gitmo and I guess since we didn't do "exactly" as a terrorist group has done there torture we are better?
    [url]http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-26/guantanamo-doctors-ignored-signs-of-prisoner-torture-group-says.html[/url]

    Dude you have become a long winded condescending poster.

  4. #44
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    [QUOTE=cr726;4014267]Obama being naive and trusting other countries who said they would take prisoners isn't enough for you? He is the President and was naive and should of not signed an order that couldn't of been followed through.

    Prisoners have died in Gitmo and I guess since we didn't do "exactly" as a terrorist group has done there torture we are better?
    [url]http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-26/guantanamo-doctors-ignored-signs-of-prisoner-torture-group-says.html[/url]

    Dude you have become a long winded condescending poster.[/QUOTE]

    Dude, you're the one trying to compare "physical and psychological abuse" to beheadings, gang-rapes and mass-murders. . .

  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=OCCH;4014283]Dude, you're the one trying to compare "physical and psychological abuse" to beheadings, gang-rapes and mass-murders. . .[/QUOTE]

    I'm not comparing because there should be no comparison to how a world power treats their prisoners vs. terrorists.

    [QUOTE]An examination of medical records of nine inmates at the U.S. military prison in Cuba revealed clear signs of injuries consistent with torture as defined by a United Nations treaty, and exceeding interrogation limits the U.S. considered legal, according to the report. [/QUOTE]

  6. #46
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    [QUOTE=cr726;4014267]Prisoners have died in Gitmo and I guess since we didn't do "exactly" as a terrorist group has done there torture we are better?[/quote]

    Yes.

    We are better. Far better.


    [quote] Dude you have become a long winded condescending poster.[/QUOTE]

    And you have become a poster worthy of condescention, if not outright ignoring.

    When one compares our treatement to theirs and finds equally, that view is worthy only of derision.

  7. #47
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4014200]I have no idea what "that guy" knows, I apparently havn't read what "that guy" wrote.

    I would contest an argument that any American Deaths would have not occured IF and ONLY IF, Gitmo Prison had never existed. If it wasn't Gitmo, it would be whatever Prison we used. If it wasn't the Prison, it's be the War itself. If not the War, just our existence, or history, or some other slight.

    Again, it seems to me a very odd claim that U.S. Soldiers would be treated better if Gitmo hadn't existed.

    "No, Mubar, we can;t behead this one, after all, the U.S. treats our prisoners well!"

    Really?[/QUOTE]

    No problem with "Gitmo". It's just proven that intelligence derived via torture is more often than not...unreliable. And sending soldiers into the field based on faulty/unreliable intel is bad policy.

  8. #48
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4014298]No problem with "Gitmo". It's just proven that intelligence derived via torture is more often than not...unreliable. And sending soldiers into the field based on faulty/unreliable intel is bad policy.[/QUOTE]

    Please stop using resources funded by my tax dollars to post your nonsensical lib propaganda. Thanks in advance.

    [URL]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/20/AR2009042002818.html[/URL]

  9. #49
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    [QUOTE=Jungle Shift Jet;4014316]Please stop using resources funded by my tax dollars to post your nonsensical lib propaganda. Thanks in advance.

    [URL]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/20/AR2009042002818.html[/URL][/QUOTE]

    And instead use nonsensical Pub propaganda?

    I think not.

    It doesn't work. Sorry. If it did, every law enforcement agency in the world would use it for every crime. But they don't.

    The real world isn't an episode of "24".

  10. #50
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    [QUOTE=cr726;4011579]A child who was a victim of a crime and was taken from his country and placed in a prison for a year [B]when he was found holding a weapon in a complex being raided as an enemy base [/B]is "due process"?[/QUOTE]

    Fixed - and, with that correction, yes.

    Question, CR - you're on that raid and see a teenager holding a weapon. Do you:

    A) Presume he is an enemy combatant and capture him; or

    B) Presume that he was kidnapped, forced into service, and only happened to have picked up the weapon to look at it, after someone else dropped it, precisely at the time of the raid.

    Obviously, the reasonable answer is "A". The only real question raised by this poor kid's situation is whether the truth of his situation was determined with all deliberate speed and whether he was released as soon as possible after it was determined?

  11. #51
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4014329]And instead use nonsensical Pub propaganda?

    I think not.

    It doesn't work. Sorry. If it did, every law enforcement agency in the world would use it for every crime. But they don't.

    The real world isn't an episode of "24".[/QUOTE]

    Obviously you didn't read the link - The Washington Post recounting Obama releasing DOJ/CIA information is "Pub" propaganda?

    [B]...the CIA believes 'the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qaeda has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.' . . . In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including [Khalid Sheik Mohammed] and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques." [/B]

    [B]The memo continues: "Before the CIA used enhanced techniques . . . KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, 'Soon you will find out.' " Once the techniques were applied, "interrogations have led to specific, actionable intelligence, as well as a general increase in the amount of intelligence regarding al Qaeda and its affiliates." [/B]

    [B]Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques "led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles." KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast. The memo explains that "information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the 'Second Wave.' "[/B]

    [B]The memo notes that "[i]nterrogations of [Abu] Zubaydah -- again, once enhanced techniques were employed -- furnished detailed information regarding al Qaeda's 'organizational structure, key operatives, and modus operandi' and identified KSM as the mastermind of the September 11 attacks." This information helped the intelligence community plan the operation that captured KSM. It went on: "Zubaydah and KSM also supplied important information about al-Zarqawi and his network" in Iraq, which helped our operations against al-Qaeda in that country.[/B]

    And libs wonder why they get labeled as dangerously stupid, unpatriotic, etc.

  12. #52
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    [QUOTE=Jungle Shift Jet;4014404]Obviously you didn't read the link - The Washington Post recounting Obama releasing DOJ/CIA information is "Pub" propaganda?

    [B]...the CIA believes 'the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qaeda has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.' . . . In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including [Khalid Sheik Mohammed] and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques." [/B]

    [B]The memo continues: "Before the CIA used enhanced techniques . . . KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, 'Soon you will find out.' " Once the techniques were applied, "interrogations have led to specific, actionable intelligence, as well as a general increase in the amount of intelligence regarding al Qaeda and its affiliates." [/B]

    [B]Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques "led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles." KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast. The memo explains that "information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the 'Second Wave.' "[/B]

    [B]The memo notes that "[i]nterrogations of [Abu] Zubaydah -- again, once enhanced techniques were employed -- furnished detailed information regarding al Qaeda's 'organizational structure, key operatives, and modus operandi' and identified KSM as the mastermind of the September 11 attacks." This information helped the intelligence community plan the operation that captured KSM. It went on: "Zubaydah and KSM also supplied important information about al-Zarqawi and his network" in Iraq, which helped our operations against al-Qaeda in that country.[/B]

    And libs wonder why they get labeled as dangerously stupid, unpatriotic, etc.[/QUOTE]

    [IMG]http://uncrate.com/p/2007/01/jack-bauer.jpg[/IMG]

  13. #53
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    [QUOTE=doggin94it;4014365]Fixed - and, with that correction, yes.

    Question, CR - you're on that raid and see a teenager holding a weapon. Do you:

    A) Presume he is an enemy combatant and capture him; or

    B) Presume that he was kidnapped, forced into service, and only happened to have picked up the weapon to look at it, after someone else dropped it, precisely at the time of the raid.

    Obviously, the reasonable answer is "A". The only real question raised by this poor kid's situation is whether the truth of his situation was determined with all deliberate speed and whether he was released as soon as possible after it was determined?[/QUOTE]

    Doesn't come close to explaining why he was sent to GITMO.

  14. #54
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4014422]Doesn't come close to explaining why he was sent to GITMO.[/QUOTE]

    He really liked cuban food :i_dont_kn

  15. #55
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    [QUOTE=doggin94it;4014365]Fixed - and, with that correction, yes.

    Question, CR - you're on that raid and see a teenager holding a weapon. Do you:

    A) Presume he is an enemy combatant and capture him; or

    B) Presume that he was kidnapped, forced into service, and only happened to have picked up the weapon to look at it, after someone else dropped it, precisely at the time of the raid.

    Obviously, the reasonable answer is "A". The only real question raised by this poor kid's situation is whether the truth of his situation was determined with all deliberate speed and whether he was released as soon as possible after it was determined?[/QUOTE]

    I'd be wrong to presume anything when executing the raid. Is it safe to say the teenager did not do anything in a threatening manner when he was captured and soldiers on site agreed the weapon was not fired.
    Question for you Doggin:
    Is it illegal to have a firearm in Afghanistan?

  16. #56
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    [QUOTE=AlbanyJet;4011440]I thought "Change We Can Believe In" was supposed to have closed Guantanamo by now, right?

    Soon we'll have POWs from Libya there, too!

    I cannot recall a US President who campaigned on so many issues, only to do the exact opposite when he got into the White House.

    Do Obama-2008 voters feel like complete tools, yet?

    "Yes, You Do" :O

    :jets17[/QUOTE]

    I've been hearing a lot of democrats say that they regret voting for Obama in the dem primaries.

  17. #57
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4014422]Doesn't come close to explaining why he was sent to GITMO.[/QUOTE]

    Because that's where they were sending folks captured on the field in Afghanistan?

    You'd rather they have turned him over to someone else? Or built a prison in Afghanistan and tied up units in running and defending it?

  18. #58
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    [QUOTE=cr726;4015127]I'd be wrong to presume anything when executing the raid. Is it safe to say the teenager did not do anything in a threatening manner when he was captured and soldiers on site agreed the weapon was not fired.
    Question for you Doggin:
    Is it illegal to have a firearm in Afghanistan?[/QUOTE]

    Illegal? He wasn't arrested for a crime. He was captured on the field of combat as a result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It happens.

  19. #59
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    [QUOTE=doggin94it;4017882]Because that's where they were sending folks captured on the field in Afghanistan?

    You'd rather they have turned him over to someone else? Or built a prison in Afghanistan and tied up units in running and defending it?[/QUOTE]

    That's were the worst of the worst were suppossed to be sent after being vetted. Thousands of prisoners were and are being held in terrible conditions all over Afghanistan that weren't brought to Gitmo.

  20. #60
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4017910]That's were the worst of the worst were suppossed to be sent after being vetted. Thousands of prisoners were and are being held in terrible conditions all over Afghanistan that weren't brought to Gitmo.[/QUOTE]

    True. Then again, his age might be exactly why he was sent to Gitmo, rather than be turned over to be held "in terrible conditions in Afghanistan"

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