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Thread: Pats Thinking?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFfan View Post
    Why no mention of the fact that the Patriots grabbed an additional first and second rounder in what will be a much deeper draft with a rookie wage scale nonetheless??

    Hey Zippy,

    This was a pretty damn good draft

  2. #22
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    Pats have been stockpiling draft picks for years. Meanwhile they haven't won a playoff game in three years - Brady's prime years I should add.

    But they are going to be fantastic in 2019.
    Last edited by Timmy®; 07-18-2011 at 11:02 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy® View Post
    Pats have been stockpiling draft picks for years. Meanwhile they haven't won a playoff game in three years - Brady's prime years I should add.

    But they are going to be fantastic in 2019.

    It is what it is I guess. I'm not going to argue with you over the semantics of trading down. If trading down 5-10 spots in a round to target a specific guy where you think their value is (and incidentally picking up later picks) is your idea of bad business then I'm not going to change your mind (except to not that the practical effect of this, as between the Jets and Pats, is every Kyle Wilson is McCourty and Gronkowski, every Wilkerson is Solder and Dowling, and so on as long as the Patriots continue this).

    I will take the Pat's outlook the next 5 years over the Jet's any day of the week. The Jets have not exactly been solid drafters the last 2-3 seasons- most of you still hang your hat on Revis, Harris, Ferguson, and Mangold. This is old news. What about Gholston, Wilson, Ducasse, and dare I mention Sanchez?? Everything the Jets have accomplished has been DESPITE Sanchez- with a fantastic offensive line, defense, and gimmick wild cat and misdirection plays to cover for his liabilities. Fine player but I am pretty confident in saying that he will never be a pro-bowler or reach a level of play worthy of where he was picked.

    Bottomline- in my opinion the Jets success the last two seasons is the perfect storm of outstanding drafting 2005-2007, splurging in free agency on guys like Pace and Scott, and trading for very talented yet unwanted guys on the back end of their inexpensive rookie deals. Unfortunately this window is closed. The Jets might get lucky with the new CBA cutting out "dead money" (if it doesn't then I think this goes without saying that the Jets are royally f*cked), but even if it doesn't there is no way the Jets can keep all these players without royally screwing themselves 2-3 years down the road.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy® View Post
    Pats have been stockpiling draft picks for years. Meanwhile they haven't won a playoff game in three years - Brady's prime years I should add.

    But they are going to be fantastic in 2019.
    this is it, in a nutshell.

    they are very likely going to remain competitive even as Brady starts to decline, but the price of doing that was letting some of his prime years go to waste.

    when you have one of the best QB's of all time, it makes no sense to prepare for 'life after Brady.' they should've been cashing in on all their assets and strengthening their current core to chase as many SB's as possible.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtstar View Post
    this is it, in a nutshell.

    they are very likely going to remain competitive even as Brady starts to decline, but the price of doing that was letting some of his prime years go to waste.

    when you have one of the best QB's of all time, it makes no sense to prepare for 'life after Brady.' they should've been cashing in on all their assets and strengthening their current core to chase as many SB's as possible.

    Ok well lets here some things the Patriots did that really constitutes wasting Brady's prime. You keep talking like they are trading top 10 picks for a continuous flow of second and third rounders. What is it? Trading back to grab McCourty instead of taking Dez Bryant? Trading a third round pick last year for a second rounder this year- passing up the chance to draft Everson Griffen? Mel Kiper's best pass rusher!! Oh I know- moving back about 6 spots last year to get Cunningham when they could have moved up and had Sergio Kindle!! Mel Kiper had Kindle ranked as a first rounder!!! How could they pass on Clay Matthews?? Everyone knew he was going to be awesome. I am so glad the Jets drafted an elite franchise type quarterback instead!! Who cares that we have to cover for him with wildcat plays and trick misdirection plays for half our offensive snaps- Mark's personality is perfect for NY!!!

    What makes this even more idiotic is that the Patriots have had some pretty good success- outside of Suh and Bradford (on par with Haden, Earl Thomas, and Berry) I don't think there are any players from last year's draft that look more promising than McCourty and Gronkowski. Vollmer, a late second round pick is generally regarded as the best tackle out of last years draft (see AP second team all pro designation this year). All of this shows there are no sure things in the draft- you do your homework, identify guys that fit your system, and hedge your bets. You don't need a top 10 pick to get pro bowlers, nor does having a top 10 pick guarantee an all pro (or even a career sack).
    Last edited by BFfan; 07-18-2011 at 08:39 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtstar View Post
    this is it, in a nutshell.

    they are very likely going to remain competitive even as Brady starts to decline, but the price of doing that was letting some of his prime years go to waste.

    when you have one of the best QB's of all time, it makes no sense to prepare for 'life after Brady.' they should've been cashing in on all their assets and strengthening their current core to chase as many SB's as possible.
    I hear this echoed here a lot, and honestly don't get it either. Although I agree with BFan's analysis, I'll also chime in how everyone here thought the Pats were going into serious decline in '08 and '09 because the Pats were getting very old, especially on D. Well, guess what? Pats got very young in a short period of time on the fly precisely because Belli is such a wheeler and dealer with his draft picks.More surprisingly, is he rebuilt a team and stayed competitive (partly due to TFB but also some mighty fine drafting.) Brady still has 3-5 prime years left, and probably a couple of servicable ones after that. Yet now he has a young new D and a rebuilt and retooled O (with 2 stud TEs) designed to be competitive in the division. How could they have done any better? Their "current core" had too many aging veterans, many of who retired, (Harrison, Bruschi to name 2) and others who became ineffective. (Moss, Maroney, Adalius Thomas) They went from being one of the oldest teams in th eleague to one of the youngest in only TWO years, and won the division while doing it. Really, who else has done that?
    Last edited by GronkWelkhead; 07-18-2011 at 09:02 PM.

  7. #27
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    we obviously have differing views on the subject, and nothing you or i say will change that.

    i just think that the Pats* would've been better served to cash in on all of those "assets" to improve their core and stay in the hunt for a SB, rather than focus on rebuilding by continuously trading back and into next year so that they have more and more picks.

    they've remained competitive because they have a top 5 QB of all time and the best coach in the business today, but that has only served them right in the regular season and their weaknesses have been exposed in the playoffs.

    as a Jets fan, i'm totally fine with this. let them continue to rebuild while Tom Brady gets older. i'm in no rush to see the Pats* win a SB

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtstar View Post
    we obviously have differing views on the subject, and nothing you or i say will change that.

    i just think that the Pats* would've been better served to cash in on all of those "assets" to improve their core and stay in the hunt for a SB, rather than focus on rebuilding by continuously trading back and into next year so that they have more and more picks.

    they've remained competitive because they have a top 5 QB of all time and the best coach in the business today, but that has only served them right in the regular season and their weaknesses have been exposed in the playoffs.

    as a Jets fan, i'm totally fine with this. let them continue to rebuild while Tom Brady gets older. i'm in no rush to see the Pats* win a SB
    Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree. But I will say, they had the best record in football last year (even though they totally changed the nature of their offense.) How is that not in the hunt for a SB? And but for a freakish set of plays in '07 the would have hoisted their 4th in 6 years. Seems like they know what they are doing in my eyes.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by GronkWelkhead View Post
    Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree. But I will say, they had the best record in football last year (even though they totally changed the nature of their offense.) How is that not in the hunt for a SB? And but for a freakish set of plays in '07 the would have hoisted their 4th in 6 years. Seems like they know what they are doing in my eyes.
    yay!!

    regular season stats are teh awesome!!


    you sound like a Chad Pennington fan

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtstar View Post
    yay!!

    regular season stats are teh awesome!!


    you sound like a Chad Pennington fan
    Lol. I'm surprised you use the familiar Jets fan's response. Contrary to Jet-popular belief, regular season records DO count for something. Your team backed into the playoffs in '09. No denying that. Next time you may not be so lucky. Granted, you had two good wins in the playoffs, but your QB's miserable performance in the reg. season might have cost you big time. And what would a home playoff game, or two, have done for you last year? Yes, the Pats lost when it counted most. But don't go claiming that the season matters not like it's your God-given right to get to the playoffs every year no matter how crappy a reg. season you have. EVERY team's first priority should be to win the division. Then take it from there.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtstar View Post
    we obviously have differing views on the subject, and nothing you or i say will change that.

    i just think that the Pats* would've been better served to cash in on all of those "assets" to improve their core and stay in the hunt for a SB, rather than focus on rebuilding by continuously trading back and into next year so that they have more and more picks.

    they've remained competitive because they have a top 5 QB of all time and the best coach in the business today, but that has only served them right in the regular season and their weaknesses have been exposed in the playoffs.

    as a Jets fan, i'm totally fine with this. let them continue to rebuild while Tom Brady gets older. i'm in no rush to see the Pats* win a SB

    The problem is that it's hard to really respect your opinion when you cannot point to one concrete example of a move that amounted to "wasting Brady's prime" aside from trading a mid third round pick last year. Instead you keep talking in general terms about "moving back" and not "cashing in assets," as if trading back 6-7 spots within a round to target a specific player somehow cost them the playoffs last year. As weak as this argument is, it's not exactly bolstered by the fact that no team in the league has come away with more impact players in the draft the last two years. But I guess your point is that they could have done better, for instance maybe trading half a draft to "cash in" all their assets to grab one of Mel Kiper's top ten players in last years draft? (maybe two of which I would take over McCourty).

  12. #32
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    A few points.

    1- The Patriots do this every year--It has nothing to do with the rookie wage scale. If this was the first year-fine I would agree. But they have been doing this for awhile.

    2-The scale starts this year and boy they needed defensive players. So they could have saved a ton of money, and def players arrive much earlier then offensive IMO.

    3-I think the Patriots are not that good at drafting anymore. Alot of their guys are over hyped based on being patriots.

    As a Jet Fan I could not be happier with the Patriots draft. I can say Ive been very happy about their drafts for awhile now. Its crazy that we out draft them every year now.....

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFfan View Post
    Ah the response of a 10 year old- turn an adult discussion into a bitter and off topic rant (given the time of your post I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were up after a long night of drinking).

    No one is claiming the Patriots recent playoff performances are anything short of disappointing, but this conversation is about their drafting- in which you and several others still cling to comparisons of drafts from 2005-2007 ( of which you wont find a single Patriot fan that claims the Jet's drafts were anything but outstanding). However, I don't think criticism of the Patriots drafts as of late is really all that reasonable, especially in the context that they have completely rebuilt their team while remaining a Superbowl contender.

    On that note, pound your chest all you want about the Jets going 3-2 against the Pats the last two seasons, but as you alluded, wake me up when you win something that matters
    .
    Wake me up when the Patriots win a playoff game. Or win anything meaningful without cheating.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by KR View Post
    A few points.

    1- The Patriots do this every year--It has nothing to do with the rookie wage scale. If this was the first year-fine I would agree. But they have been doing this for awhile.

    2-The scale starts this year and boy they needed defensive players. So they could have saved a ton of money, and def players arrive much earlier then offensive IMO.

    3-I think the Patriots are not that good at drafting anymore. Alot of their guys are over hyped based on being patriots.

    As a Jet Fan I could not be happier with the Patriots draft. I can say Ive been very happy about their drafts for awhile now. Its crazy that we out draft them every year now.....
    This...

    Well said

    When Pioli left, so did the only real talent they had in the front office.

    The media every year jerks off over the Patriot draft, and they have had like 1 good draft in 5 years. They had a chance to hit a homerun in this draft with the players on the board when they did pick, or even move up in the draft to get real players they could have built that team around.

    I'm ecstatic they went after reach after reach, and watching patsfans.com blow up with the motherload of "we drafted who? WTF?" ... was pure comedy, almost as good as trashing that media overhyped team in the playoffs.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by KR View Post
    A few points.

    1- The Patriots do this every year--It has nothing to do with the rookie wage scale. If this was the first year-fine I would agree. But they have been doing this for awhile.

    2-The scale starts this year and boy they needed defensive players. So they could have saved a ton of money, and def players arrive much earlier then offensive IMO.

    3-I think the Patriots are not that good at drafting anymore. Alot of their guys are over hyped based on being patriots.

    As a Jet Fan I could not be happier with the Patriots draft. I can say Ive been very happy about their drafts for awhile now. Its crazy that we out draft them every year now.....
    When was the last year the Jets outdrafted the Patriots- like 2007? This is why its impossible having a discussion about this with some of you. Darius Butler sucks but Kyle Wilson is "promising". The Vernon Gholston debacle never happened and Mayo is over rated. Sanchez is an elite franchise quarterback (just don't pay attention to the fact that the entire offensive gameplan revolves around protecting him). Ducasse might be a starter this year but Vollmer blows- nevermind he was second team AP all pro.

    Outside of maybe the Packers, how many teams have had more success in the draft than the Patriots since 2008-2009. I am hard pressed to think of any team that has brought in anyone that can match the likes of Mayo (all pro), McCourty (pro-bowl), Vollmer (second team AP all pro), and guys who look primed for very promising careers in Chung, Gronkowski, and Hernandez.
    Last edited by BFfan; 07-23-2011 at 10:19 AM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by KR View Post
    As a Jet Fan I could not be happier with the Patriots draft. I can say Ive been very happy about their drafts for awhile now. Its crazy that we out draft them every year now.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post

    When Pioli left, so did the only real talent they had in the front office.

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