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Thread: Mel Kiper's take:

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Jets & Ham View Post
    Here's where the Pats screwed up in my view, trading down in RD's 1 (late) and 3 (late) when they should have stayed put and drafted Mo Wilkerson and Kenrick Ellis for themselves, and of course that also means the Jets wouldn't have snagged either of these players because the Pats had first dibs on both DL's had they not traded out of those spots.

    IMO this will come back to haunt the Pats on both ends, passing on these DL's and allowing them to become Jets.

    When the Pats were winning SB's, I thought their greatest strength not counting the QB and HC was on their D-line where they had dominant starters and rotational DL's who could have started on other teams including the Jets, so they were able to rotate DL's all game long, keep them fresh, and come at you in waves with high quality DL's

    IMO they had an opportunity to replicate that had they drafted Wilkerson and Ellis and that missed opportunity became the Jets opportunity to replicate what the Pats had up front when they were winning SB's

    The Pats screwed up by treating the draft like their the f*cking Cleveland Browns.

    This is a team that is a few playmakers away from being put over the top again. Yet they continue to treat the draft as if their a team that's rebuilding. What good are all of these future picks doing them if their just going to inevitably trade those said picks anyway?

    The Pats keep walking away with a bunch of marginal talent and future picks that they don't even use while Tom Brady gets older and older.

    They had the ammo to move up for a stud like Robert Quinn, Marcell Dareus, A.J. Green, or Julio Jones. They could've stayed put and got a crazy combination like Cameron Jordan/Mark Ingram or Muhammad Wilkerson/Gabe Carimi.


    Instead, they walk away with a project at LT, a crowd of 3rd down backs, a headcase QB who won't contribute for at least 4-5 years (if he does at all), and the 500th TE Belichick has drafted in the past 6 years.

    The only picks I can really give them credit for are Dowling and Cannon. The rest was terrible. Especially when you consider the opportunity they had. Their a Superbowl contender whose window is closing. They should be doing everything to put themselves over the top right now.
    Last edited by Untouchable; 05-27-2011 at 04:58 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFfan View Post
    True to some extent but in the first round you need to take sure thing guys that fit your system. I think Wilkerson is a good fit for the Jets 3-4 which is an attacking and penetrating defense but I don't think Jordan could have cut it in any 3-4 defense- he will be a good fit as a power DE in NO (in the mold of Will Smith.
    No offense, but that sounds like a whole lot of spin to me. Wilkerson is a 315 pound man, he could certainly be stout at the Line of Scrimmage and tie up blockers if the Patriots wanted him to do that. The Jets certainly will be doing so with him at times. Guys like Wilkerson and Cam Jordan could play in any 3-4 defense, IMO.

    Watt, Aldon Smith and Castonzo are all represented by Tom Condon, whom the Patriots refuse to deal with. So, for better or worse, those three may well have been off the Patriots' board entirely, which alone would eliminate some of your possible scenarios. FWIW, I think they actually much preferred Solder to Castonzo anyway and that Watt would have otherwise been a terrible fit for the Pats. Smith would have been better as an OLB candidate, but he went awfully high.
    Refusing to deal with any given agent is just shooting yourself in the foot, and IMO unacceptable if true. So you'd rather take inferior talent rather then deal with a pain in the ass in the negotiating room? Whatever, as a Jets fan I won't complain, but you're priorities are in the wrong place as an organization then.

    But whatever, I'm not going to kill you for not trading up for someone like Watt. Trades are complicated, you don't really know if there was opportunity to move up at a fair rate. It'd be one thing if you passed on him, but you never really had the chance to.

    ----

    My issue with the Pats draft is mainly philosophy though, a team on the brink of the Super Bowl should be more aggressive in the draft then they are....they're constantly content to trade back every year, pick up extra picks for next year, and leave several gaping holes on their roster in the process. At some point, you have to say, we've got a damn good team that could win a Super Bowl if we address "X, Y, and/or Z" and go for it. Get the damn pass rusher already, even if it's not the best "Value" pick. Yeah, ideally the need and the value would match up perfectly, but that's not always the case, and there's nothing wrong with a Super Bowl contender going for need on occasion, trying to put themselves over the top. Moving back and getting a 3rd and 4th string runningback and a backup QB in the 2nd-3rd round isn't getting you to win a Superbowl. Maybe a Brooks Reed might, or a Muhammad Wilkerson might. At some point, man up and go for it.
    Last edited by Ven0m; 05-27-2011 at 10:53 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven0m View Post
    My issue with the Pats draft is mainly philosophy though, a team on the brink of the Super Bowl should be more aggressive in the draft then they are....they're constantly content to trade back every year, pick up extra picks for next year, and leave several gaping holes on their roster in the process. At some point, you have to say, we've got a damn good team that could win a Super Bowl if we address "X, Y, and/or Z" and go for it. Get the damn pass rusher already, even if it's not the best "Value" pick. Yeah, ideally the need and the value would match up perfectly, but that's not always the case, and there's nothing wrong with a Super Bowl contender going for need on occasion, trying to put themselves over the top. Moving back and getting a 3rd and 4th string runningback and a backup QB in the 2nd-3rd round isn't getting you to win a Superbowl. Maybe a Brooks Reed might, or a Muhammad Wilkerson might. At some point, man up and go for it.
    I just think your entire criticism is predicated on the fact a rookie D lineman or a guy like Brooks Reed is going to come in immediately and make a more significant impact than someone already on the roster. While Wilkerson and Ellis fill immediate needs for the Jets and will come in and play significant time whenever football does starts up, I doubt either would be anymore than a situational player this year for the Patriots. I think you are missing the point that the Patriots draft was based entirely on immediate need (aside from the Mallet pick) and filling out the roster this year. OT was a gaping hole heading into the season and Solder is perfect for their scheme (not to mention the fact that Scharneccia is amongst the best- if not the best- at grooming offensive lineman). Your characterization of the running backs as 3rd and 4th string running backs ignores the fact that the only RB under contract is Woodhead, and Vereen and Ridley bring unique and needed skill sets to the table.

    Overall, I don't understand the implications (especially by the Joe Schmoes watching youtube clips online) that the Patriots screwed up or don't know who or what they need to improve their team. Obviously if they wanted Wilkerson, Heyward, or Cam Jordan they had one if not two chances to draft them and would have done so if they thought they could come in and contribute significantly this year. I think many overlook the fact that the Patriot's d-line was decimated by year end- with ty warren, wright, pryor, and brace all on IR and if healthy I think the defensive line is actually one of the deepest positions on the roster. I think it's a little ridiculous to think that a late first round pick, in a lock-out year with no minicamps or playbook work, is going to walk in and perform at a higher level THIS YEAR than some of the players I mentioned above.

  4. #24
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    I loved their Vereen pick...very underrated RB talent in this draft. There were higher rated guys...particularly LeShoure...but he was someone I wanted the Jets to look at if they went RB and I thought he'd be a major steal in the draft.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Much ado about Nothing View Post
    I loved their Vereen pick...very underrated RB talent in this draft. There were higher rated guys...particularly LeShoure...but he was someone I wanted the Jets to look at if they went RB and I thought he'd be a major steal in the draft.
    I'm also really high on Vereen- I think anyone who followed the Patriots' player interviews and meetings leading up to the draft knew he was a likely pick in the late second/early third. The team's biggest issue last year was Green-Ellis's inefficiency on passing downs combined with Woodhead's inability to run in between the tackles except off of draw plays. The presence of either one in the backfield allowed the defense to hone in on defending specific plays. Vereen is an interesting mix with the size and toughness to run in between the tackles in addition to being a more than viable receiver in the passing game and pass protection (31 reps at 225).

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFfan View Post
    I just think your entire criticism is predicated on the fact a rookie D lineman or a guy like Brooks Reed is going to come in immediately and make a more significant impact than someone already on the roster. While Wilkerson and Ellis fill immediate needs for the Jets and will come in and play significant time whenever football does starts up, I doubt either would be anymore than a situational player this year for the Patriots. I think you are missing the point that the Patriots draft was based entirely on immediate need (aside from the Mallet pick) and filling out the roster this year. OT was a gaping hole heading into the season and Solder is perfect for their scheme (not to mention the fact that Scharneccia is amongst the best- if not the best- at grooming offensive lineman). Your characterization of the running backs as 3rd and 4th string running backs ignores the fact that the only RB under contract is Woodhead, and Vereen and Ridley bring unique and needed skill sets to the table.
    I am under the impression that they held Green-Ellis's rights for another year (He's only been in the league 3 years), and him and Woodhead proved to be a good combination last year. I could see taking one runningback, but 2 seems overkill to me (Then again, I also thought the Jets pick of Powell was overkill).

    Unlike many people, I didn't criticize the Solder pick, or the Dowling pick, I thought those were decent selections. My issue is they traded down rather then addressed their needs, IMO, and I get that's what they believe in, but at some point, a team on the brink of the Superbowl needs to go for it.

    Overall, I don't understand the implications (especially by the Joe Schmoes watching youtube clips online) that the Patriots screwed up or don't know who or what they need to improve their team. Obviously if they wanted Wilkerson, Heyward, or Cam Jordan they had one if not two chances to draft them and would have done so if they thought they could come in and contribute significantly this year. I think many overlook the fact that the Patriot's d-line was decimated by year end- with ty warren, wright, pryor, and brace all on IR and if healthy I think the defensive line is actually one of the deepest positions on the roster. I think it's a little ridiculous to think that a late first round pick, in a lock-out year with no minicamps or playbook work, is going to walk in and perform at a higher level THIS YEAR than some of the players I mentioned above.
    Somehow this became about 3-4 DE's, when my criticism had more to do with 3-4 OLB's, a position where the Patriots are clearly lacking. I do think DE is also a need, but certainly a lesser one.

  7. #27
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    Posting the Pats draft grade next to ours is so yesterday... C'mon guys. Stop perpetuating the inferiority complex.

    How good we are isn't based on how we stack up against NE. We just are... who we are.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven0m View Post


    Somehow this became about 3-4 DE's, when my criticism had more to do with 3-4 OLB's, a position where the Patriots are clearly lacking. I do think DE is also a need, but certainly a lesser one.
    Ha perfect. You are making this to easy. I can see passing up on Wilkerson or Heyward at 28 as a potential criticism but PLEASE, name ONE, just one potential "3-4" OLB the Patriots blew it passing on. To me the comedy of this whole thing is the suggestion that somehow jabaal sheard and Brooks Reed are these immediate pro bowl candidates at 3-4 OLB and the Pats blew it this year in not selecting them. Lets hear it: The Patriots really blew it not taking a 3-4 OLB this year. The time is now. Tom Brady only has 5 years left. Brooks Reed is not going to be out of the league in two years as an over rated player with long blonde hair that is only half relevant because he resembles clay matthews.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Jets & Ham View Post
    I argued for weeks leading up to the draft the Jets will NOT select an OLB at #30 because I can't see anything of value at OLB in that spot. I couldn't sell myself on the idea of Brooks Reed that high. I tried, but I couldn't do it
    Reed went 42 it wasn't that far off...

    as for the Pats I don't think it was just their DL. they had Bruschi and Vrabel and a great LB corp. They actually have quite a few DL coming back from injury (Ty Warren) what they lack is that old school 3-4 LB, especially outside.

    i do think... for both the Jets and Pats... it's better to take these players with later picks and hope they develop... than use a 1st rounder and force the issue. too much risk standing up a college DE and expecting instant sacks.
    Last edited by bitonti; 05-29-2011 at 01:13 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    Reed went 42 it wasn't that far off...

    as for the Pats I don't think it was just their DL. they had Bruschi and Vrabel and a great LB corp. They actually have quite a few DL coming back from injury (Ty Warren) what they lack is that old school 3-4 LB, especially outside.

    i do think... for both the Jets and Pats... it's better to take these players with later picks and hope they develop... than use a 1st rounder and force the issue. too much risk standing up a college DE and expecting instant sacks.
    the pats were stacked three deep. we're forgetting law, samuel and especially rodney harrison

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
    the pats were stacked three deep. we're forgetting law, samuel and especially rodney harrison
    McCourty can be a poor man's Law, Warren and Wilfork can be a good D Line...

    when they won they had Bruschi and McGinnest outside, Vrabel and Teddy Johnson inside.

    now.. their LBs are a mess. Cunningham, Mayo, Spikes and Banta-cain? gary guyton is ok... sometimes.

    the whole defense is different but their LBs are the farthest away from when they were great

  12. #32
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    3 of the Pats' LBs are fine...Mayo, Spikes, and Cunningham...like most other teams in the league they need a headliner.

    Warren and Wilfork....I already think Wilfork is well on his way to a HOF career...Warren's not quite that good but we all know he's quality...their Shaun Ellis basically...I wouldn't be surprised if that D didn't suck next year. They've added enough secondary talent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Much ado about Nothing View Post
    3 of the Pats' LBs are fine...Mayo, Spikes, and Cunningham...like most other teams in the league they need a headliner.

    Warren and Wilfork....I already think Wilfork is well on his way to a HOF career...Warren's not quite that good but we all know he's quality...their Shaun Ellis basically...I wouldn't be surprised if that D didn't suck next year. They've added enough secondary talent.
    I think the Pats are more than content with Ninkovich as the other starting OLB. Reminds me a lot of Vrabel before he gained some recognition- not flashy or an impact pass rusher by any means but smart, knows his assignments on every play and most importantly, is very good at dropping into coverage. I think Ninkovich's ability in pass coverage on 3rd down (which is just as crucial as any pass rush) in addition to the anticipated development of Cunningham as "the" pass rusher opposite him are the main reasons the Pats didn't feel inclined to reach for a conversion OLB like Reed or Sheard this year.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFfan View Post
    Ha perfect. You are making this to easy. I can see passing up on Wilkerson or Heyward at 28 as a potential criticism but PLEASE, name ONE, just one potential "3-4" OLB the Patriots blew it passing on. To me the comedy of this whole thing is the suggestion that somehow jabaal sheard and Brooks Reed are these immediate pro bowl candidates at 3-4 OLB and the Pats blew it this year in not selecting them. Lets hear it: The Patriots really blew it not taking a 3-4 OLB this year. The time is now. Tom Brady only has 5 years left. Brooks Reed is not going to be out of the league in two years as an over rated player with long blonde hair that is only half relevant because he resembles clay matthews.
    Jabaal Sheard went 37, Akeem Ayers went 39, Bruce Carter went 40, Brooks Reed went 42 in a pretty decent draft class. Clearly, several other teams valued those players at worst as an early 2, and I'd be willing to bet many of them were on teams boards as a potential Late 1. You could have found one you liked, that can come in and contribute right away as a rookie. Nobody is saying these guys are "immediate pro bowl candidates", but considering your pass rush is laughably bad right now, any of them seems an upgrade over the Rob Ninkovich's of the world. Dude's on his 4th team and yet to make an impact on any of them...Counting on guys like Rob Ninkovich is the kind of **** that gets lesser coaches fired...and don't even get me started on Cunningham. But lets just say I don't think too much of him either.
    Last edited by Ven0m; 05-31-2011 at 07:48 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven0m View Post
    and don't even get me started on Cunningham. But lets just say I don't think too much of him either.
    If you don't think highly of Cunningham, you must think that Michael Oher is the poor man's Harry Boatswain.

    Cunningham-Oher this past year was a mismatch almost on the scale of Reggie White vs. Max Lane in the 1996 SB.

  16. #36
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    Mayo can be great, Cunningham can be good and the rest is garbage.

    Brandon Spikes is not "fine" he's a 2 down run stuffer who can't run. Ninkovich is a ST mascot. They are a far cry from the days of Bruschi, Vrabel, Johnson and McGinnest.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven0m View Post
    Jabaal Sheard went 37, Akeem Ayers went 39, Bruce Carter went 40, Brooks Reed went 42 in a pretty decent draft class. Clearly, several other teams valued those players at worst as an early 2, and I'd be willing to bet many of them were on teams boards as a potential Late 1. You could have found one you liked, that can come in and contribute right away as a rookie. Nobody is saying these guys are "immediate pro bowl candidates", but considering your pass rush is laughably bad right now, any of them seems an upgrade over the Rob Ninkovich's of the world. Dude's on his 4th team and yet to make an impact on any of them...Counting on guys like Rob Ninkovich is the kind of **** that gets lesser coaches fired...and don't even get me started on Cunningham. But lets just say I don't think too much of him either.
    1. You mention Sheard, Ayers, Bruce Carter, and Reed- how many of those guys were drafted by teams to be 3-4 OLB? The answer: Only Brooks Reed. Carter was drafted by a 3-4 team but I imagine he will play ILB and nickel LBer as he is far too small to hold up at the point of attack in a 3-4. Obviously, this doesn't really help your argument that the Patriots passed up viable 3-4 OLBs because these guys were passed up by numerous 3-4 teams and ultimately drafted to play in the 4-3. Despite what Mel Kiper likes to preach, not every pass rusher at the college level is suited to stand up and play in space, with coverage responsibilities nonetheless, in a 3-4.

    2. Your comment that the Patriots "could have found a guy they liked" is flat out stupid. In light of hundreds of hours spent scouting apparently they did not like any of those guys at 28 or 33 (and personally I trust their assessment more than yours). You don't just draft guys for the sake of it, otherwise you are in the same position of need the following year. Personally, I think that the 2012 crop of stout and athletic linebackers looks a lot stronger than the likes of Brooks Reed.

    3. I disagree with your assessment of this being a strong draft. I think this was one of the weakest drafts in years.

    4. As I already mentioned earlier in this thread, I think its highly unlikely a rookie pass rusher would come in and be any more than a rotational 3rd down player. The Patriots invested a high pick in Cunningham last year and I think your assessment of him is a little misinformed- he is going to be a very solid player in the NFL. You also neglect to consider that this is not an ordinary year in the NFL. Right now rookies are missing valuable time in mini camps learning the playbooks and honing their technique. With the complex smoke and mirrors defense the Patriots play I don't think it's that unreasonable for the team to think that in terms of fielding the strongest team for the upcoming season, a guy with experience in the system-even Ninkovich, is a better option than plugging a rookie in at a very difficult position to make the transition into.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    Mayo can be great, Cunningham can be good and the rest is garbage.

    Brandon Spikes is not "fine" he's a 2 down run stuffer who can't run. Ninkovich is a ST mascot. They are a far cry from the days of Bruschi, Vrabel, Johnson and McGinnest.
    1. I don't know why this has turned into a comparison of today's lineup versus the personnel of superbowl winning defenses. I don't think anyone is arguing today's defense stacks up to that, and frankly who cares.

    2. I will say that your comment about Spikes epitomizes both the distinctions in drafting styles between the Jets and Pats and sums up the "logic" of Jets fans. The Jets draft a starting lineup ( a very good one at that). The Patriots build a team. Yes Spikes is a 2 down run stuffer but that is all he is expected to be and he is actually pretty darn good at it. The Patriots have 7-8 different guys that they utilize at linebacker depending on the matchup and down and distance situations.

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