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Thread: Court: No right to resist illegal cop entry into home

  1. #41
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    [QUOTE=Tyler Durden;4029125]Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution[/QUOTE]

    The Fourth Amendment limits the issuance of warrants, and precedent establishes what happens if the Fourth Amendment is violated. The Fourth Amendment doesn't create a right to violently resist searches that are themselves in violation of the Fourth Amendment.

    And that's eminently reasonable, given how much of a gray are Fourth Amendment jurisprudence often occupies.

  2. #42
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    [QUOTE=doggin94it;4029854]The Fourth Amendment limits the issuance of warrants, and precedent establishes what happens if the Fourth Amendment is violated. The Fourth Amendment doesn't create a right to violently resist searches that are themselves in violation of the Fourth Amendment.[/QUOTE]

    Can you passively resist? As in...locking the door and barricading it?

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=pauliec;4029138]I gotta agree with Tyler here. Let's say some IU students are having a party at their house. Nothing crazy, not a huge amount of cars on the street or drunk kids stumbling in and out of the house, but the old lady next door hears music and, knowing college kids live there, calls the cops. Now they can just walk in without a warrant and start arresting underage kids? I think it's BS.

    Correct me if I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]

    Sure, they can walk in, arrest, etc. But the kids all go free thanks to the fact that the search was warrantless, and the cops get sued.

  4. #44
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4029848]Do you guys have a single ounce of mechanical aptitude in you or are you all related to the idiot homeowner I used to get service calls for for tripped GFI's?


    Talk about personal responsibility....but none of you possess the know-how to f*cking change a flapper or remove a washer?


    "I'm sorry honey. I can't figure out why the bathroom outlet dfoesn't work. I'm gonna have to call an electrician."

    Good lord.....:nono:[/QUOTE]

    I do what you do as a primary profession in my spare time, within code and without incident. I haven't come across a plumbing job yet that I couldn't figure out intuitively or with 2 minutes and a Google search.

    Now get back to my actual question and tell me why when state and local governments have building codes, that the federal government has to get involved. Thanks.

  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=shakin318;4029340]It says "no right to resist ILLEGAL cop entry into home." My question is, if the cops enter a home illegally (whether they meet resistance or not), what is the penalty/repercussion to the cops?[/QUOTE]

    1) They get sued and need to pay damages;

    2) Depending on the egregiousness of the case (i.e. it was completely unreasonable for them to think they had [B]any [/B]legal ability or reason to go in), they get suspended or fired;

    3) Really depending on the egregiousness of the case (i.e. they go in and cause physical damage or steal things) they get arrested themselves.

  6. #46
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    To state the Police or any other branch of the government can violate a persons private home with out reason or just cause is a blatant and complete disregard for the constitution.

  7. #47
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4029865]I do what you do as a primary profession in my spare time, within code and without incident. I haven't come across a plumbing job yet that I couldn't figure out intuitively or with 2 minutes and a Google search.[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, OK. Sure you could, buddy. :rolleyes:

    Wanna tell me how to wire a low voltage zone valve to work in conjunction with an outdoor temperature sensor and with a radiant mixing valve in a way so that the boiler will maintain a temp of 160 degrees. Keep in mind that the sidearm hot water heater is the priority zone. Should he end switch on the zone valve be wired to the TT on the boiler or should it be wired to the solenoid on the zone control?

    Maybe that's too much.

    TY's. When can the be piped horizontally?
    Last edited by PlumberKhan; 05-16-2011 at 04:29 PM.

  8. #48
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    [QUOTE=gunnails;4029891]To state the Police or any other branch of the government can violate a persons private home with out reason or just cause is a blatant and complete disregard for the constitution.[/QUOTE]

    The ruling doesn't say that. They [B]can't[/B] violate the home, and if they do, there are consequences.

    Let's make this more concrete for you:

    Two people are in an apartment when the police show up after reports of an argument. The woman says to come in, but the man says no. Can the man resist if the police try to come in? ([B]Note: if the woman does not actually own the apartment, but only the man, a warrantless search may be illegal. But the police have no reason to know that, or to believe the guy if he tells them so. Does he have the right to use force to repel the police who are trying to unlawfully enter his premises?)

    [/B]Let's say the police believe someone inside the apartment needs rescuing, but there is actually nobody else in the apartment (a neighbor reported screams, but it was just a loud TV). With no real exigent circumstances, any search would be unlawful. Does the apartment owner have a right to resist?

    Let's say the police wrongly conclude, without real basis, that there is a threat to someone in the apartment. Can the apartment owner resist?

    Let's say the apartment owner wrongly but reasonably concludes that a warrantless search was illegal, when in fact it was legal (say, because he doesn't know that the police called his wife on the way over, and she said "sure, search the whole place"). He resists. In a state that allows you to resist if the search is illegal, should he be arrested for being wrong about the legality of the search, even though his belief was reasonable?

    Are you starting to see why allowing people to legally resist what they believe to be an illegal search is a poor choice?

  9. #49
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4029944]Yeah, OK. Sure you could, buddy. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    Well formulated answer to the question about federal codes. Keep up the excellent work.

    I'm guessing your diversionary tactics didn't go over well when you were at NASA learning how to glue together PVC.

  10. #50
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4029944]Yeah, OK. Sure you could, buddy. :rolleyes:

    [B]Wanna tell me how [/B]to wire a low voltage zone valve to work in conjunction with an outdoor temperature sensor and with a radiant mixing valve in a way so that the boiler will maintain a temp of 160 degrees. Keep in mind that the sidearm hot water heater is the priority zone. Should he end switch on the zone valve be wired to the TT on the boiler or should it be wired to the solenoid on the zone control?

    Maybe that's too much.

    TY's. When can the be piped horizontally?[/QUOTE]

    You're posting to JI while on a job site?

  11. #51
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4029865]I do what you do as a primary profession in my spare time, within code and without incident. I haven't come across a plumbing job yet that I couldn't figure out intuitively or with 2 minutes and a Google search.

    Now get back to my actual question and tell me why when state and local governments have building codes, that the federal government has to get involved. Thanks.[/QUOTE]


    What is your profession?

    Maybe I can try to belittle it and make me look like an arrogant, condescending a$$hole........the same way you just did to yourself.

  12. #52
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    [QUOTE=sourceworx;4029977]What is your profession?

    Maybe I can try to belittle it and make me look like an arrogant, condescending a$$hole........the same way you just did to yourself.[/QUOTE]

    Actually, if you read the whole thread, I was responding to a guy who attempted to belittle a few people here with comments like [I]"Do you guys have a single ounce of mechanical aptitude in you or are you all related to the idiot homeowner"[/I]

    So I would say when a guy throws out a stupid comment like that, he deserves to be put in his place with an equally stupid response. Especially when you're throwing it out at guys that maybe do know as much or more than you.

    If you must know, my profession calls upon my degrees in electrical engineering and chemical engineering. So yeah, when someone tries to mock an ability to change a shower head, I think I might be able to handle that.

  13. #53
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4029975]You're posting to JI while on a job site?[/QUOTE]

    Nope. I do office work now.

    But then again....let's rail against low water usage plumbing fixtures as an affront to your personal liberty[B][SIZE="5"] in a thread about how cops can march into your house unimpeded. [/SIZE][/B]

    Just a testament to the intelligence of libertarians.

  14. #54
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4030004]If you must know, my profession calls upon my degrees in electrical engineering and chemical engineering. So yeah, when someone tries to mock an ability to change a shower head, I think I might be able to handle that.[/QUOTE]

    So...answer the question, 2 minute Google Man.

    TT or Solenoid?

  15. #55
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4030013]Nope. I do office work now.

    But then again....let's rail against low water usage plumbing fixtures as an affront to your personal liberty[B][SIZE="5"] in a thread about how cops can march into your house unimpeded. [/SIZE][/B]

    Just a testament to the intelligence of libertarians.[/QUOTE]

    Pretty sure you brought up building codes originally. Yet you haven't answered yet why we need the federal ones. Still waiting on that one.

  16. #56
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4030020]So...answer the question, 2 minute Google Man.

    TT or Solenoid?[/QUOTE]

    what does this have to do with cops coming into my house unimpeded? :rolleyes:

  17. #57
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4030022]Pretty sure you brought up building codes originally. Yet you haven't answered yet why we need the federal ones. Still waiting on that one.[/QUOTE]

    Nope. Get a clue, Mr. Chemical Engineer Man


    Original WarghableFish post after I suggested I start a business selling anti-breech door hardware:
    [QUOTE=Warfish;4029479]I think your old job of installing Govt. Approved Toilets and Shower Heads suits you better. Without you, someone might use an extra few ounced of water, and we cannot have that happen![/QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]what does this have to do with cops coming into my house unimpeded? [/QUOTE]

    In other words, there are plumbing jobs that you couldn't figure out intuitively or with 2 minutes and a Google search. :rolleyes:

  18. #58
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4030035]Nope. Get a clue, Mr. Chemical Engineer Man


    Original WarghableFish post after I suggested I start a business selling anti-breech door hardware:




    In other words, there are plumbing jobs that you couldn't figure out intuitively or with 2 minutes and a Google search. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    I'll answer your question right after you answer mine. I'll repeat it again for you, in case you couldn't understand it the first time:

    Why, when we have effective state and local building codes, would we need federal ones?

  19. #59
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4030039]Why, when we have effective state and local building codes, would we need federal ones?[/QUOTE]

    What federal codes are you referring to?




    And again. Your two minutes has been up for a while now. Are your fingers tired? Or is Google too far away for you?

  20. #60
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    [QUOTE=doggin94it;4029956]The ruling doesn't say that. They [B]can't[/B] violate the home, and if they do, there are consequences.

    Let's make this more concrete for you:

    Two people are in an apartment when the police show up after reports of an argument. The woman says to come in, but the man says no. Can the man resist if the police try to come in? ([B]Note: if the woman does not actually own the apartment, but only the man, a warrantless search may be illegal. But the police have no reason to know that, or to believe the guy if he tells them so. Does he have the right to use force to repel the police who are trying to unlawfully enter his premises?)

    [/B]Let's say the police believe someone inside the apartment needs rescuing, but there is actually nobody else in the apartment (a neighbor reported screams, but it was just a loud TV). With no real exigent circumstances, any search would be unlawful. Does the apartment owner have a right to resist?

    Let's say the police wrongly conclude, without real basis, that there is a threat to someone in the apartment. Can the apartment owner resist?

    Let's say the apartment owner wrongly but reasonably concludes that a warrantless search was illegal, when in fact it was legal (say, because he doesn't know that the police called his wife on the way over, and she said "sure, search the whole place"). He resists. In a state that allows you to resist if the search is illegal, should he be arrested for being wrong about the legality of the search, even though his belief was reasonable?

    [B][SIZE="3"]Are you starting to see why allowing people to legally resist what they believe to be an illegal search is a poor choice?[/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]

    ==============================================

    I fully understand that legally resisting law enforcement is a horrible idea.

    Doing so will get you hurt or killed. See: Ruby Ridge/Waco.

    Always obey all commands issued by the Police. Thats my motto.

    What I am saying is that unlawful search and seizure is one of the reasons the revolutionary war was fought.

    Our forefathers fought and many died so that we could in part live free from fear in our own homes.

    In essence, the Fourth Amendment now has an on/off switch. Police can create their own need, demand, or requirement. That means that the cops can use the same knock-knock-open-your-door technique that your parents used when you were a kid.

    What bothers me about the ruling is not that I can't shoot a LEO, more so that I am put at there mercy if and when they ever decide they need to enter my home or search me or my possessions.

    Suing the offenders after the fact does little to return my lost dignity or perceived safety that I should have in my own home, according to the 4th amendment.

    More to the point I just don't like the gist of this ruling. Slippery slope type of thing.

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