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Thread: adults required to have health insurance

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4030211]Why should I have to buy a product from a private company that I do not wish to buy?

    And if it's ok for Health Care, where is the Line? Not in your opinion, but codified somewhere in our Laws and Founding Documents, where si the specific line where the State can't just say "you have to".

    Is there a Line Bit, as you see it?



    And as you've been told repeatedly, Driving is an option. If one wishes to not drive, they can not drive, and avoid the free.

    In addition, Driving is done on Public Roads. My Health is not managed in a public anything.

    These are meaningful differences you consistently overlook because you have no answer for them.



    My body is not societies anything. It's mine and mine alone, the idea my body is ssociaties sickens me to my core...and sscares the **** out of me, for what such a blithe statement says about the speaker.

    [B]But I'll have some fun with you Bit.....following your own logic, the body of a mother and fetus are also societies, so society can then rightfully choose to protect it right? Societies Body, Societies Choice? [/B]

    Lets see you sputter and mumble your way past THAT contradiction.;)[/QUOTE]

    Sorry, but that'isn't consistent with his logic at all. Bit commented that when someone becomes ill the cost of taking care of them becomes society's burden, unless that person has health insurance. That's questionable in itself, but it doesn't relate to your fallacious analogy at all. You made a gigantic illogical leap to the body being a property of society, which was never said or implied. Gotta do better than that. And you've got Bevis clapping for you too like a trained seal. Geez.... :rolleyes:

  2. #22
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    Mandating a product that a huge portion of society can't afford isn't a mandate to just purchase, it's a mandate for society to cover those who can't afford it. That means subsidies, means testing and another layer of government tax, subsidy and corporate money flowing into our pay for play government.

    The reality is we are broke now and health care costs are inflating faster than food and energy. Without a severe limit on the cost of health care aka rationing, or a totally different approach to health care delivery, we will simply be adding a huge new burden onto the federal government and the taxpayer.

    The country is aging and the health care industry will grow and become a bigger and bigger player in not just the delivery of health care but also in the political arena. Those who think that our government will control these corporate interests or the interest of the elderly simply don't understand how our government works.

    Obama is about to run the first Billion dollar campaign. That money is not comming from 10 dollar donations and neither is the money going to help elect your Senator and Congressman.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 05-17-2011 at 04:26 AM.

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4030392]Yes, it is. What's your point?[/QUOTE]

    The gov't still mandates you must learn how to operate the vehicle, it is not simply a choice.

  4. #24
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    What does a car and health insurance have to do with each other. The Govt does not have a right to make you buy health insurance. Besides if you dont have a car you don't need insurance.

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=MnJetFan;4030579]What does a car and health insurance have to do with each other. The Govt does not have a right to make you buy health insurance. Besides if you dont have a car you don't need insurance.[/QUOTE]

    I'm all for you if you do not have either health insurance or enough money to pay for your doctor you do not get healthcare. No free clinices no emergency room care, you need show you can pay before you are treated.

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=cr726;4030582]I'm all for you if you do not have either health insurance or enough money to pay for your doctor you do not get healthcare. No free clinices no emergency room care, you need show you can pay before you are treated.[/QUOTE]

    The other problem is that they are stating the type of coverage you must have. Until Obamacare you could just get a catestrophic policy to cover the really bad stuff and be responsible for paying for prescriptions and well visits. Why do I need to pay ~$18000 a year to cover $1500 worth of expenses if I don't want to? I would be much better served paying out of pocket and getting a cheap policy to cover a disaster.

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=Trades;4030600]The other problem is that they are stating the type of coverage you must have. Until Obamacare you could just get a catestrophic policy to cover the really bad stuff and be responsible for paying for prescriptions and well visits. Why do I need to pay ~$18000 a year to cover $1500 worth of expenses if I don't want to? I would be much better served paying out of pocket and getting a cheap policy to cover a disaster.[/QUOTE]

    You would think you would be better served paying out of pocket, but unless you are an insurance company you get screwed when it comes to pay the bill. The regular guy isn't part of the ridiculous insurance/dr./hospital billing formula, you will pay 12.00 for an aspirin, the bill will crush the avg. person.

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=cr726;4030575]The gov't still mandates you must learn how to operate the vehicle, it is not simply a choice.[/QUOTE]

    Really? I didn't make a choice to learn to operate the vehicle, purchase the car, and my insurance? I was forced to do all that against my will?

  9. #29
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    [QUOTE=cr726;4030602]You would think you would be better served paying out of pocket, but unless you are an insurance company you get screwed when it comes to pay the bill. The regular guy isn't part of the ridiculous insurance/dr./hospital billing formula, you will pay 12.00 for an aspirin, the bill will crush the avg. person.[/QUOTE]

    When I got out of the Air Force in 1992 I was 22 years old and healthy and chose to not pay for insurance because I didn't feel it was worth the money. During the 5 years between then and when I got married and was covered under my wife's policy from work (I was a bartenter and computer consultant so no one paid my way) I was uninsurred.

    I remember badly spraining my ankle playing basketball ($300 for x-rays at a private Urgent Care facility), getting a bad case of poison ivy (~$100 for exam and shot of cortizone at a private Urgent Care facility) and having some knee pain which I saw a Chiropracter for (he charged me $25 a visit). So for 5 years my medical bills were well under $1000 or <$200/year. Even the cheapest plan with high deductable whic wouldn't have covered any of the above would have cost more.

    No $12 asprin, you know they have them over the counter now? :D

  10. #30
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    I have a health insurance policy already and the government wants me and others to pay others health insurance.

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=Trades;4030628]When I got out of the Air Force in 1992 I was 22 years old and healthy and chose to not pay for insurance because I didn't feel it was worth the money. During the 5 years between then and when I got married and was covered under my wife's policy from work (I was a bartenter and computer consultant so no one paid my way) I was uninsurred.

    I remember badly spraining my ankle playing basketball ($300 for x-rays at a private Urgent Care facility), getting a bad case of poison ivy (~$100 for exam and shot of cortizone at a private Urgent Care facility) and having some knee pain which I saw a Chiropracter for (he charged me $25 a visit). So for 5 years my medical bills were well under $1000 or <$200/year. Even the cheapest plan with high deductable whic wouldn't have covered any of the above would have cost more.

    No $12 asprin, you know they have them over the counter now? :D[/QUOTE]

    We're the same age and as you get older and especially with kids dr. visits get expensive. Insurance companies make money from people like you and I because we try to stay healthy and do not go to the dr. unless we really have to, it's the other people who crush the system and those costs are passed onto us.

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=cr726;4030663]We're the same age and as you get older and especially with kids dr. visits get expensive. Insurance companies make money from people like you and I because we try to stay healthy and do not go to the dr. unless we really have to, it's the other people who crush the system and those costs are passed onto us.[/QUOTE]

    What's interesting is that I have a high deductible plan ($5,000) and I was concerned but what is the real benefit is that I am in the BC/BS network so for examle, I go to my DR for an annual physical.

    I pay only $40. HE (The DR.) has contracted to receive "contracted prices.

    This plan works for me currently (under 50) but of course I am concerned moving forward into my 60's for example.

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4030349]This.

    You only left one thing out on the auto insurance fallacy. Not only is driving a choice, but the federal government [I]doesn't[/I] mandate that drivers buy insurance. The states do.

    Again, a huge difference that [b]simple minds[/b] can't seem to grasp.[/QUOTE]

    the difference is that if you wreck your car, society as a whole doesn't pay to get it fixed.

    if a homeless person collapses on the street, and gets wheeled into an ER, that entire visit is paid for by you and me.

    Warfish says driving is optional. Living is not optional. This proves my point. There is inherent risk in living life, and we all share that risk, whether we pay insurance or not. the more people who buy insurance, the less the risk on society as a whole.

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4030567]
    The reality is we are broke now [/QUOTE]

    this is bull by the way. we are still the most powerful and richest country in the world. People like to say we are broke... it's a ludicrous statement.

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4030695]the difference is that if you wreck your car, society as a whole doesn't pay to get it fixed.

    if a homeless person collapses on the street, and gets wheeled into an ER, that entire visit is paid for by you and me.

    Warfish says driving is optional. Living is not optional. This proves my point. There is inherent risk in living life, and we all share that risk, whether we pay insurance or not. the more people who buy insurance, the less the risk on society as a whole.[/QUOTE]

    Isn't that also true of disability, fire, flood, etc., etc., etc. There is an inherent risk of being overweight, drinking, walking in the park at night, riding through a gangs turf with your windows rolled down playing clasical music at full blast.

    Unless specified in the Constitution what is the boundry of personal liberty that the government can dictate?

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4030702]this is bull by the way. we are still the most powerful and richest country in the world. People like to say we are broke... it's a ludicrous statement.[/QUOTE]

    Only ludicrous if you don't believe in inflation which is like not believing in the tooth fairy. We are far from the richest country in the world on many real measurables. We are clearly the most powerful in terms of our military ability.

    We have an awful balance sheet with unfunded liabilities that stretch out for generations that will crush us without either a huge economic expansion or huge cuts in services.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 05-17-2011 at 10:02 AM.

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4030695]the difference is that if you wreck your car, society as a whole doesn't pay to get it fixed.

    if a homeless person collapses on the street, and gets wheeled into an ER, that entire visit is paid for by you and me.

    Warfish says driving is optional.[B] Living is not optional[/B]. This proves my point. There is inherent risk in living life, and we all share that risk, whether we pay insurance or not. the more people who buy insurance, the less the risk on society as a whole.[/QUOTE]

    A lot of dead people beg to differ.

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4030695]the difference is that if you wreck your car, society as a whole doesn't pay to get it fixed.[/quote]

    Sure we do. The Insurance Companies raise their rates to a level to cover damage caused by uninsured drivers. Basic Business 101.

    [QUOTE]if a homeless person collapses on the street, and gets wheeled into an ER, that entire visit is paid for by you and me.[/QUOTE]

    If he is Homeless, i.e. below the Poverty Line, I have no issue with "you and me" covering him.

    The Truly Poor =/= All.

    [QUOTE]Warfish says driving is optional. Living is not optional.[/QUOTE]

    Actually, living is absolutely optional, as argued repeatedly by the Democrat Party in the form of the issues of Abortion and Euthenasia/Dying With Dignity. In simpler terms, suicide makes up a huge portion of our annual dead, so yes, living is entirely optional. Just ask my Dad.

    [QUOTE]This proves my point. There is inherent risk in living life, and we all share that risk[/QUOTE]

    You're simply incorrect. I do not share your risk in any form, and you do not share mine, because we both are capable individuals who take personal responsabillity.

    Your point is effectively an abandonment of personal responsabillity for ones one basic well-being. Health Coverage or Health Savings should be priority #3, right after basic food and basic shelter, for every human being. The fact we do not teach that is the problem here.

    [quote]the more people who buy insurance, the less the risk on society as a whole.[/QUOTE]

    And again, you nor the Federal Govt. has no right to force me to buy something from a private compnay that I do not wish to buy.

    It's be great if yous topped dodging the questions posed you Bit. Where is the line on the power of Govt. here, if they can make you buy private Insurance, what else can they make you buy, and please point to the specific codification in our founding documents that explicitly lays out that limitation.

    If you cannot do so, then you cannot prove any limit exists, and thats at the core of why this should be fought tooth and nail. It is not the role of our Govt. to create a Healthcare Welfare State Ponzi Scheme, supported by the minority to placte the voting majority, and to continue the ongoing abandonment of any personal responsabillity in our society.

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4030695]the more people who buy insurance, the less the risk on society as a whole.[/QUOTE]

    Only if the uninsured are both healthier and there expense to the insured pool actually goes down because they have insurance. Both pretty huge assumptions.

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=southparkcpa;4030680]What's interesting is that I have a high deductible plan ($5,000) and I was concerned but what is the real benefit is that I am in the BC/BS network so for examle, I go to my DR for an annual physical.

    I pay only $40. HE (The DR.) has contracted to receive "contracted prices.

    This plan works for me currently (under 50) but of course I am concerned moving forward into my 60's for example.[/QUOTE]

    Don't be concerned. I am older than you, have a high deductable with a health savings account. Works just fine. I am just guarding against catastrophic illness. My max out of pocket is about $14,000 including premiums. Hey, and that's deductable as you know.
    Hospitals should be for serious emergencies and serious operations. They over charge. Anything else, go to an IMCC or the free clinic which should be a physician pro bono set-up.
    And I believe it should be - "No insurance, no service" unless you want to pay with a credit card (up front).

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