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Thread: Well this is just depressing

  1. #1
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    Well this is just depressing

    I'm glad I graduated from college. But this reaffirms my belief that a college diploma is a very very expensive piece of paper

    And if you read through through the comments, oy how depressing...

    [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/business/economy/19grads.html?pagewanted=print[/url]

    [B][SIZE="3"]Many With New College Degree Find the Job Market Humbling[/SIZE][/B]

    By CATHERINE RAMPELL

    The individual stories are familiar. The chemistry major tending bar. The classics major answering phones. The Italian studies major sweeping aisles at Wal-Mart.

    Now evidence is emerging that the damage wrought by the sour economy is more widespread than just a few careers led astray or postponed. Even for college graduates — the people who were most protected from the slings and arrows of recession — the outlook is rather bleak.

    Employment rates for new college graduates have fallen sharply in the last two years, as have starting salaries for those who can find work. What’s more, only half of the jobs landed by these new graduates even require a college degree, reviving debates about whether higher education is “worth it” after all.

    “I have friends with the same degree as me, from a worse school, but because of who they knew or when they happened to graduate, they’re in much better jobs,” said Kyle Bishop, 23, a 2009 graduate of the University of Pittsburgh who has spent the last two years waiting tables, delivering beer, working at a bookstore and entering data. “It’s more about luck than anything else.”

    The median starting salary for students graduating from four-year colleges in 2009 and 2010 was $27,000, down from $30,000 for those who entered the work force in 2006 to 2008, according to a study released on Wednesday by the John J. Heldrich Center for Workforce Development at Rutgers University. That is a decline of 10 percent, even before taking inflation into account.

    Of course, these are the lucky ones — the graduates who found a job. Among the members of the class of 2010, just 56 percent had held at least one job by this spring, when the survey was conducted. That compares with 90 percent of graduates from the classes of 2006 and 2007. (Some have gone for further education or opted out of the labor force, while many are still pounding the pavement.)

    Even these figures understate the damage done to these workers’ careers. Many have taken jobs that do not make use of their skills; about only half of recent college graduates said that their first job required a college degree.

    The choice of major is quite important. Certain majors had better luck finding a job that required a college degree, according to an analysis by Andrew M. Sum, an economist at Northeastern University, of 2009 Labor Department data for college graduates under 25.

    Young graduates who majored in education and teaching or engineering were most likely to find a job requiring a college degree, while area studies majors — those who majored in Latin American studies, for example — and humanities majors were least likely to do so. Among all recent education graduates, 71.1 percent were in jobs that required a college degree; of all area studies majors, the share was 44.7 percent.

    An analysis by The New York Times of Labor Department data about college graduates aged 25 to 34 found that the number of these workers employed in food service, restaurants and bars had risen 17 percent in 2009 from 2008, though the sample size was small. There were similar or bigger employment increases at gas stations and fuel dealers, food and alcohol stores, and taxi and limousine services.

    This may be a waste of a college degree, but it also displaces the less-educated workers who would normally take these jobs.

    “The less schooling you had, the more likely you were to get thrown out of the labor market altogether,” said Mr. Sum, noting that unemployment rates for high school graduates and dropouts are always much higher than those for college graduates. “There is complete displacement all the way down.”

    Meanwhile, college graduates are having trouble paying off student loan debt, which is at a median of $20,000 for graduates of classes 2006 to 2010.

    Mr. Bishop, the Pittsburgh graduate, said he is “terrified” of the effects his starter jobs might have on his ultimate career, which he hopes to be in publishing or writing. “It looks bad to have all these short-term jobs on your résumé, but you do have to pay the bills,” he said, adding that right now his student loan debt was over $70,000.

    Many graduates will probably take on more student debt. More than 60 percent of those who graduated in the last five years say they will need more formal education to be successful.

    “I knew there weren’t going to be many job prospects for me until I got my Ph.D.,” said Travis Patterson, 23, a 2010 graduate of California State University, Fullerton. He is working as an administrative assistant for a property management company and studying psychology in graduate school. While it may not have anything to do with his degree, “it helps pay my rent and tuition, and that’s what matters.”

    Going back to school does offer the possibility of joining the labor force when the economy is better. Unemployment rates are also generally lower for people with advanced schooling.

    Those who do not go back to school may be on a lower-paying trajectory for years. They start at a lower salary, and they may begin their careers with employers that pay less on average or have less room for growth.

    “Their salary history follows them wherever they go,” said Carl Van Horn, a labor economist at Rutgers. “It’s like a parrot on your shoulder, traveling with you everywhere, constantly telling you ‘No, you can’t make that much money.’ ”

    And while young people who have weathered a tough job market may shy from risks during their careers, the best way to nullify an unlucky graduation date is to change jobs when you can, says Till von Wachter, an economist at Columbia.

    “If you don’t move within five years of graduating, for some reason you get stuck where you are. That’s just an empirical finding,” Mr. von Wachter said. “By your late 20s, you’re often married, and have a family and have a house. You stop the active pattern of moving jobs.”

  2. #2
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    The choice of major is quite important. Certain majors had better luck finding a job that required a college degree, according to an analysis by Andrew M. Sum, an economist at Northeastern University, of 2009 Labor Department data for college graduates under 25.


    ! I had that guy as my professor. He was a real smart dude.

  3. #3
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    Plenty of things here:

    1. There should be a trades school options for whom college is not the answer.

    2. A degree in "Latin American studies" ? Really? :rofl: What does one do with that exactly? Besides breeze through college like its one 4 year long party? :rolleyes:

    2a. Pick a major based on your aptitude, not on how much money you think you can make.

    3. Govt should subsidize those students who have a chance of doing well AND for certain majors (like what NY does for teachers).

    4. Its not luck; its who you know. Who you know >>> what you know, at least 50% of the time. Sad, but true.

  4. #4
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    [QUOTE=quantum;4033031]1. There should be a trades school options for whom college is not the answer.[/QUOTE]

    Yessim. 'Cause us peoples who no goes to colluge is too stupids to handle the book learnin'. That's why we's went and learned to use wrenches.

  5. #5
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4033052]Yessim. 'Cause us peoples who no goes to colluge is too stupids to handle the book learnin'. That's why we's went and learned to use wrenches.[/QUOTE]

    not at all. I know several people whose parents forced them to go to college, then became tradespeople because that's what they really wanted.

    Does EVERYTHING have to be a crusade with you?

  6. #6
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    [QUOTE=quantum;4033056]Does EVERYTHING have to be a crusade with you?[/QUOTE]

    I am..................





    [IMG]http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2009/09/highlander.jpg[/IMG]

  7. #7
    [QUOTE=quantum;4033031]

    [B]2. A degree in "Latin American studies" ? Really? :rofl: What does one do with that exactly? Besides breeze through college like its one 4 year long party? :rolleyes:[/B]
    [/QUOTE]

    Completely agree, I feel like "Studies" majors should be reserved for someone who wants to make it a second major by taking extra classes, it should in no ways be a stand alone major.

  8. #8
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    [QUOTE]Young graduates who majored in education and teaching or engineering were most likely to find a job requiring a college degree, while area studies majors — those who majored in Latin American studies, for example — and humanities majors were least likely to do so. Among all recent education graduates, 71.1 percent were in jobs that required a college degree; of all area studies majors, the share was 44.7 percent.[/QUOTE]

    This is the problem. "Humanities" majors are only fit to teach....Humanities. People who attend college for 7 years wasting their lives and tens of thousands of dollars in financial aid just to graduate with a Doctorate in "Womens Studies", Philosophy, Italian Studies, or some other nonsensical field of "study" that has no practical value beyond being qualified to teach the subject they have a Doctorate in is a joke. It just furthers the problem.

    Ask people with MEDICAL degrees or Engineering, Math, or other "hard" sciences it is to get a job, and you'll find that it isn't all the difficult. Because those degrees are in applied fields that are actually useful to employers.

    My wife has a BA in "Communications". Complete waste of time. She wishes she could just return it for a refund. I was a history major, which pretty much amounted in me being decent at Jeopardy and enjoying the History Channel, but my AS degrees in Emergency Medical Services and Fire Science have proven a heck of a lot more useful in the job market.

    [QUOTE]“I have friends with the same degree as me, from a worse school, but because of who they knew or when they happened to graduate, they’re in much better jobs,” said Kyle Bishop, 23, a 2009 graduate of the University of Pittsburgh who has spent the last two years waiting tables, delivering beer, working at a bookstore and entering data. “It’s more about luck than anything else.”[/QUOTE]

    Oh, and Kyle? Maybe your friends who went to "worse schools" than you are just smarter or were better candidates than you, or have better attitudes and act less entiitled than you - despite their educations at "worse schools"....

  9. #9
    Pretty interesting study, and frankly, not very surprising.

    There are no jobs out there right now. I don't care what anyone says, the economy is still in the tank and businesses still live in fear. They don't want to put out money for new employees.

  10. #10
    [QUOTE=Jet_Engine1;4033081]

    [B]My wife has a BA in "Communications". Complete waste of time. She wishes she could just return it for a refund. I was a history major, which pretty much amounted in me being decent at Jeopardy and enjoying the History Channel, but my AS degrees in Emergency Medical Services and Fire Science have proven a heck of a lot more useful in the job market.
    [/B]

    .[/QUOTE]

    Not too sure I agree with the specification of communications as a waste of time degree now. I.E. I'm an advertising-communications major now which I feel is teaching me things that can be applied to the real world. That's in addition to my second major which is American Studies (I was bored taking the average amount of classes so I take more than the required because it costs no extra money) and while I find those classes fun and interesting I don't see any use for them in the real world.

  11. #11
    [QUOTE=Jetspennyfan;4033095]Not too sure I agree with the specification of communications as a waste of time degree now. I.E. I'm an advertising-communications major now which I feel is teaching me things that can be applied to the real world. That's in addition to my second major which is American Studies (I was bored taking the average amount of classes so I take more than the required because it costs no extra money) and while I find those classes fun and interesting I don't see any use for them in the real world.[/QUOTE]

    What do you want to do when you graduate?


    I have to say, my Political Science degree was pretty damn useless. And I learned zero practical skills for the real world. That's why I went back and got my Masters.

  12. #12
    [QUOTE=pauliec;4033104]What do you want to do when you graduate?


    I have to say, my Political Science degree was pretty damn useless. And I learned zero practical skills for the real world. That's why I went back and got my Masters.[/QUOTE]

    I really want to go into Branding/advertising/media. I know it's broad but I figure I'll try and get any job in that sort of field and just stick with what I like (or what I can get).

    I picked up the American Studies major because I figured it might be a little helpful to know the indepth reasons for the changes in America over the years and I might be able to relate that to an advertising thing somehow.

    I'm also a Journalism minor because a lot of advertisers get their start in journalism/I figured it was important to learn how to write well/tell a story with writing (important to advertising).

    I also am going to be an Economics minor (pretty much just using the intro classes I did for business [which were all cross-listed between business and economics] before I decided it wasn't for me) since I figure that that stuff is important.

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=pauliec;4033104]What do you want to do when you graduate?


    I have to say, my Political Science degree was pretty damn useless. And I learned zero practical skills for the real world. That's why I went back and got my Masters.[/QUOTE]

    What? Political Science? You could run for President!

    :D

  14. #14
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4033059]I am..................





    [IMG]http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2009/09/highlander.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

    Don't go Drunk Catholic Kid on us. We all know that's Warfish... :)

  15. #15
    A degree is just a part of college. What other things did you do? Did you make any sort of contribution or just go to class? Did you play ball? Show any leaderability or hold a position of importance? Do you present yourself well? Can you speak well?
    DO YOU HAVE VALUE?
    Anyone can go to college. BTW, I think a major is somewhat important. But liberal arts - English, history, sociology are not bad. I know a Dow 30 company that only hires these for sales.Most business majors are fine too. These new bizarre majors - AA studies, Latin studies are a total waste.

  16. #16
    [QUOTE=Jetspennyfan;4033110]I really want to go into Branding/advertising/media. I know it's broad but I figure I'll try and get any job in that sort of field and just stick with what I like (or what I can get).

    I picked up the American Studies major because I figured it might be a little helpful to know the indepth reasons for the changes in America over the years and I might be able to relate that to an advertising thing somehow.

    I'm also a Journalism minor because a lot of advertisers get their start in journalism/I figured it was important to learn how to write well/tell a story with writing (important to advertising).

    I also am going to be an Economics minor (pretty much just using the intro classes I did for business [which were all cross-listed between business and economics] before I decided it wasn't for me) since I figure that that stuff is important.[/QUOTE]

    What year are you, and what are your plans for the summer? I would highly suggest doing at least one really good internship during your undergrad career (at least one, but the more the better). Internships look great on your resume, give you real world working experience, and help you to build a good list of contacts. If I could go back and change one thing about my undergrad experience, it would be this.

    It may not even be too late to find something this summer. Check out mediabistro.com for listings in your field.

  17. #17
    [QUOTE=Jetspennyfan;4033110]I really want to go into Branding/advertising/media. I know it's broad but I figure I'll try and get any job in that sort of field and just stick with what I like (or what I can get).

    I picked up the American Studies major because I figured it might be a little helpful to know the indepth reasons for the changes in America over the years and I might be able to relate that to an advertising thing somehow.

    I'm also a Journalism minor because a lot of advertisers get their start in journalism/I figured it was important to learn how to write well/tell a story with writing (important to advertising).

    I also am going to be an Economics minor (pretty much just using the intro classes I did for business [which were all cross-listed between business and economics] before I decided it wasn't for me) since I figure that that stuff is important.[/QUOTE]


    Paulies reco about an internship is right on.
    From what you're saying, you trying to do too many things. Concentrate and focus. Here's the most important thing you can do: Have GREAT communication skills - written and verbal. Writing is not enough. Brand management is verbal. You have to be able to sell.
    I was a marketing VP once. The ability to sell is everything. Every ad agency exec I knew has a marketing background. Nowadays they are the big guns. Copywriters are eh.
    I you can get an internship (Metro NY is great) - superb. If not, get a job selling. Getting used to rejection is a good trait.

  18. #18
    There are companies out there investing $20 billion a year to benefit their customers. That industry is what kids should be attending college for.

  19. #19
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    [QUOTE=pauliec;4033091]Pretty interesting study, and frankly, not very surprising.

    There are no jobs out there right now. I don't care what anyone says, the economy is still in the tank and businesses still live in fear. They don't want to put out money for new employees.[/QUOTE]

    There's a lot in my field right now. I get contacted by head hunters all the time. Many are consulting jobs, but at least i know I can find something if I get laid off.

  20. #20
    college diploma is like what high school diploma used to be

    these days if you want a great job that allows you to make money you need a masters degree

    this is not new... it was like this before the downturn... i'd say about the last 10 years it's been this way

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