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Thread: Obama: Israeli border should return to pre-1967 status.

  1. #61
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4034960]Why should they concede right of return when Israel keeps building ceding land through settlements? Shouldnít they be able to have East Jerusalem as part of the 2 state solution?

    As far as autonomy? Who controls access to water, air space and the sea? Israel does. There is no real autonomy.

    Reality is I donít think either side is invested in a real peace anymore. The Palestinians donít want to cede their rights and Israel has no intention of giving back land supporting a continuous state with water rights and a dual capital in Jerusalem.

    It is what it is I will always support Israel, critisize it's expansion and cruelty but unfortunately the US and the rest of the world has competiting interests in the region and regardless of weather you or I support Israel the US may not always support Israel particularly if they are viewed as South Africa was by the world community.

    I have no doubt they will survive with a more limited US role but you can allready see the changes in Israel from an idealistic mostly secular Jewish State to an armed camp with a bleak future.[/QUOTE]

    The world community generally does not like Israel or Jews for that matter. The South Africa Aparthied crap is pure nonsense. How are the other 22 countries in the ME not Aparthied states? As for the autonomy and negotiations how is this for a starting point. Israel will halt all settlement activities and in exchange Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist. Seems fair. Not even that minor concession is acceptable to the Arabs. Thats why this whole process is so absurd. The Palestinian Arabs have never conceded a single issue. Their leadership has no interest in peace. Never have. To your point on East Jerusalem, in previous negotiations Israeli leaders have all but conceded EJ to the PA. Those talks always ultimately fail when the issue of recognition and right of return are brought up. Until the Pali's come to grips with the reality that they wont be wiping the Israelis off the map they will never agree to peace.

    To make matters worst the "international community" provides incentives for their refugees to stay in their "camps" and collect checks from the UN for sitting around and stewing in the pot of their own anger.

  2. #62
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    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4034976]The world community generally does not like Israel or Jews for that matter. The South Africa Aparthied crap is pure nonsense. How are the other 22 countries in the ME not Aparthied states? As for the autonomy and negotiations how is this for a starting point. Israel will halt all settlement activities and in exchange Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist. Seems fair. Not even that minor concession is acceptable to the Arabs. Thats why this whole process is so absurd. The Palestinian Arabs have never conceded a single issue. Their leadership has no interest in peace. Never have. To your point on East Jerusalem, in previous negotiations Israeli leaders have all but conceded EJ to the PA. Those talks always ultimately fail when the issue of recognition and right of return are brought up. Until the Pali's come to grips with the reality that they wont be wiping the Israelis off the map they will never agree to peace.

    To make matters worst the "international community" provides incentives for their refugees to stay in their "camps" and collect checks from the UN for sitting around and stewing in the pot of their own anger.[/QUOTE]

    You keep using this term it seems fair. Recognition for stopping settlements isn't fair. Recognition as part of a comprehensive agreement is fair. The settlements aren't fair based on the status que they are an ensightment just like shooting rockets are an insightment from the other side. Would Israel agree to stop settlements if Hamas stopped shooting rockets? Don't think so.

    My hope is Israel will elect a more moderate government, the Palestinians will elect a more moderate government and they will work something out that works for both parties. That's been my hope for decades. As a supporter of Israel, I both understand the predicament they face for a practical peace and how the failure of peace ultimately has made Israel a less attractive partner for the US.

    It's not just the world community that doesn't particularly like Israel or Jews, there are plenty of communities in the US that doesn't like Israel or the Jews. The US has plenty of good reasons to support Israel but we also need oil and other stratigic partners in the region and there is real politics at play in the peace process for the the US. You can see it right in this thread.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 05-23-2011 at 04:15 PM.

  3. #63
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4034994]You keep using this term it seems fair. Recognition for stopping settlements isn't fair. Recognition as part of a comprehensive agreement is fair. The settlements aren't fair based on the status que they are an ensightment just like shooting rockets are an insightment from the other side. Would Israel agree to stop settlements if Hamas stopped shooting rockets? Don't think so.

    My hope is Israel will elect a more moderate government, the Palestinians will elect a more moderate government and they will work something out that works for both parties. That's been my hope for decades. As a supporter of Israel, I both understand the predicament they face for a practical peace and how the failure of peace ultimately has made Israel a less attractive partner for the US.

    It's not just the world community that doesn't particularly like Israel or Jews, there are plenty of communities in the US that doesn't like Israel or the Jews. The US has plenty of good reasons to support Israel but we also need oil and other stratigic partners in the region and there is real politics at play in the peace process for the the US. You can see it right in this thread.[/QUOTE]

    I feel certain that if Hamas stopped firing rockets and the Palestinian's as a whole renounced terror then Israel would stop expanding their settlements. That said your points above are valid. It is a difficult situation without an easy solution. The Palestinians will never have a state until they as a people decide to drop their dreams of wiping Israel off the map and principally accept the idea of two states living peacefully side by side. That is likely years if not generations away. In the meantime I think Israel has every right to defend itself. If their strategy is to continue to expand their settlements in order to create enough of a buffer zone against enemy attack so be it. If they are using the settlement expansion as a form of punichment to the Palis for not fulfilling their obligations per Camp David or Oslo so be it.

  4. #64
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    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4035019]I feel certain that if Hamas stopped firing rockets and the Palestinian's as a whole renounced terror then Israel would stop expanding their settlements. [/QUOTE]

    i feel certain we can broker a peace between winstonbiggs and chiefst2000.

  5. #65
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    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4035019]I feel certain that if Hamas stopped firing rockets and the Palestinian's as a whole renounced terror then Israel would stop expanding their settlements.[/QUOTE]

    Have any good stock tips?

  6. #66
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4035086]i feel certain we can broker a peace between winstonbiggs and chiefst2000.[/QUOTE]

    One thing that is certain between Chiefst2000 and I is we both clearly support Israel's right to security, peace and a healthy future and we both see the value of Israel as a stratigic partner of the US in a dangerous world where engagement not isolation is the only path forward.

  7. #67
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    [QUOTE=sunmou;4035230]Have any good stock tips?[/QUOTE]

    This is going to be the best stock tip you ever heard. Ready for it?

    Here goes...

    Don't listen to stock tips!

  8. #68
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    Let's arse rape em' all.

  9. #69
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    Get rid of Hamas and the other murderers and then Israel talks. Nothing else will do. One other thong there is no palestianian state and there never one! It is called Jordan.

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