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Thread: Justices Order California to Shed 30,000 Prisoners

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4035706]Are you suggesting.....[/quote]

    I am not and was not suggesting anything.

    I am outright stating the fact that the Constitution does not define "Cruel and Unususal Punishment", the Courts have.

    Please have the courtesy to read and understand the post next time before clicking reply.

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4035710]I am not and was not suggesting anything.

    I am outright stating the fact that the Constitution does not define "Cruel and Unususal Punishment", the Courts have.

    [/QUOTE]

    Stop walking around the issue, nobody is attacking you I'm actually interested in your opinion.

    The Constitution prohibits it but doesn't define it. Does that mean anything goes or does that mean the Courts who the Constitution authorizes to resolve disputes that come before it under a Constitutional question have the duty to do just that?

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4035719]Stop walking around the issue[/quote]

    My reply was very specific to Bitonti demanding someone "read the Constitution" regarding the issue, and pointed out correctly that the Constitution is not of use in the issue being discussed here.

    It (in general terms) bars C&U, but it does not define it, the Court clearly does and has, so the Court precedent and this court ruling are what counts in discussion of this issue, not the Constitution, Bit's opinion or my own opinions.

    [QUOTE]I'm actually interested in your opinion.[/QUOTE]

    Opinion on what? I have no knowledge of California Penal conditions, and if they rise to the level of C&U or not. As such, I have no opinion to provide. Hence why my reply is as specific as it was to Bitonti.

    [quote]The Constitution prohibits it but doesn't define it. Does that mean anything goes or does that mean the Courts who the Constitution authorizes to resolve disputes that come before it under a Constitutional question have the duty to do just that?[/QUOTE]

    This cannot possibly be a serious question. "Anything goes"? I cannot fathom what would cause you to ask me this question, in this odd way, based on my reply to Bit? Of coure the Court has the authority to decide the case and the definition, as it sees fit.

    I honestly think you have me mistaken for someone else, I'm really not that easily trolled.

    "Anything goes"? :rolleyes:

  4. #24
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    Don't be fooled if they announce they'll only release non violent offenders. They'll release a guy in at the time for car theft who has been locked up 20 times in the past for violent crimes.

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=Buster;4034868][URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/][/QUOTE]

    Just usual government incompetence.
    So one of the highest taxed states fails to maintain its basic obligations. Keeping the criminals locked up.
    Coming up short by a whopping one third.
    Let's see some ideas government should be providing besides basic housing.....

    creating a better system
    Inmate should be a workforce..... producing their own uniforms food and shelter.etc.
    those that participate and behave get much better benefits. Those that don't get less or no benefits.

    Jails should also be one of the most segregated places in the US. To prevent racism and hatred from manifesting itself.
    Other systems should already be in place to keep staff away from the most violent criminal and insane minds..

    Governments across the US spent money in other places are in debt and continue to be a major failure in providing the citizens basic needs. Jail houses and researching better methods in running them.

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=cedk;4035883]Just usual government incompetence.
    So one of the highest taxed states fails to maintain its basic obligations. Keeping the criminals locked up.
    Coming up short by a whopping one third.
    Let's see some ideas government should be providing besides basic housing.....[/QUOTE]

    Doing anything but providing basic anything will cost more money. Most of the failings here are due to overcrowding. The two main obstacles in overcoming that issue are 1) money and 2) NIMBY.

    [QUOTE=cedk;4035883]creating a better system
    Inmate should be a workforce..... producing their own uniforms food and shelter.etc.
    those that participate and behave get much better benefits. Those that don't get less or no benefits.[/QUOTE]

    Inmates can only be a workforce unless they are sentenced. Additionally, they still are entitled to some form of a wage. In NY the company that does many of the things you suggest, CorCraft, is still subject to bidding on contracts to gain "business".

    [QUOTE=cedk;4035883]Jails should also be one of the most segregated places in the US. To prevent racism and hatred from manifesting itself.
    Other systems should already be in place to keep staff away from the most violent criminal and insane minds..[/QUOTE]

    This is so full of faulty logic that it is difficult to even fathom. Jails are not prisons, first of all. They are markedly different. Segregating anyone based on race is a civil rights violation and yes, that carries over to people incarcerated. The only segregation that is permissible is gender, classification and age AFAIK.

    Staff are responsible for the care, custody and control of inmates and prisoners. "Keeping them away" from violent or insane prisoners will not permit staff to fulfill that edict. The prisoner is placed in the housing appropriate to them. If they are violent, then they may be placed in individual cells where their contact is minimized and they will be required to wear locking devices or other security paraphernalia that will lessen their capabilities for committing violence. Same goes for inmates in mental health settings.

    [QUOTE=cedk;4035883]Governments across the US spent money in other places are in debt and continue to be a major failure in providing the citizens basic needs. Jail houses and researching better methods in running them.[/QUOTE]

    I didn't understand this. If you want an example of getting a jail system to run well, look no further than Rikers Island under the leadership of Kerik. I was here for the bad-old days and the turnaround was remarkable.

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=Jetworks;4035960]This is so full of faulty logic that it is difficult to even fathom. Jails are not prisons, first of all. They are markedly different. [/QUOTE]

    I think a lot of times when people sy "jail" they mean "prison" and use the two terms interchangeably. You and I know the difference...you because you work in one and me because I.......er......read a book about it? [IMG]http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o38/fishooked/emoticons/RAGE0112.png[/IMG]


    Yeah. That's it. A book....

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4035969]I think a lot of times when people sy "jail" they mean "prison" and use the two terms interchangeably. You and I know the difference...you because you work in one and me because I.......er......read a book about it? [IMG]http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o38/fishooked/emoticons/RAGE0112.png[/IMG]


    Yeah. That's it. A book....[/QUOTE]

    Yea, I read that book too. Pretty boring read, if I remember. Nothing metro about the characters in it, either.;)

  9. #29
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    Raise taxes!

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=MnJetFan;4036060]Raise taxes![/QUOTE]

    Thats an option. One California does seem to be a big fan of, generally.

    I would prefer to see the State do a top-down review of spending, and do a better job of prioritization, with basic core Govt. services being fully funded first, and tertiary/optional spending being terminated until such a point that core services are fully funded first.

    I would also think a review of sentencing guidelines would be appropriate, to ensure that the "punishment fits the crime". In the zeal of political conveneicne, many laws exist that were popular with the voters, but unrealistic and overly harsh for the actual crimes committed. Drug Laws (posession/use only, no violence) being foremost of course, but there are many others as well. A full audit of the guidelines could also serve to reduce population of criminals who could best be punished through other less costly means, or have their punishments simply be reduced to be more in line with the actual crime they committed.

    As Bit likes to tell me, neither of these hopes are remotely realistic.

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE][QUOTE=Jetworks;4035960]Doing anything but providing basic anything will cost more money. Most of the failings here are due to overcrowding. The two main obstacles in overcoming that issue are 1) money and 2) NIMBY.[/QUOTE]
    Of course it costs more money, but they spent it in areas they should not have. Providing the basic needs of jails and prisons is one of governments first obligations..
    this is a state that just opened 1 billion dollar high school!
    a state and cities that grossly overpaid their employees.. San Diego has been paying life guards up to $150,000 in pay and benefits.
    How can you be one of the highest taxed states and not provide adequate prison space.
    The government and its legislators are incompetent. I'm not saying that the workers are.

    [QUOTE=Jetworks;4035960]


    [QUOTE]This is so full of faulty logic that it is difficult to even fathom. Jails are not prisons, first of all. They are markedly different. Segregating anyone based on race is a civil rights violation and yes, that carries over to people incarcerated. The only segregation that is permissible is gender, classification and age AFAIK.

    Staff are responsible for the care, custody and control of inmates and prisoners. "Keeping them away" from violent or insane prisoners will not permit staff to fulfill that edict. The prisoner is placed in the housing appropriate to them. If they are violent, then they may be placed in individual cells where their contact is minimized and they will be required to wear locking devices or other security paraphernalia that will lessen their capabilities for committing violence. Same goes for inmates in mental health settings.[/QUOTE]
    .[/QUOTE]

    First I did use jail and prisons as interchangeable, but I understand the difference.

    [B]Segregation exists now in California prisons[/B] where racial issues are a major problem.
    They do not put blacks whites and Hispanics in the same cells. They segregate already.
    With such circumstances it is allowed.

    Keeping guards away from some of the prisoners is simply solved with cameras videos and audio. Stop it with the ideas we can do no better with no changes..

    They used to be that way with New York police for years. We can do no better but crime was horrible high for 50 years. Now it's one of the best city police in the world.
    Mayor Giulliana embraced changes not a wee can do no better attitude..

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=cedk;4036197]San Diego has been paying life guards up to $150,000 in pay and benefits.[/QUOTE]

    Interesting.

    How many people go to the beach there every year and how many drown?

    Would be interested to see if they're getting what they pay for....

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4036211]Interesting.

    How many people go to the beach there every year and how many drown?

    Would be interested to see if they're getting what they pay for....[/QUOTE]

    David Hasselhoff and the Bay watch team are ptrolling the beaches of California.............

    How any rational person could conclude that a fulltime lifeguard should earn anywhere near 6 figures is tantamount to the acceptance of high tax, high spend, get on the government payroll mentality that has put us in the position we are in today.

    In 1985 ...Less than 85 Fortune 100 companies had true pension plans. Today, that number is less than 15. But let's make a lifeguard job a GOLD position.

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=Buster;4035672]Hey, we agree.

    Right out of college I worked for a company that did business with the Jamesburg School for boys in NJ.

    Every day I went there was extremely depressing.[/QUOTE]

    For four years my office was across the street from SF's Juvy facility. The HS across the boulevard had to be turned to into an Arts HS (auditions required for acceptance) to keep the turf battles down (the Arts HS wanted to be miles away, down by the Symphony Hall...). I saw a kid jumping on a car kicking the windshield in whilst* the county deputies and workers were running to his location. They have since built an addition to the Juvy facility. I had several lunches with a friend who was a counselor there; it was very depressing for him.
    Last edited by WestCoastOffensive; 05-25-2011 at 02:19 PM.

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=Jetworks;4035992]Yea, I read that book too. Pretty boring read, if I remember. Nothing metro about the characters in it, either.;)[/QUOTE]

    I can understand metro in your case. You are around caged Hampur dudes all day; wash that smell off with some Giorgio! :D

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4035085]scalia is such a blowhard. I wonder how a dude like that actually made it to the SCOTUS. most of the justices control themselves when things don't go their way.

    note the decision didn't say they had to release 30k. they could transfer, new prisons etc.[/QUOTE]

    Scalia was the dissenter. The Democratic appointees voted for it to!

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4035085]scalia is such a blowhard. I wonder how a dude like that actually made it to the SCOTUS. most of the justices control themselves when things don't go their way.

    note the decision didn't say they had to release 30k. they could transfer, new prisons etc.[/QUOTE]

    He's not a blowhard: he objected to applying cruel & unusual punishment to some minor overcrowding and cells the majority felt were too small; the appearance of the courts seemingly running a prison system; and the general abuse of the US Constitution and erosion of freedoms.

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=WestCoastOffensive;4036252]I can understand metro in your case. You are around caged Hampur dudes all day; wash that smell off with some Giorgio! :D[/QUOTE]

    LMAO! How's about some Febreeze?

    [QUOTE=cedk;4036197]

    First I did use jail and prisons as interchangeable, but I understand the difference.[/QUOTE]

    Understood. Realized that after someone else pointed it out to me.

    [QUOTE=cedk;4036197[B]Segregation exists now in California prisons[/B] where racial issues are a major problem.
    They do not put blacks whites and Hispanics in the same cells. They segregate already.
    With such circumstances it is allowed.

    Keeping guards away from some of the prisoners is simply solved with cameras videos and audio. Stop it with the ideas we can do no better with no changes..

    They used to be that way with New York police for years. We can do no better but crime was horrible high for 50 years. Now it's one of the best city police in the world.
    Mayor Giulliana embraced changes not a wee can do no better attitude..[/QUOTE]

    I agree about Giuliani, which is why I mentioned what Kerik did at DOC under his guidance. My point was that all of the problems you mentioned in CA have already been hashed out in NYC, over a decade ago. The decrease in the amount of jail violence from then to now was so monumental that no one could have predicted it in even a best-case scenario. For instance, within 5 years the amount of slashings went from an average of ~100 per month to 228 for the entire year. That's amazing. I think it dipped even lower than that, approaching the 100s. Naturally, assaults on staff went down as well. So, I am very familiar with how much better things can get, I was a part of making it happen.

    The classification system works. Segregation doesn't curb violence, re-arrest does. Placating racial problems through appeasement doesn't work, targeting and confronting the gangs does. Increased searches work, cameras do not. To that point, the increase in cameras (thanks Horn & Schriro) have actually resulted in an uptick in assaults on staff. Inmates simply duff an CO and play the wall right away, thereby making any sort of action on the part of the officer to appear retaliatory. The use of force directive from hell that existed before the big turnaround allowed for this behavior. Funny how things come back around...

    Better has already been done. Soon you will start to see a slide. Then we will have to work twice as hard to re-gain what we already had and lost.

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