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Thread: Forget the gas tax - a driving tax may be next (CNNMoney)

  1. #21
    [QUOTE=Warfish;4036082] irresponsible, deficit-and-debt-fueled fiscal policies in order to maintain political power.
    [/QUOTE]

    i question how bad things really are. the USA has a GDP to debt ratio about 1:1

    that's not so bad. many other countries are way worse. Singapore is supposed to be a shining beacon for Asia is at 1:2.

    Yes Debt can be bad but it also can be a tool... possibly used to invest in the future.

    It's not some sort of plague in and of itself... and having little debt doesn't necessarily mean all is well. China has very little debt, any1 want to move to hong kong?

  2. #22
    It is my opinion Bit that you're missing the point.

    I agree, Debt in and of itself, in isolation, is not per se "bad".

    But the issue of Govt. Revenue and Spending is far more complicated than just "debt or no debt".

    For example, if we fighting WWIII, Debt is just fine.

    If we're funding Cowboy Poetry Rodeo's, Debt (of even a single penny) is NOT fine.

    To me.

    To you, a Cowboy Poetry Roundup could be utterly vital, reasonable, rational and appropriate use of federal taxpayer dollars, worthy of debt to ensure it's existence.

    It's the what and the amount, not our GDP (or any other Nations), that is at point here.

    But we both know and understand, I think, that this is a issue where a Big Powerful Govt., pro-tax, pro-discretionary spending, pro-entitlement liberal such as yourself, and a small-as-possible Govt., anti-tax, anti-discretionary spending, anti-welfare state/anti-Socialsm libertarian such as myself will never see eye to eye. We simply have two different and deely held views on the purpose of Govt, it's role, and it's rights/power over the individual. If we cannot find general agreement on the role/power of Govt., it would be expected we would not find any agreement on the role of Govt. Debt or how and why it's generated. Not a criticism, but a reflection on who you and I are, and why we won;t agree.

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4035541]The reason Roadwork is as expensive as it is is due to the durabillity and tolerences required for heavy comercial use. Car traffic does not warrant the cost/level of durabillity, even in congested/heavy use areas, that we currently mandate.

    If the primary cause of the cost is comercial use, then it would perhaps be appropriate to implement a per-mile fee only on comercial users, those who are using the Roads as railroads use their own rails.

    This would go to levy the appropriate cost on the appropriate cost-generating entities, whilst limiting cost to those who use roads as a profit-maker. it would also even the playing field to some degree bewteen rail and road transporters, making heavy rail a more viable and profitable option for shippers, something good as freight rail is vastly more eco-friendly than road transports. It would also assist in road safety, as less heavy comercial use vehicles lead to safer roads for private vehicle users.

    [/QUOTE]
    such a great point made here

    :clapper:

  4. #24
    [QUOTE=Warfish;4036113]

    For example, if we fighting WWIII, Debt is just fine.

    If we're funding Cowboy Poetry Rodeo's, Debt (of even a single penny) is NOT fine.

    To me.

    To you, a Cowboy Poetry Roundup could be utterly vital, reasonable, rational and appropriate use of federal taxpayer dollars, worthy of debt to ensure it's existence.
    .[/QUOTE]

    i dont even know what a cowboy poetry round up is... is this real? how much is being spent ?

    deficit cutters love to talk about fringe waste but we need to get real the little parts of the budget people love to crow about (NPR) isn't even a drop in the bucket. the military can be half as strong and still be 5x more powerful than any other military in the world. That would save trillions. cutting a cowboy rodeo poetry saves what? 100 dollars?

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4036193]i dont even know what a cowboy poetry round up is... is this real? [/QUOTE]

    It's a red state thing...you wouldn't understand.

  6. #26
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4036193]i dont even know what a cowboy poetry round up is... is this real? how much is being spent ?[/quote]

    Yes, it is real. And yes, the total amount is quite small. But to my way of thinking, the size of a single wasteful program is not the relevant issue here.

    [quote]deficit cutters love to talk about fringe waste but we need to get real the little parts of the budget people love to crow about (NPR) isn't even a drop in the bucket.[/quote]

    I disagree, on the vasis that if an organization cannot manage even the small stuff correctly or efficiently or without corruption, there is no faith that they can or will manage the big stuff any better.

    [quote]the military can be half as strong and still be 5x more powerful than any other military in the world. That would save trillions. cutting a cowboy rodeo poetry saves what? 100 dollars?[/QUOTE]

    We're not in general disagreement on the idea of Millitary spending. But you claim such audits and change/cuts are "unrealistic" and imossible.

    I would postulate that we need, as a people, to move away from the idea of unaccoutable Government, supproted by an unaccoutable burocracy. The expectation of the pople should be that every dollar, much less ever billion, should be accounted for, and the spending of said dollar defendable universally (or as close as possible).

    You're absolutely right, a Cowboy Poetry Roundup may only cost the taxpayer $40,000 or so. Not even a drop. But thats one tiny little project in one State. A mere sliver of the the hoof of the massive porkbeast about in Govt. Spending.

    It comes back to what I say often here. How can I expect the Federal Government to do a good and efficient job running the hundred billion dollar Healthcare Industry, if they cannot even say no to a $40,000 pork project during times such as these? The answer, my friend, is we can't.

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4035538]Privatize the highways and let them collect tolls and maintain them like China does for the most part. Users pay.[/QUOTE]

    6 DAY TRAFFIC JAMS

  8. #28
    [QUOTE=WestCoastOffensive;4036257]6 DAY TRAFFIC JAMS[/QUOTE]

    Overhead electronics like they have all over the place. You don't even have to slow down.

  9. #29
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4035538]Privatize the highways and let them collect tolls and maintain them like China does for the most part. Users pay.[/QUOTE]

    Would that be accompanied by a concurrent reduction of all road-based State and Federal taxation?

    If no, then no. As a paid-user, what would convince me to support a new system that would cost me more, but provide me the same or less?

    Why not simply treat Roads and Transportation funding like every other possible spending option, and have the Govt. (State and FederaL) decide where it's priority should be compared to other spending options? Is this such a radical concept?

    Some States, I should also point out, are doing just fine on Roads. VA, for example, is doing a great job, and actively upgrading the major NoVA Interstates, Bridges and highways as it is.

    Traffic remains bad, not because of a failure of the State to build or maintain it's roads, but because of a failure of local zoning boards to implement rational and reasonable zoning restrictions, leading to a glut of high-volume housing being built and sold before any public infrastrture can be built or upgraded to support it.

    I find Zoning, and the vast corruption involved in the process on the local and State level, to be a far more fruitful and interesting concept to explore than Highway Funding tbh, when it comes to our ongoing transportation disasters in our major metropolitan and suburban locales.

  10. #30
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    China is a craphole that's sure to be the epicenter of whatever avian/simian/reptilian flu that will wipe out 2/3's of their automaton population.

    We don't want to be like them. Ever.




    If you really want to fix traffic, take away 1/2 of people's licenses. They shouldn't be driving anyway. 1/2 of the people in this country lack the hand/eye coordination to successfully play a single round of f*cking PacMan...but they drive.

  11. #31
    [QUOTE]=Warfish;4036265]Would that be accompanied by a concurrent reduction of all road-based State and Federal taxation?[/QUOTE]

    You would certainly hope so to the degree that the Fed and States wouldn't be financing these roads. Additionally the State and Fed would collect corporate tax from these private companies on their proffits.


    [QUOTE]Why not simply treat Roads and Transportation funding like every other possible spending option, and have the Govt. (State and FederaL) decide where it's priority should be compared to other spending options? Is this such a radical concept?[/QUOTE]

    Agree

  12. #32
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4036267]China is a craphole that's sure to be the epicenter of whatever avian/simian/reptilian flu that will wipe out 2/3's of their automaton population.

    We don't want to be like them. Ever.




    If you really want to fix traffic, take away 1/2 of people's licenses. They shouldn't be driving anyway. 1/2 of the people in this country lack the hand/eye coordination to successfully play a single round of f*cking PacMan...but they drive.[/QUOTE]

    You vastly underestimate the typical American Driver.

    From observation, most Americans can drive while drinking coffee, checking their e-mail while talking on the phone. I have seen many women doing all of these things while putting on lipstick or eye makeup. I also contend that Americans are the best drivers as a group in the world.

  13. #33
    Pay by the mile is more liberal "Ivory Tower" crap. Never happen. Invasion of privacy and people wouldn't stand for it. Plus how do you execute it? Meter in a car? Who checks it? Who pays to have it installed? Too complex.

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4036353]You vastly underestimate the typical American Driver.

    From observation, most Americans can drive while drinking coffee, checking their e-mail while talking on the phone. I have seen many women doing all of these things while putting on lipstick or eye makeup. I also contend that Americans are the best drivers as a group in the world.[/QUOTE]

    I respectfully disagree.

    I commute ~2hours each day. From what I personally observe at least 50% of the drivers on the road are atrocious drivers. Not because they lack the hand-eye coordination. But because they lack good judgement.

    The driving tests in this country are fundamentally flawed. DMV worries about B.S. issues, like parallel parking and adjusting your mirrors, when it should be testing your reactions to given driving situations.

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