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Thread: Judge Rules Loughner not competent to stand trial

  1. #1

    Judge Rules Loughner not competent to stand trial

    Link: [url]http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/05/25/arizona.loughner.competency/index.html?hpt=T1[/url]

    I knew this Mother F'in piece of SH$% would get an insanity plea. Their going to re-evaluate in September to see if he is fit to stand trial, but its not lookin good. So this POS will get to spend his days in a ward watching TV, playing ping pong and breathing fresh air while his victims are dead or disabled for life!
    Gotta love our justice system.

  2. #2
    [QUOTE=scottyrado;4036440] So this POS will get to spend his days in a ward watching TV, playing ping pong and breathing fresh air while his victims are dead or disabled for life!
    Gotta love our justice system.[/QUOTE]

    i've never understood why revenge is considered the same as justice. killing this man might make society a safer place... but it won't bring back those he's killed.

  3. #3
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4036594] killing this man might make society a safer place... but it won't bring back those he's killed.[/QUOTE]

    hah?


    :dunno:



    Can we settle on choice A then? Seems like a good deal.


    :yes:



    -

  4. #4
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4036594]i've never understood why revenge is considered the same as justice. killing this man might make society a safer place... but it won't bring back those he's killed.[/QUOTE]

    How would you punish him, specificly?

    Easy to snipe, harder to put oneself out there and make a declarative statement. So Bit....what is your punishment in this case?

    What outcome would lead to "Justice", as you see it, and not "revenge"?

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    Maximum security with enforced medication to manage this creature, and if he improves to the point of competence, re-sentence as a "normal" heinous killer. To me, anyone who commits deliberate murder should be judged insane in some respect and therefore it should not be a criterion for sentencing. If anything, the insane killer is far more dangerous than the guy who kills his wife to marry his secretary. Most of the time...

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    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4036658][B]Maximum security with enforced medication to manage this creature, and if he improves to the point of competence, re-sentence as a "normal" heinous killer. [/B]To me, anyone who commits deliberate murder should be judged insane in some respect and therefore it should not be a criterion for sentencing. If anything, the insane killer is far more dangerous than the guy who kills his wife to marry his secretary. Most of the time...[/QUOTE]

    You had me on board with the first sentence, lost me after that. There are differing levels for the broad media term "insanity". Some are serious conditions and require a specific, measured approach in how to deal with them, legally. I feel slapping a catch-all label on "anyone who commits deliberate murder" would marginalize the severity of some of these conditions. The legal ramifications, even beyond the criminal justice system, would be potentially damaging.

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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4036594]i've never understood why revenge is considered the same as justice. killing this man might make society a safer place... but it won't bring back those he's killed.[/QUOTE]

    so you're saying what? re-amination of the corpses of those killed is the only real justice?

  8. #8
    How about a dull sword. It won't bring the dead back but he will join the other scum.

  9. #9
    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4036735]so you're saying what? re-amination of the corpses of those killed is the only real justice?[/QUOTE]

    I dont think "real" justice can ever be had in this case and many others like it. Even if we subscribe to an eye for an eye, this dude only has 2 eyes. a mass murderer can't be killed over and over... for every time he's killed.

    There is a blind need for revenge (which is an evolutionary trait) and there is an idea of justice and I don't think they are the same. what is justice for this guy? I don't think we can exact it in this world.

  10. #10
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4036807]I dont think "real" justice can ever be had in this case and many others like it. Even if we subscribe to an eye for an eye, this dude only has 2 eyes. a mass murderer can't be killed over and over... for every time he's killed.

    There is a blind need for revenge (which is an evolutionary trait) and there is an idea of justice and I don't think they are the same. what is justice for this guy? I don't think we can exact it in this world.[/QUOTE]

    Ok, so I'll ask you again.

    [QUOTE=Warfish;4036602]How would [U]you[/U] punish him, specificly?[/quote]

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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4036807]I dont think "real" justice can ever be had in this case and many others like it. Even if we subscribe to an eye for an eye, this dude only has 2 eyes. a mass murderer can't be killed over and over... for every time he's killed.

    There is a blind need for revenge (which is an evolutionary trait) and there is an idea of justice and I don't think they are the same. what is justice for this guy? I don't think we can exact it in this world.[/QUOTE]

    I'm not in support of the death penalty either, but what should be done? Let him walk the streets freely?

    It seems to me that's what your option is. Just like every other stance you take. "That's just how it is. There's nothing we can do. So do nothing".

  12. #12
    [QUOTE=Warfish;4036830]Ok, so I'll ask you again.[/QUOTE]

    he is severely mentally ill, they should try to get him to a state where he can stand trial. it might never happen.

    if this guy really is crazy, (as determined by professionals) killing a crazy man might make everyone feel good but it's not civilized.

    crazy people do get put away... and avoid terrible punishment. look at the dude that shot Reagan i think he's still rotting away and will continue to rot.

  13. #13
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4036882]he is severely mentally ill, they should try to get him to a state where he can stand trial. it might never happen.

    if this guy really is crazy, (as determined by professionals) killing a crazy man might make everyone feel good but it's not civilized.

    crazy people do get put away... and avoid terrible punishment. look at the dude that shot Reagan i think he's still rotting away and will continue to rot.[/QUOTE]

    How compassionate of you.

    I would have a judge review the evidence of his guilt, and make a finding of guilt (did he do what is alleged) or innocence.

    If guilty (which he unquestionably is), I would execute him. Not in ten years, on the spot.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4036890]How compassionate of you.

    I would have a judge review the evidence of his guilt, and make a finding of guilt (did he do what is alleged) or innocence.

    If guilty (which he unquestionably is), I would execute him. Not in ten years, on the spot.[/QUOTE]

    Fish, I support the death penalty, an expedient one at that, too. However, if there is a legitimate mental illness at play here, that's a punishment that would likely come right off the table as far as options go. Of course there are extenuating circumstances that could put it back on, like if the guy was already under care and did something like come off his meds. But if there was a serious mental break of some kind the guy needs to be put away, perhaps until, as LIL suggested (shudder), he is deemed fit to stand trial for his actions. Just because he is unfit now doesn't mean he will be forever.

    Just my $1.380.

  15. #15
    [QUOTE=Jetworks;4036972]However, if there is a legitimate mental illness at play here, that's a punishment that would likely come right off the table as far as options go.
    Just my $1.380.[/QUOTE]

    Appreciate your viewpoint.

    I simply do not share it.

    Punishment (IMO) is for the crime committed, not the motivation (or lack therof) behind it.

    Mental Illness is (again, IMO) an abused excuse in our Criminal Justice System, and is not (again, IMO) a legitimate excuse for having committed a crime, nor a reason to waylay appropriate and expedient punishment for that crime.

    His illness, if real at all, does not excuse his actions or reduce hid danger and cost to society. He execution will not bring anyone back (The Bitonti argument), but his execution, immediately, will end any danger he poses, and reduce societal costs for futre treatment, just to get him sane enough to get tossed in jail for life.

    He killed those people. The details are IMO irrelevant. Crucify his ass.

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4037008]Appreciate your viewpoint.

    I simply do not share it.

    Punishment (IMO) is for the crime committed, not the motivation (or lack therof) behind it.

    Mental Illness is (again, IMO) an abused excuse in our Criminal Justice System, and is not (again, IMO) a legitimate excuse for having committed a crime, nor a reason to waylay appropriate and expedient punishment for that crime.

    His illness, if real at all, does not excuse his actions or reduce hid danger and cost to society. He execution will not bring anyone back (The Bitonti argument), but his execution, immediately, will end any danger he poses, and reduce societal costs for futre treatment, just to get him sane enough to get tossed in jail for life.

    He killed those people. The details are IMO irrelevant. Crucify his ass.[/QUOTE]

    Interesting. So do you feel there should also be blanket sentences for specific crimes, regardless of the motivations or severity? Kind of goes hand-in-hand.

    I agree that the use of mental illness as a defense is exploited all too often in the legal system. That said, the punishment of someone who is incapable of understanding what they did or was not sentient enough to be aware of their actions should be locked away in an appropriate facility.

    Perfect example of what I am talking about is the Sky Walker case in Ohio. You believe this boy is capable of being responsible for his actions and if the death penalty is proposed, be put to death? And you know I'm not baiting you Warfish, I am honestly curious.

    [url]http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/12/kent_state_professor_trudy_ste.html[/url]

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    [QUOTE=Jetworks;4036661]You had me on board with the first sentence, lost me after that. There are differing levels for the broad media term "insanity". Some are serious conditions and require a specific, measured approach in how to deal with them, legally. I feel slapping a catch-all label on "anyone who commits deliberate murder" would marginalize the severity of some of these conditions. The legal ramifications, even beyond the criminal justice system, would be potentially damaging.[/QUOTE]

    You're right, I was being a bit too flip. All I'm saying is that deliberate or premeditated murder (as opposed to impulse/heat of passion murder) should be sentenced to prison regardless of the state of the murderer. If he's criminally insane, that makes him MORE dangerous, not less. Put him away for life or execute. I have no interest in creating a category for psychiatrists to ply their ambiguous trade, and I say that as someone who has been a mental health clinician for the past 27 years.

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    [QUOTE=Jetworks;4037143]Interesting. So do you feel there should also be blanket sentences for specific crimes, regardless of the motivations or severity? Kind of goes hand-in-hand.

    I agree that the use of mental illness as a defense is exploited all too often in the legal system. That said, the punishment of someone who is incapable of understanding what they did or was not sentient enough to be aware of their actions should be locked away in an appropriate facility.

    Perfect example of what I am talking about is the Sky Walker case in Ohio. You believe this boy is capable of being responsible for his actions and if the death penalty is proposed, be put to death? And you know I'm not baiting you Warfish, I am honestly curious.

    [URL]http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/12/kent_state_professor_trudy_ste.html[/URL][/QUOTE]

    By that argument, no animal who attacked a human would be put to death because they lacked understanding of what they did or weren't "sentient" enough to be aware.... Tragic case, but a kid who would kill his mother under these circumstances is a total menace to society and should either be placed forever in a maximum security prison or executed. He is unsalvagable and should be removed from the world one way or the other.

  19. #19
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    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4037172]By that argument, [B]no animal[/B] who attacked a human would be put to death because they lacked understanding of what they did or weren't "sentient" enough to be aware.... Tragic case, [B]but a kid who would kill his mother under these circumstances is a total menace to society and should either be placed forever in a maximum security prison or executed. He is unsalvagable and should be removed from the world one way or the other.[/B][/QUOTE]

    Wow. The frightening thing is that you are no doubt 100% sincere in that assessment. You are equating the rights of a mentally disabled human being to those of an animal and feel that those who suffer from any kind of condition like that and commit a crime are "unsalvagable" (sic) and should be imprisoned or exterminated. Seriously, just wow. I'd like to chalk the whole thing up to a blinding ignorance on your part, but the language you used says otherwise. You feel people like this are beneath you.

    You know what? You're a disingenuous poseur jerkoff. Next time you want to climb on your sanctimonious high-horse and crow about equality, persecution and the rest of your down-trodden liberal battle hymns, I'll be sure to give you a gentle nudge about this post and how you feel mentally disabled people should be tossed away like so much garbage because the did something wrong that they couldn't' possibly understand.

    EDIT- Holy fvck!! I just read this!!!

    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4037167]You're right, I was being a bit too flip. All I'm saying is that deliberate or premeditated murder (as opposed to impulse/heat of passion murder) should be sentenced to prison regardless of the state of the murderer. If he's criminally insane, that makes him MORE dangerous, not less. Put him away for life or execute. I have no interest in creating a category for psychiatrists to ply their ambiguous trade, [B]and I say that as someone who has been a mental health clinician for the past 27 years.[/B][/QUOTE]

    You have this kind of apathetic attitude about this case and you are in the mental health field? That is beyond frightening to someone like me with a mentally disabled child. It's that kind of attitude that leads parents of disabled children to commit murder/suicides. The thought of leaving their children in the hands of "professionals" such as yourself is gut-wrenchingly frightening. I pray my daughter winds up in the care of significantly more empathetic individuals than yourself. You would have fit in great at Willowbrook with that attitude.
    Last edited by Jetworks; 05-26-2011 at 08:08 PM.

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=Jetworks;4037195]Wow. The frightening thing is that you are no doubt 100% sincere in that assessment. You are equating the rights of a mentally disabled human being to those of an animal and feel that those who suffer from any kind of condition like that and commit a crime are "unsalvagable" (sic) and should be imprisoned or exterminated. Seriously, just wow. I'd like to chalk the whole thing up to a blinding ignorance on your part, but the language you used says otherwise. You feel people like this are beneath you.

    You know what? You're a disingenuous poseur jerkoff. Next time you want to climb on your sanctimonious high-horse and crow about equality, persecution and the rest of your down-trodden liberal battle hymns, I'll be sure to give you a gentle nudge about this post and how you feel mentally disabled people should be tossed away like so much garbage because the did something wrong that they couldn't' possibly understand.[/QUOTE]

    I think it was you who described such perpetrators as lacking "sentience," not me. I was merely pointing out that you were describing an animal, not a human being. On the other hand, I would sustain my opinion that the Walker case is a prime example of a life without parole/death penalty case. A severely autistic, impulsive, violent killer of his own mother (who died because she gave him love) doesn't leave much room for rehabilitation. You would have more likelihood of rehabilitating Charles Manson than him and I think you know it.

    Now I didn't say anything about [U]all[/U] mentally ill or mentally disabled people and how they should be treated by society. I don't see someone who is mentally of developmentally disabled as less than me at all. In fact I use the same yardstick fo their criminal behavior as I would myself. To the extent that someone is in need of support, supervision, and structure, I think it's a reflection of a civilized society to provide these resources. To the extent that one of the developmentally disabled is an unpredictable killer, I think the needs of society outweigh his rights to be treated by a different yardstick. You want special rules. I don't.

    The rest of your attempts at insult are just vacuous. And I'm not even sure what you're talking about because they don't reflect my views at all... so quote away.
    Last edited by long island leprechaun; 05-26-2011 at 08:17 PM.

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